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Club Should Demand VAR in Scottish Football


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16 hours ago, cockles1987 said:

Better explanation here.

https://www.fifa.com › refereeing › law_...PDF
Law 14 The Penalty Kick - FIFA.com

Interesting read on the rules. If I've picked up the below correctly then a penalty rebounding off a post could not be scored by the original taker when the keeper doesn't get a hand on it. Didn't know that one

 

If, after the penalty kick has been taken:

the kicker touches the ball again (except with his hands) before it has touched

another player:

• an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team, the kick to be taken

from the place where the infringement occurred (see Law 13 – Position of

Free Kick)

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Just like any free kick, corner kick, goal kick and throw in. Someone else needs to touch the ball before you are allowed to touch it again. [emoji106]
Makes perfect sense when you dissect it, but don't think I'd have been aware about it in the heat of the moment
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3 hours ago, DXBBud said:

There we have it, the old "things even out over a season" argument. 

Living abroad, the only games I got to see were those on telly or a couple that I watched on SMTV, the rest were followed in real time online. I'm sure we got the rub of the green at times, but I can't recall many examples of where we benefited from clearly questionable refereeing decisions or multiple penalties that we should not have been awarded, never mind getting them in one game.

The catalogue of incompetence and incorrect decisions over the course of the play-offs alone was utterly staggering, from blatant attacking corners being given as goal kicks to red cards that never were or should have been, free kicks against us while Arab players got away with the same "offences" over and over.

We all joke about OF conspiracy, and favouring "big" teams who think they have a God given right to be in the top flight. I'm no paranoid, tin foil helmet wearer, but when you see posts like that above from the United forum it has to provoke clubs into greater discussion on the quality of officiating in Scottish football amongst those in control as the consequences of the play-offs could have been very different from where we sit now . 

The argument isn’t specifically based on that. It’s based on it slowing down the beautiful game and it not being reliable in eliminating controversy. They aren’t stand alone points it’s an accurate observation in we’ll get some calls for and some calls against. 

Bottom line is ends justifying the means. Do I think costing us the free flowing nature of football that separates us from a lot of other sports justifies some (not all) more correct decisions. Not by a long shot. 

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11 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

The argument isn’t specifically based on that. It’s based on it slowing down the beautiful game and it not being reliable in eliminating controversy. They aren’t stand alone points it’s an accurate observation in we’ll get some calls for and some calls against. 

Bottom line is ends justifying the means. Do I think costing us the free flowing nature of football that separates us from a lot of other sports justifies some (not all) more correct decisions. Not by a long shot. 

Slowing the game down was spouted by many people, especially at its initial introduction.

Since then, overall, that's not an issue.

The important issue is it gets more decisions correct.

Free flowing football........................aye, if you play video games. :lol:

 

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13 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Slowing the game down was spouted by many people, especially at its initial introduction.

Since then, overall, that's not an issue.

The important issue is it gets more decisions correct.

Free flowing football........................aye, if you play video games. :lol:

 

Having watched games with VAR it categorically is and likely always will be an issue. 

The problem for me is awful/ bias referring. Change that, should be easy enough. Bring back the foreign referees, make them full-time with income incentives linked to performance.  

Edited by bazil85
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9 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Having watched games with VAR it categorically is and likely always will be an issue. 

The problem for me is awful/ bias referring. Change that, should be easy enough. Bring back the foreign referees, make them full-time with income incentives linked to performance.  

Having watched many games with VAR it's a great improvement to the obvious issues of human error. 

I'm done with you, no time for the endless ping pong you thrive on...................:byebye

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7 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Having watched many games with VAR it's a great improvement to the obvious issues of human error. 

I'm done with you, no time for the endless ping pong you thrive on...................:byebye

I’m not going to change my opinion on this, I’m not sure why it’s so important to you that I do :lol:

i have given an opinion, you’re the one that’s actively engaged to try and change that, clearly you thriving on it. 

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IF VAR was introduced I would hope referees' fees would be reduced as they wouldn't be taking the major decisions alone. In fact why not go the whole way and reduce the number of officials. VAR  would be there to assist the man in the middle so why have assistant referees? 

