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Why has the Director of Football failed?


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16 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

 


Most of them were regulars last season and supplemented with Andreu.

Whether or not they will be the first choice XI is irrelevant. They should have been good enough to beat these teams!

 

In the same starting 11, how many of them were regulars after January? The starting line-ups for the last two games were weak with the bench for the Albion game pretty much to be used for injuries only. 

Perhaps you're right, perhaps our players thought so too, I retain my opinion that it is an arrogant attitude and perhaps :rolleyes: it worked against us during those two matches. 

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19 minutes ago, pod said:

If they had beaten those teams, would you have be happy going into the season with our team:unsure:     Obviously not.

At least now JG knows what he has available to him and get it sorted, even if it has to take him until the end of the window.

Don't think anyone is claiming they would be. 

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10 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

In the same starting 11, how many of them were regulars after January? The starting line-ups for the last two games were weak with the bench for the Albion game pretty much to be used for injuries only. 

Perhaps you're right, perhaps our players thought so too, I retain my opinion that it is an arrogant attitude and perhaps :rolleyes: it worked against us during those two matches. 

For the Albion Rovers game. 

Cooke 

Mullen

Flynn

Magennis 

P Mcginn

Baird 

Hladky 

+ two new signings for the new season. 

Only MacPherson & Erhahon weren't regular starters, both played in back four for the game and kept a clean sheet. 

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1 minute ago, bazil85 said:

For the Albion Rovers game. 

Cooke 

Mullen

Flynn

Magennis 

P Mcginn

Baird 

Hladky 

+ two new signings for the new season. 

Only MacPherson & Erhahon weren't regular starters, both played in back four for the game and kept a clean sheet. 

Cooke couldn't really be described as a being a regular starter last season, Djorkaeff is still in his bedding in period - so that makes 7 (I'll give you Andreu) first team picks being played in a position they're comfortable with (again I'm giving you P. McGinn)  and an emergencies only bench.I was on N/S over the weekend but when I saw our line-up I didn't  feel it was a team that could be described as  strong favourites to beat AR over 90 minutes.

Anyway as ever were going around in circles

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30 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Cooke couldn't really be described as a being a regular starter last season, Djorkaeff is still in his bedding in period - so that makes 7 (I'll give you Andreu) first team picks being played in a position they're comfortable with (again I'm giving you P. McGinn)  and an emergencies only bench.I was on N/S over the weekend but when I saw our line-up I didn't  feel it was a team that could be described as  strong favourites to beat AR over 90 minutes.

Anyway as ever were going around in circles

Cooke was first choice striker in the play offs against Dundee United plus Erhahon was a regular for most of last season. MacPherson started a number of games last season as well.

The 7 that Baz listed, plus Erhahon and Andreu should have been good enough to beat Albion Rovers.... even with a weak bench!

I think it was a reasonable assumption to make that we should qualify from the group without the need to rush making signings!

Edited by Wendy Saintss
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50 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Cooke couldn't really be described as a being a regular starter last season, Djorkaeff is still in his bedding in period - so that makes 7 (I'll give you Andreu) first team picks being played in a position they're comfortable with (again I'm giving you P. McGinn)  and an emergencies only bench.I was on N/S over the weekend but when I saw our line-up I didn't  feel it was a team that could be described as  strong favourites to beat AR over 90 minutes.

Anyway as ever were going around in circles

You said after January, did Cooke not feature in all our last four games on the trot including a hat-trick against an SP side. He also scored against Dunfermline  

By your logic on Djorkaeff all new signings that weren’t in SP last season would be the same so how could it be Gus or GLS fault? 

Again the defenders are irrelevant I’d say because we kept three clean sheets. 

There is no doubt we should have been beating teams 3 & 4 leagues below us with what it seems we agree on is a majority SP squad. Would you say the players your debating are lower than L1 level? 

