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Kemp

Why has the Director of Football failed?

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I wish Gordon Scott well I only ever met and talked to have once and that was at one of the SMISA meetings prior to the takeover.What I will say however whilst Stewart and I had many disagreements over the years they were always face to face.However without fear of contradiction he was the finest Chairman in my lifetime of supporting Saints.Where exactly we would be right now but for Messrs Gilmour Campbell and McAusland God only knows.COYS.

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9 minutes ago, LargsBud said:

This has got nothing to do with him backing managers. This was a completely separate issue which has been discussed to death on this forum.

The facts are GLS has significantly backed every manager he has appointed so far. 

Jack Ross with the January 2017 squad overhaul, Stubbs with last summer's whole new squad and OK with another whole new squad in January this year.

He will back Goodwin. It takes time to get the right standard of players in. 

 

Significantly backed? Or frittered away hard earned transfer fees to the point we now can't compete in the transfer market?

Either way, GLS has not put his hand in his pocket at any point. St Mirren may have backed their managers, GLS has sacked them!

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If that's the case why aren't you rebutting my points on not seeing repeat mistakes? My opinion is there are not really commonality, I'm allowed that opinion. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm asking you to clarify what you mean. As for changing parameters, I am not, this isn't a black and white debate, there are shades of grey, anyone trying to make it black and white can very easily be challenged on this forum. 
Kombibuddie above for example, has highlighted his reasons for thinking there are common mistakes down to GLS. He's entitled to those opinions but I'm also entitle to point out where it is hearsay or where it has mitigating circumstance (us starting last season with a new manager being down to Ross leaving & us being powerless to stop it for example)
Yep this is his fourth summer, it isn't over yet people are already judging him. The previous two have resulted in successful (relatively speaking) seasons & the one before that he learned that Alex Rae wasn't the right man for the job, sacked him, brought in a manager that he backed & that ultimately led to a team that got us promotion the following season.
Is that a fair summary or were your expectations higher? (for example anything above survival for a promoted team in their fist season)  
 
I can answer that one!
It's really not worth it.
You won't listen.
You won't reconsider.
You just go round in ever increasing circles till people lose the will to live far less engage you in dialogue.

There is NO DIalogue with you... MONOlogue and headshaking is what it invariably ends up as!

You're welcome.

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4 minutes ago, LargsBud said:

He will back Goodwin. It takes time to get the right standard of players in. 

not doubting the time it takes, I have no criticism of Jim Goodwin but I am not certain that we needed a new manager & that is where my questioning of "backing the manager" comes from.

Like Alex Rae, Jack Ross, Alan Stubbs & Oran Kearney, I hope Jim Goodwin is the man to develop a squad at St Mirren that is capable of realising Tony Fitzpatrick' dream of Top 6, Top 4, even Top 2 or Top 1 if St Tony of Fitz dares to dream.

Going to be a busy week getting a team ready for Easter Road.

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1 hour ago, Lord Pityme said:

And dont we know Mr Wardrobe's finances, and those of the club are separate..!

when Scott was challenged why he gave a blazer on the board to a man (Mr Wardrobe) who so opposed Smisa & BtB he said that he (Mr Wardrobe) may be looking to invest in the  club......!

we all assumed a significant sum for players, club development etc.... not to buy a steak pie!

Don't know any of this stuff but I detect that a number of people closer to the halls of power than me know more about Gordon Scott and Mr Wardrobe and Mr Gilmour than the rest of us plebs.

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53 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

If that's the case why aren't you rebutting my points on not seeing repeat mistakes? My opinion is there are not really commonality, I'm allowed that opinion. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm asking you to clarify what you mean. As for changing parameters, I am not, this isn't a black and white debate, there are shades of grey, anyone trying to make it black and white can very easily be challenged on this forum. 

Kombibuddie above for example, has highlighted his reasons for thinking there are common mistakes down to GLS. He's entitled to those opinions but I'm also entitle to point out where it is hearsay or where it has mitigating circumstance (us starting last season with a new manager being down to Ross leaving & us being powerless to stop it for example)

Yep this is his fourth summer, it isn't over yet people are already judging him. The previous two have resulted in successful (relatively speaking) seasons & the one before that he learned that Alex Rae wasn't the right man for the job, sacked him, brought in a manager that he backed & that ultimately led to a team that got us promotion the following season.