So we have one referee and a guy to stop managerial shenanigans. You could use a pub bouncer for that..

Pay them both a couple of hundred at most and bob's yer auntie. VAR pays for itself. 😂 

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13 hours ago, bazil85 said:

The argument isn’t specifically based on that. It’s based on it slowing down the beautiful game and it not being reliable in eliminating controversy. They aren’t stand alone points it’s an accurate observation in we’ll get some calls for and some calls against. 

Bottom line is ends justifying the means. Do I think costing us the free flowing nature of football that separates us from a lot of other sports justifies some (not all) more correct decisions. Not by a long shot. 

Surely the game is only beautiful if it is being administered and officiated fairly and to the mutual benefit of all participants and stakeholders, otherwise it is simply a means of a few being allowed to lord it over those on the outside of their "inner circle"?

There can be no denying that the standard of refereeing that is allowed to prevail in Scotland week after week is absolutely atrocious, with inexplicable decisions being made to the detriment of those on the receiving end. There was the start of some noise from clubs this season about the problem, but it should not be allowed to just drift away and be forgotten over the summer because the same officials will be making the same poor decisions again come next season.

If the price of addressing such a fundamental problem in order to achieve a more even outcome for all concerned is for games to be paused momentarily when a major decision needs to be reviewed, then so be it. Hasn't done any harm to rugby or tennis or even football where it has been used in my view. Guess their governing bodies are just more interested in operating on a level playing field.

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I'm not one to criticise refs after games. They are only human, and it is incredibly difficult to get every call right when things are happening so fast (and nowadays you have players cheating thrown in to the mix as well).
However, over the two games there have been a series of utterly baffling head-scratching "are you f**king serious?" decisions that could have seen us relegated. Not least yesterday we had a perfectly good goal chopped off, a penalty awarded against us, a red card against us, and two red card calls for United not given - every single one of them clearly the wrong decision!
If these are the best refs the SFA can provide then its clear there is a massive problem in Scotland.
Surely we need to look at bringing in VAR and bring in expertise from overseas to run both the VAR system and the SFA's dysfunctional appeals and compliance system.
These things are always said to be "too expensive for Scottish football" but its a multi-million pound industry in this country, and every club already has multiple cameras at every game. VAR installed on a smaller budget might bring some problems but it can't be worse than the nonsense we have been subjected to this season from the 4 penalties at Ibrox to Beaton's attempt to relegate us yesterday!
I'd expect the club to be making some noise over this in the coming days, and to appeal Nazon's red card whether he is going to be staying here or not.
There should have been 3 United red cards.

I hate VAR other than that great post.
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Some of the the best thing about football is the controversy and quick flowing nature of the game. Generally things even out over a season. It’s also been shown on many occasions VAR doesn’t work it just moves the controversy and slows the game. 
Hopefully it’s nowhere near Scottish football for a long time to come. 
Doesn't happen often but we agree on this.
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There is a place for VAR, it clearly has already highlighted and  reversed and overturned many key real time refereeing decisions. The question is does it get rolled out universally ( economic and logistical arguments ) versus reserve it for World Cups  and major finals etc. !?

VAR is no panacea to the games ills however , unless every single refereeing decision is scrutinised and put up for review.........games of football could last hours on end.

How many times have we all seen referees awarding soft to non existent free kicks to change the direction and flow of a game. To award very dubious free kicks resulting from pushing and pulling in the box simply to correct their initial wrong award of a corner or redress their award of what they realise was a dodgy call. It's so frustrating and we all know it goes on in the game, its an accepted part of the game flow, even though most observers know its wrong, its accepted, then followed with howls of derision at the officials.

Referees themselves will in the main, mostly call it as they see it ( sometimes not of course ) but unless VAR is universally rolled out in the game, it will simply exist to continue to divide opinion.

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3 hours ago, DXBBud said:

Surely the game is only beautiful if it is being administered and officiated fairly and to the mutual benefit of all participants and stakeholders, otherwise it is simply a means of a few being allowed to lord it over those on the outside of their "inner circle"?