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Looks like Saint's panicking and scraping bottom of the barrel for signings now..a Kilmarnock reserve for left back, Centre half who hasn't kicked a ball, centre forward from ICT...im sure that JG had all of these on his wish list...not...thank feck i never bought a season ticket as this is as good a relegation squad as i have ever seen if these signings go through...

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3 minutes ago, gstretchuk said:

Looks like Saint's panicking and scraping bottom of the barrel for signings now..a Kilmarnock reserve for left back, Centre half who hasn't kicked a ball, centre forward from ICT...im sure that JG had all of these on his wish list...not...thank feck i never bought a season ticket as this is as good a relegation squad as i have ever seen if these signings go through...

Much better 2005 style fishing attempt than your last effort... Steve Brookstein fans would be very proud of you. 😁 

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3 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

You said after January, did Cooke not feature in all our last four games on the trot including a hat-trick against an SP side. He also scored against Dunfermline  

By your logic on Djorkaeff all new signings that weren’t in SP last season would be the same so how could it be Gus or GLS fault? 

Again the defenders are irrelevant I’d say because we kept three clean sheets. 

There is no doubt we should have been beating teams 3 & 4 leagues below us with what it seems we agree on is a majority SP squad. Would you say the players your debating are lower than L1 level? 

You said Cooke was a "regular starter last season" - he started 5 league games if you count the play-offs so I'd say he wasn't a regular starter. I'd also say any top-flight team with him as a regular starter will be down in the regular mix.

Not all new signings - I split Djorkaeff from Andreu because the latter had been to the clubs training camp in Spain and the entire build-up to the LC whereas the former arrived less than 48 hours before our opener. 

Defence is a team effort these days if the midfield had to focus on what was behind them it would have impacted on what happened up-front - 3 tight games with only one goal and that from the.penalty spot.

11 starters plus 7 subs is 18 players so I wouldn't agree we had a majority top flight squad - the 16 players we named against Albion Rovers (and remember we had to make an emergency substitution after 5 minutes) do not IMO  make a team which "should be beating" Albion Rovers. 

To go back to the DoF role GLS said the appointment of a DoF was to prevent the mistakes of Summer 2018 from re-occurring (his words) and on that count this summer has been a failure

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52 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

Cooke was first choice striker in the play offs against Dundee United plus Erhahon was a regular for most of last season. MacPherson started a number of games last season as well.

The 7 that Baz listed, plus Erhahon and Andreu should have been good enough to beat Albion Rovers.... even with a weak bench!

I think it was a reasonable assumption to make that we should qualify from the group without the need to rush making signings!

You're only in this argument so you can start posting "Sack Goodwin" if we have a worse start to the League campaign than last season! :jerrry

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Guest TPAFKATS
You said Cooke was a "regular starter last season" - he started 5 league games if you count the play-offs so I'd say he wasn't a regular starter. I'd also say any top-flight team with him as a regular starter will be down in the regular mix.
Not all new signings - I split Djorkaeff from Andreu because the latter had been to the clubs training camp in Spain and the entire build-up to the LC whereas the former arrived less than 48 hours before our opener. 
Defence is a team effort these days if the midfield had to focus on what was behind them it would have impacted on what happened up-front - 3 tight games with only one goal and that from the.penalty spot.
11 starters plus 7 subs is 18 players so I wouldn't agree we had a majority top flight squad - the 16 players we named against Albion Rovers (and remember we had to make an emergency substitution after 5 minutes) do not IMO  make a team which "should be beating" Albion Rovers. 
To go back to the DoF role GLS said the appointment of a DoF was to prevent the mistakes of Summer 2018 from re-occurring (his words) and on that count this summer has been a failure