Is that a fair summary or were your expectations higher? (for example anything above survival for a promoted team in their fist season)  

 

To be fair Baz I'm coming round to not expecting too much when discussing with you, the reason being that you're only actually interested in being right and on your terms. You go on about "repeat mistakes" and then attaching them to being used as blame, I'm not blaming anyone.

You then use the term commonality but don't seem to want to accept GLS being at the helm for four summers as a "common denominator".

For the last time Baz is am not judging or blaming anyone including GLS but I think that it is okay (my opinion old chap) for people to question GLS if they see fit, bearing in mind that this is the third season out of four that we have been underprepared going into to the League Cup sections and with a week to go until the league season starts.

For the avoidance of doubt Baz I hope that both GLS and the club are successful this and every other season and only ever have expectations of myself, they are the only ones I can control.

 

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5 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

Ah. The pleasures of being on the Forum. Friendly welcomes, debate, open minds and encouragement. Wonderful. 

Yes!   ....................................................        and then Shull pops up ................................  and you realise HELL is not just figurative speech nor an allegory ................ it';s here.......... argh!!!!  

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12 hours ago, Big Yards said:

And just as well Dreyer got injured cos McAllister kept us up almost single handedly

You must have been watching different games to me. He played well in parts but was nowhere near keeping us up single handedly standard !

 

Hladkey and Popescu were definitely more influential and for his goals possibly Mullen too

Edited by Ayrshire Saints

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25 minutes ago, Kombibuddie said:

B

No he hasn't! otherwise Oran Kearney would still be manager & St Mirren FC would possibly/probably still be in the league cup and this summers recruitment would be in the advanced stages of having a full squad assembled.

First of all I mean regarding player recruitment.

Then why is the club employing a Director of Football?

Do we? If you're talking about Gus, he isn't DoF and was appointed to support player recruitment after the approach Stubbs took last season didn't work. He's had one full window in January & one success. There is nothing wrong with having more than one person involved in recruitment. 

OK wanted to stay, of that there is no doubt but something happened that brought about him leaving. A daily commute wasn't a deal breaker but it's become convenient to use as the reason OK left.

How do you know he wanted to say and how can you say there is no doubt? Again is this an assumption GLS 'entirely his choice' comment is wrong? 

GLS himself stated, OK "wanted to stay but under the right conditions" Which supports my statement, OK wanted to stay. I am stating, a daily commute was not the deal breaker. GLS himself stated, they "came to a compromise & moved on"

I am saying, the daily commute was not a deal breaker. Prove me wrong?

Wanting to stay under the right conditions doesn't mean it's possible, choice words but if it's entirely his choice to leave then he didn't really want to stay did he? Aware that's getting into a word game argument.  

I am not making a right or wrong claim, you are so prove your claim? I'm saying the specific circumstances are unknown but you seem to be suggesting you know it's been GLS doing... So on you go and prove that? 

 Something or someone got inside GLS's head & he started scheming to replace OK.  GLS himself said,

More negative anti-GLS assumptions.

No assumptions, perhaps you should read the article again where GLS said they "done due diligence on the new manager, arranged preseason in spite of him (OK) etc. OK was still in the job, it appears, the plan was to get him out. But why? They had "resolved" matters and "moved on".

You said 'scheming to replace' Where's your evidence? Future planning isn't the same as scheming. I'm sure the club future planned for the eventuality of relegation or that Hladky might leave, does it mean they're 'scheming' to go down or replace him? 

Don't you think the managerial merry go round of 9 managers in 6 seasons with 5 changes of manager in GLS' tenure as chairman isn't a contributing factor to our current situation?

Rae - right choice, he didn't hire him

Ross - Powerless to stop 

Stubbs - error in judgement & right choice to remove

OK - see above regarding your assumptions 

The similarities are, we are rebuilding this preseason once again with a new manager at the helm (again, again, again, again again) Now! we are where we are & we need to get sorted asap.