There can be no denying that the standard of refereeing that is allowed to prevail in Scotland week after week is absolutely atrocious, with inexplicable decisions being made to the detriment of those on the receiving end. There was the start of some noise from clubs this season about the problem, but it should not be allowed to just drift away and be forgotten over the summer because the same officials will be making the same poor decisions again come next season.

If the price of addressing such a fundamental problem in order to achieve a more even outcome for all concerned is for games to be paused momentarily when a major decision needs to be reviewed, then so be it. Hasn't done any harm to rugby or tennis or even football where it has been used in my view. Guess their governing bodies are just more interested in operating on a level playing field.

Football has existed in not too different a format for over 150 years, are you saying it’s never been the beautiful game until the introduction of VAR?

I fully appreciate there is a problem with officiating in this country, for me slowing down and breaking-up the game isn’t the answer, it impacts one of the fundamentals that makes this the best sport in the world. 

Again it’s just my opinion, I never see myself buying into VAR

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9 minutes ago, cockles1987 said:
23 minutes ago, bazil85 said:
Football has existed in not too different a format for over 150 years, are you saying it’s never been the beautiful game until the introduction of VAR?
I fully appreciate there is a problem with officiating in this country, for me slowing down and breaking-up the game isn’t the answer, it impacts one of the fundamentals that makes this the best sport in the world. 
Again it’s just my opinion, I never see myself buying into VAR

Remind us, when did the TV get invented?

What’s your point? 

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1 minute ago, cockles1987 said:

Just wondered if you knew that they couldn't have VAR 150 years ago due to them not having TV.

Having seen many sports evolve with the use of TV I think if used properly it is beneficial. emoji106.png

Of course I did, it’s a very strange point to make IMO. Football has been shown on tv for decades with the capability of some form of VAR going back that long. It has always been the beautiful game as far as I’m concerned without it  

I’m sure you do and that’s fine, that’s your opinion. Mine is I think the flowing nature of football is fundamental and VAR has hindered not improved the sport since its inception.

It’s far from the only change that I think will do this. Sin bin, no rebounds at penalties as soon to be introduction examples. 

Green cards, timed water breaks as other recent ones. 

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bazil, as usual, sticking with a blinkered view about the flowing nature of football.

Has he ever watched football? 

Many games are less than this mythical free-flowing idea. 

If there's a major error by a referee it can take quite some time for the appealing players to be persuaded to stop their whining.

Imagine any team, especially us, were in a serious match that a human error cost us a cup game or safety in the league.

Aye, the good of the game. 

 

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30 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Football has existed in not too different a format for over 150 years, are you saying it’s never been the beautiful game until the introduction of VAR?

I fully appreciate there is a problem with officiating in this country, for me slowing down and breaking-up the game isn’t the answer, it impacts one of the fundamentals that makes this the best sport in the world. 

Again it’s just my opinion, I never see myself buying into VAR

I'm absolutely not saying that football was not the beautiful game before VAR. The problem isn't just with officiating either, as problems also stem from players who can't act quickly enough to con referees to gain an advantage or influence decision making by nefarious means because of the money at stake in the modern game. We used to only ever see the worst of that sort of nonsense in European competitions and international matches but with every team now fielding an international mix I don't see anything beautiful about that sort of crap in every league in the modern game, quite the opposite in fact.

Think about how football would change if a ref was regularly heard to speak to Neymar and the like the way Nigel Owens spoke to Stuart Hogg at St James' Park in the last Rugby World Cup  - to paraphrase "you want to roll around like that come back here next week, do it again and you'll be dealt with", then dish out cards for repeat offences. 

Football could follow the example of rugby where players are brought up to respect officials, and are penalised territorially for extreme offences. A serious clamp down on abuse of officials, and piss-taking by players to teach them that they won't get away with it etc. could also lead to referees being less pressured and as a result being more able to concentrate on getting decisions right first time. Then again, the refs would need the backing of the governing body to support that approach, and what are the chances of that message coming out of Hampden in the foreseeable future?

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40 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

bazil, as usual, sticking with a blinkered view about the flowing nature of football.

Has he ever watched football? 

Many games are less than this mythical free-flowing idea. 