You said Cooke was a "regular starter last season" - he started 5 league games if you count the play-offs so I'd say he wasn't a regular starter. I'd also say any top-flight team with him as a regular starter will be down in the regular mix.
Not all new signings - I split Djorkaeff from Andreu because the latter had been to the clubs training camp in Spain and the entire build-up to the LC whereas the former arrived less than 48 hours before our opener. 
Defence is a team effort these days if the midfield had to focus on what was behind them it would have impacted on what happened up-front - 3 tight games with only one goal and that from the.penalty spot.
11 starters plus 7 subs is 18 players so I wouldn't agree we had a majority top flight squad - the 16 players we named against Albion Rovers (and remember we had to make an emergency substitution after 5 minutes) do not IMO  make a team which "should be beating" Albion Rovers. 
To go back to the DoF role GLS said the appointment of a DoF was to prevent the mistakes of Summer 2018 from re-occurring (his words) and on that count this summer has been a failure


Depends on what you regard the mistakes of summer 18 to be [emoji57]
IF you regard the mistakes to be spunking the transfer budget on a bunch of duffers of which only one is still with us then this summer isn't a failure... not yet at least!
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Just now, Bud the Baker said:

You said Cooke was a "regular starter last season" - he started 5 league games if you count the play-offs so I'd say he wasn't a regular starter. I'd also say any top-flight team with him as a regular starter will be down in the regular mix.

Not all new signings - I split Djorkaeff from Andreu because the latter had been to the clubs training camp in Spain and the entire build-up to the LC whereas the former arrived less than 48 hours before our opener. 

Defence is a team effort these days if the midfield had to focus on what was behind them it would have impacted on what happened up-front - 3 tight games with only one goal and that from the.penalty spot.

11 starters plus 7 subs is 18 players so I wouldn't agree we had a majority top flight squad - the 16 players we named against Albion Rovers (and remember we had to make an emergency substitution after 5 minutes) do not IMO  make a team which "should be beating" Albion Rovers. 

To go back to the DoF role GLS said the appointment of a DoF was to prevent the mistakes of Summer 2018 from re-occurring (his words) and on that count this summer has been a failure

Cooke kept the Duck out of the starting 11 at the very end of the season, a player signed in January for the relegation battle. Again are you saying he isn't good enough to lead the line against L2/ Lowland league teams? I don't particularly rate him very highly but he is still an SP striker right now & I have no question that he should be good enough to help see off Albion Rovers. 

So if we signed five players on the same day as Djorkaeff of a high quality would it still be Gus & GLS to blame? You now seem to be making a point that we should have had our business completed weeks before these games or the summer is a failure, why? 

Correct but the defenders completed their primary goal & that's a clean sheet. Even including them, EE was playing at a position he featured a lot in last season & McGinn had been part of a back three on occasion.  Are you saying them both playing in the positions they were in wouldn't get a game for any Championship, League 1 side or most of League 2? 

You might not think we had a majority of top flight players but did we have players that are only the same level as Albion feckin Rovers?? To think we didn't have a team good enough to beat Albion Rovers is to think we have some players playing up to three levels higher than they should be! As I have clearly articulated above, it defies logic. 

Are you saying no matter what happens now until 31st of August this summer transfer business has been a failure? So if we sign players good enough to have a better season than last it will still be a failure because a team of SP players couldn't beat Albion Rovers? Madness & you know it's madness because people are agreeing with me on it haha.

 

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30 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:


Depends on what you regard the mistakes of summer 18 to be emoji57.png
IF you regard the mistakes to be spunking the transfer budget on a bunch of duffers of which only one is still with us then this summer isn't a failure... not yet at least!

 

 

 

The mistakes of Summer 18 - not having a League ready team in time for the first game.

I expected 5/6 players in before the Summer Camp or at least the start of the LC campaign (which in it's current format is always gonna be a bit hit&miss for most teams), this should have left some money in the playing budget for a further 2/3 fine tuning  signings as the closure of the transfer window approached and bigger clubs looked to shift their surplus players.

Edited by Bud the Baker
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20 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Cooke kept the Duck out of the starting 11 at the very end of the season, a player signed in January for the relegation battle. Again are you saying he isn't good enough to lead the line against L2/ Lowland league teams? I don't particularly rate him very highly but he is still an SP striker right now & I have no question that he should be good enough to help see off Albion Rovers. 