Last season it was completely outside our control needing a new manager, this season... yet again see your above assumptions. Both seasons prior to that we didn't start with a new manager so again I'm not seeing any similarities that have been down to GLS. Unless you think he could have done more to stop Ross taking a job that more than trebled his salary? 

Dress it how you like but we have a revolving door in the managers office and there appears to be little or no appetite to stop that door spinning. Hopefully JG will put the brakes on it. Time will tell, I certainly hope so.

So you don't disagree with any of my dissertations above? You are the one dressing it up that it's all black and white when clearly most cases have had mitigating circumstance. 

The similarities you fail to recognise is, every preseason, we are doing a rebuilding job at St Mirren.

Really? Last season wasn't a rebuild (any more than expected for promoted team), Stubbs just got it wrong, season before wasn't a rebuild we built on the January signings and got promoted, season before wasn't much of a rebuild either but again Rae got it wrong. This summer is the only major rebuild I'm seeing since we were relegated from SP. 

I've heard GLS is a difficult fella to work/deal with, I don't know the fella but the more and more you see and hear the same kind of things, you tend to start scratching your chin and wonder, is there any substance to this?

Yet you seem to be making a fair number of assumptions on him?

Hopefully the Club AGM in November/December will enlighten the shareholders on the managerial merry go round, the finances and provide some understating on other matters the shareholders find questionable.

I've already shed light on the 'managerial merry go round' do you think they'll give us more than we already know? 

I have no doubts, Jim Goodwin will do a magnificent job for us, but like every manager before him, he needs time to settle in, get to know the players and for the players to get to know him, learn his tactics, formations, style of play etc. The league cup came too soon for us in the situation we are in.

 

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25 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said:

I can answer that one!
It's really not worth it.
You won't listen.
You won't reconsider.
You just go round in ever increasing circles till people lose the will to live far less engage you in dialogue.

There is NO DIalogue with you... MONOlogue and headshaking is what it invariably ends up as!

You're welcome.

A very long winded way of agreeing he didn't answer my questions... 

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1 minute ago, Ayrshire Saints said:

You must have been watching different games to me. He played well in parts but was nowhere near keeping us up single handedly standard !

Flynn, Popescu, Hladky, Hammil, and at least 4 others plus McAllister and Dreyer all played big parts in keeping us up. It was a very decent team and a great team effort  post January window.

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20 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

To be fair Baz I'm coming round to not expecting too much when discussing with you, the reason being that you're only actually interested in being right and on your terms. You go on about "repeat mistakes" and then attaching them to being used as blame, I'm not blaming anyone.

You then use the term commonality but don't seem to want to accept GLS being at the helm for four summers as a "common denominator".

For the last time Baz is am not judging or blaming anyone including GLS but I think that it is okay (my opinion old chap) for people to question GLS if they see fit, bearing in mind that this is the third season out of four that we have been underprepared going into to the League Cup sections and with a week to go until the league season starts.

For the avoidance of doubt Baz I hope that both GLS and the club are successful this and every other season and only ever have expectations of myself, they are the only ones I can control.

 

Often discussions on here aren't right or wrong points. I am simply wanting to clarify your claims of commonality. If it is just that GLS has been here for four summers fine. So has the lady at the ticket office. We won't attach blame to either of them for our professional players failing to beat L2 & lowland league opposition because that would be silly... 

If you want to question him fine. Personally I don't greatly see what the benefit in that would be. If you were to question him and he said something like

Two seasons ago - player squad was near complete & enough to get us promoted what more should I have done? . 

Last season- entrusted a new manager & backed him in signing players, failures were his choices in recruitment, what more should I have done?  

This season - our professional players couldn't beat teams in L2/ Lowland league. We don't want to repeat last seasons mistakes in signing rubbish players & the process is proving timely, what more should I have done?

What would your responses have been? 

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2 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Often discussions on here aren't right or wrong points. I am simply wanting to clarify your claims of commonality. If it is just that GLS has been here for four summers fine.