If there's a major error by a referee it can take quite some time for the appealing players to be persuaded to stop their whining.

Imagine any team, especially us, were in a serious match that a human error cost us a cup game or safety in the league.

Aye, the good of the game. 

 

Bazil as usual entitled to his opinion like everyone else. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind on this just giving my view. People won’t change my mind on it either, there’s nothing about VAR or officiating that’ll do that.

Not sure why you seem so hell bent on wanting to change my view... 

I have never once said all games are completely free flowing with no exception. It is however a complete statement of fact that VAR has slowed down decisions that would have been much quicker had it just been a ref. Partly what I base my opinion on, sorry it pains you I’m allowed a different one from you. :unsure:

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36 minutes ago, DXBBud said:

I'm absolutely not saying that football was not the beautiful game before VAR. The problem isn't just with officiating either, as problems also stem from players who can't act quickly enough to con referees to gain an advantage or influence decision making by nefarious means because of the money at stake in the modern game. We used to only ever see the worst of that sort of nonsense in European competitions and international matches but with every team now fielding an international mix I don't see anything beautiful about that sort of crap in every league in the modern game, quite the opposite in fact.

Think about how football would change if a ref was regularly heard to speak to Neymar and the like the way Nigel Owens spoke to Stuart Hogg at St James' Park in the last Rugby World Cup  - to paraphrase "you want to roll around like that come back here next week, do it again and you'll be dealt with", then dish out cards for repeat offences. 

Football could follow the example of rugby where players are brought up to respect officials, and are penalised territorially for extreme offences. A serious clamp down on abuse of officials, and piss-taking by players to teach them that they won't get away with it etc. could also lead to referees being less pressured and as a result being more able to concentrate on getting decisions right first time. Then again, the refs would need the backing of the governing body to support that approach, and what are the chances of that message coming out of Hampden in the foreseeable future?

Again I’m not denying the issues with our game, I’m not being told anything on this issue I’m not already aware of. It won’t however change my opinion that VAR isn’t the answer. 

- better full-time, performance assessed officials with no clear affiliation to Scottish clubs 

- tough sanctions on players that cheat 

- I personally would be a fan of the rugby and other sports approach where when the balls out of play time is stopped. That would mitigate time wasting which I also think hinders the free flowing game 

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VAR is definitely needed in the game. We could have relegated with some of those poor decisions.

Likewise, my Belgian side lost in a playoff to qualify for Europe on Sunday. 2-1 up going into the 20th minute, we received a red card for a dive, leading to the equalising penalty and leaving us down a man for 70 minutes - unsurprisingly we lost 3-2. The ref had no decent view because our guy’s hand was in front of the opposition player, who made it look like he was pulled down (the shirt was not grabbed at any point). VAR gives the referee the angles he can’t physically see, and thanks to that, it may well have cost us the European place we were aiming for (it’s hard to say what would happen over another 70 minutes, but we had the advantage).

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49 minutes ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

VAR is definitely needed in the game. We could have relegated with some of those poor decisions.

Likewise, my Belgian side lost in a playoff to qualify for Europe on Sunday. 2-1 up going into the 20th minute, we received a red card for a dive, leading to the equalising penalty and leaving us down a man for 70 minutes - unsurprisingly we lost 3-2. The ref had no decent view because our guy’s hand was in front of the opposition player, who made it look like he was pulled down (the shirt was not grabbed at any point). VAR gives the referee the angles he can’t physically see, and thanks to that, it may well have cost us the European place we were aiming for (it’s hard to say what would happen over another 70 minutes, but we had the advantage).

You're wasting your time. 

Bazil is a one thought pony.

He regurgitates his post/view endlessly.

No ability to see others view and will reply time after time with mindless repetition.

Better talking to the trees. 😉

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4 hours ago, faraway saint said:

You're wasting your time. 

Bazil is a one thought pony.

He regurgitates his post/view endlessly.

No ability to see others view and will reply time after time with mindless repetition.

Better talking to the trees. 😉

Do you understand It’s just a different opinion and I'm not questioning yours? It’s almost like you’re going out your way to pick me out because it differs from you. 

Why do I have to share your opinion on this exactly? :unsure:

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