So if we signed five players on the same day as Djorkaeff of a high quality would it still be Gus & GLS to blame? You now seem to be making a point that we should have had our business completed weeks before these games or the summer is a failure, why? 

Correct but the defenders completed their primary goal & that's a clean sheet. Even including them, EE was playing at a position he featured a lot in last season & McGinn had been part of a back three on occasion.  Are you saying them both playing in the positions they were in wouldn't get a game for any Championship, League 1 side or most of League 2? 

You might not think we had a majority of top flight players but did we have players that are only the same level as Albion feckin Rovers?? To think we didn't have a team good enough to beat Albion Rovers is to think we have some players playing up to three levels higher than they should be! As I have clearly articulated above, it defies logic. 

Are you saying no matter what happens now until 31st of August this summer transfer business has been a failure? So if we sign players good enough to have a better season than last it will still be a failure because a team of SP players couldn't beat Albion Rovers? Madness & you know it's madness because people are agreeing with me on it haha.

 

Cooke still wasn't a regular starter last season.

We didn't sign 5 players of a high quality on the same day as we signed Djorkaeff.

No I'm saying the sides we put out against EK & Albion Rovers weren't top flight quality and saying we should have won anyway is pretty arrogant - it's maybe a slightly different nuance but I'd accept shouldn't have lost to these teams.

Yes - we may do some good business between now & August 31st but experience shows it takes 4/5 weeks for a team with a significant number of new players to gel.

I'll  stand by my opinions until I receive better arguments than those above.

Edited by Bud the Baker
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12 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Cooke still wasn't a regular starter last season.

We didn't sign 5 players of a high quality on the same day as we signed Djorkaeff.

No I;m saying the sides we put out against EK & Albion Rovers weren't top flight quality and saying we should have won anyway is pretty arrogant - it's maybe a slightly different nuance but I'd accept shouldn't lose to these teams.

I'm not prejudging what happens between now & August 31st but experience shows it takes 4/5 weeks for a team with a significant number of new players to gel.

I'll  stand by my opinions until I receive better arguments than those above.

It's not arrogant to suggest a full time SPL squad should be beating part-time teams from L2 and the Lowland league.

I don't think you are going to get much support for that point of view TBH.

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15 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Cooke still wasn't a regular starter last season.

We didn't sign 5 players of a high quality on the same day as we signed Djorkaeff.

No I'm saying the sides we put out against EK & Albion Rovers weren't top flight quality and saying we should have won anyway is pretty arrogant - it's maybe a slightly different nuance but I'd accept shouldn't have lost to these teams.

Yes - we may do some good business between now & August 31st but experience shows it takes 4/5 weeks for a team with a significant number of new players to gel.

I'll  stand by my opinions until I receive better arguments than those above.

And Cooke still isn't a league 2 or below player. 

But you're using the time we signed Djorkeff to discount. Even though he had been on the summer camp & played in at least three games for us before EK. 

They might not have been top flight quality but they weren't three divisions below that quality. The failings to beat these teams categorically sit with the players on that part & the coaches preparation. Glad we're getting somewhere with the 'shouldn't have lost' it's the only point I'm making. I do see the irony though that the same people having a go at GLS for months/ years are the ones using this to target him again. 

Would you rather we had poorer players gelled for 38 games or better players gelled for 34-36? This unfortunately could have been our options, signing players to improve a squad isn't as easy as people make out. 

I don't imagine you'll get a better argument than St Mirren are in the SP & those teams are at least three levels below them tbh, which is what this boils down to. If you think playing two players out of position (which worked in some SP games last season) & one player only training with the team for 3-4 weeks changes our dynamic from makeshift SP to Lowland league level, that's your opinion.  

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1 minute ago, bazil85 said:

And Cooke still isn't a league 2 or below player. 

But you're using the time we signed Djorkeff to discount. Even though he had been on the summer camp & played in at least three games for us before EK. 