If it was fine you would have stopped there but you couldn't you had to turn it in to I'm right you're wrong

So has the lady at the ticket office. We won't attach blame to either of them for our professional players failing to beat L2 & lowland league opposition because that would be silly... Who is trying to attach blame, I'm not (repeating again I know and I apologise to anyone wading through this shite) attaching blame to anyone.

If you want to question him fine. I'm not, I'm defending others right to do so

 

Personally I don't greatly see what the benefit in that would be. If you were to question him and he said something like

Two seasons ago - player squad was near complete & enough to get us promoted what more should I have done? . 

Last season- entrusted a new manager & backed him in signing players, failures were his choices in recruitment, what more should I have done?  

This season - our professional players couldn't beat teams in L2/ Lowland league. We don't want to repeat last seasons mistakes in signing rubbish players & the process is proving timely, what more should I have done?

What would your responses have been? "Gordon, why are you answering questions I haven't asked, that's a bit bizarre...….now that you bring it up though what have you learned over that time that will stop us getting in to this situation over the rest of your tenure?"

Now Baz do us both a favour and drop it, it's tedious and not fair for others to have to trawl through this banal rubbish...….I'm out

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24 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Often discussions on here aren't right or wrong points. I am simply wanting to clarify your claims of commonality. If it is just that GLS has been here for four summers fine. So has the lady at the ticket office. We won't attach blame to either of them for our professional players failing to beat L2 & lowland league opposition because that would be silly... 

If you want to question him fine. Personally I don't greatly see what the benefit in that would be. If you were to question him and he said something like

Two seasons ago - player squad was near complete & enough to get us promoted what more should I have done? . 

Last season- entrusted a new manager & backed him in signing players, failures were his choices in recruitment, what more should I have done?  

This season - our professional players couldn't beat teams in L2/ Lowland league. We don't want to repeat last seasons mistakes in signing rubbish players & the process is proving timely, what more should I have done?

What would your responses have been? 

 

14 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

Now Baz do us both a favour and drop it, it's tedious and not fair for others to have to trawl through this banal rubbish...….I'm out

Baz, you've lost yet another poster.

What have you learned in the last 6 months about the way you post, to prevent this happening so often?

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Fluff & bluster

 

There's a recurring theme of forumsters all coming to similar conclusions about your postings & no longer wanting to engage with your endless war on "winning every argument"

 

It's not a war

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, magnus said:

No way we have frittered away the best part of £2m. 

Thing is ... nobody really know for sure. 

If you come from the starting point that we're generally run as a break-even business you then have to wonder how we've funded all of the considerable turbulence over recent years. 

1 ) Binning Rae and his team of duds, compensation for Jack Ross, higher calibre of player such as Stephen McGinn. 

£300k McAllister money re-invested to ensure Championship survival? 

 

2) Following season,  new deals for the management team,  expanding the playing squad with greater quality like Flynn but then to the point where it was arguably bloated (with guys like Hill and Donati). 

£300k Morgan money re-invested to ensure we got over the line? 

 

3) Then enter the era of Stubbs and the J.McGinn money.  Stubbs was backed, he got a 3rd coach (Rice) and spent £75k on one player, and signed a host of players on 2/3 year deals. Binning the lot of them has surely cost a lot of money. Then you've got compensation for Kearney and a real elevation of the calibre of the player that we were signing in Ferdinand, Jackson and Hamill. Another big January window. 

£1m MgGinn money - how much of that gone?? 

 

 

The other thing I wonder about is win bonuses. To what extent were the teams incentivised with bonuses to ensure Championship survival / Promotion / Premiership survival?  

 

I really do hope that we're sitting on a healthy kitty and manage to get the right players.  

All this talk of being skint may be us playing a blinder for negotiating players but who knows.  

 

 

Edited by Maboza

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1 hour ago, Kemp said:

Significantly backed? Or frittered away hard earned transfer fees to the point we now can't compete in the transfer market

I agree with this but it's still backing them. I think the original point was that he was accused of not backing the managers.

Every manager he has appointed had been given the opportunity to bring in a significant number of players and shape their own team. 

I believe he has learned from last summer's mistakes and that's why there is more caution this year and a determination to bring in a higher standard of player rather than just any tom dick or harry.

 

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