They might not have been top flight quality but they weren't three divisions below that quality. The failings to beat these teams categorically sit with the players on that part & the coaches preparation. Glad we're getting somewhere with the 'shouldn't have lost' it's the only point I'm making. I do see the irony though that the same people having a go at GLS for months/ years are the ones using this to target him again. 

Would you rather we had poorer players gelled for 38 games or better players gelled for 34-36? This unfortunately could have been our options, signing players to improve a squad isn't as easy as people make out. 

I don't imagine you'll get a better argument than St Mirren are in the SP & those teams are at least three levels below them tbh, which is what this boils down to. If you think playing two players out of position (which worked in some SP games last season) & one player only training with the team for 3-4 weeks changes our dynamic from makeshift SP to Lowland league level, that's your opinion.  

The squad wasn't ready for the League Cup and that was principally due to the failure of the DoF role - I retain this opinion.

******************

Q. Can you guarantee the delay in signing players will lead to us getting better quality?

A. No, the delay however will have an impact on when the first team gels.

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27 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

The squad wasn't ready for the League Cup and that was principally due to the failure of the DoF role - I retain this opinion.

******************

Q. Can you guarantee the delay in signing players will lead to us getting better quality?

A. No, the delay however will have an impact on when the first team gels.

You’re allowed that opinion, I have shown some of the beliefs you must hold to retain it though including thinking the team was poorer than L2 quality. 

I never claimed I could guarantee it. 

Q. Is that justification in signing players earlier that JG thought weren’t good enough to improve our team? 

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34 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

You’re allowed that opinion, I have shown some of the beliefs you must hold to retain it though including thinking the team was poorer than L2 quality. 

I never claimed I could guarantee it. 

Q. Is that justification in signing players earlier that JG thought weren’t good enough to improve our team? 

Thanks but no you haven't, you've just expressed a different one.

I was replying to your hypothetical question in kind!

Time will tell but it confirms that the post of DoF is currently redundant!

Edited by Bud the Baker
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You’re allowed that opinion, I have shown some of the beliefs you must hold to retain it though including thinking the team was poorer than L2 quality. 
I never claimed I could guarantee it. 
Q. Is that justification in signing players earlier that JG thought weren’t good enough to improve our team? 
Geez yappy wee dug.

Gonnae just let the bone go?

Nothing new on how many pages?
[emoji50][emoji850][emoji26]
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Guest TPAFKATS



The mistakes of Summer 18 - not having a League ready team in time for the first game.
I expected 5/6 players in before the Summer Camp or at least the start of the LC campaign (which in it's current format is always gonna be a bit hit&miss for most teams), this should have left some money in the playing budget for a further 2/3 fine tuning  signings as the closure of the transfer window approached and bigger clubs looked to shift their surplus players.


We had a league ready team in time for the first game of last season. OK the team was shite, but it was assembled in plenty of time by the then manager including a 75k transfer fee.

I would've preferred players in earlier as well. I'm sure everyone in a position to affect this at the club will agree with us on that.
Given that the English window shuts earlier we will always be likely to pick players up in August.
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On 7/30/2019 at 2:32 PM, DLBud said:

10 fit, recognised, first team players for Saturday now (IF McGinn and GMac are ready to go).

I believe the original question that started this thread is a moot point.

Never heard of im; but if he's a striker we'll ave im.😄

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1 minute ago, TPAFKATS said:


We had a league ready team in time for the first game of last season. OK the team was shite, but it was assembled in plenty of time by the then manager including a 75k transfer fee.

I would've preferred players in earlier as well. I'm sure everyone in a position to affect this at the club will agree with us on that.
Given that the English window shuts earlier we will always be likely to pick players up in August.

 

Were we a league ready team? I didn't think so and said so at the time.

Acknowledging that Stubbs made mistakes doesn't make this window a success as you seem to half agree!

Also you seem to be agreeing with me - aiming to get core players in early and fine tuning towards the end of the window!

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