The Family Stand - Open Letter to the Board

[bazil85]

59 minutes ago, sally02 said:

Firstly Bazil, I was just starting this as a new Thread based on the contents of the letter, to get a fresh response, to enable me to consider whether it would be worthwhile mailing it to the Board!

Bazil, you know perfectly well that was down to the Jack Ross/Winning the Championship/ Were in the Premier league euphoria!

And a lot of the increase is due to the good work of Josh and the boys in W7, and not any specific club initiatives.

Ok I acknowledge that just under 5000 in that stand for the 3 games last season increased crowds/revenue over the season, but if you divide it by 19 games its 263 per game, and way more than 263 don't attend those old firm games- fact!

If you are close to the nerve centre, would it be considered if we asked the board for a simple match day vote on the supporters feelings? Start of the second half against Aberdeen, simple question. Stand up if you oppose the giving of the family stand to the old firm, sit down if you don't! That should let us know. I'll add it to the letter and send it to the board direct if you think I will get a response?

I have no doubt the JR season impacted our crowds positively, my point is more there isn't really evidence the two stand deal is impacting negatively or driving fans away long-term. If that's going to be part of the argument, I think it needs to be clear what it's based on.

I agree though, I think a lot of the positive stuff around the club like W1, entertainment for young fans, 1877 club for older fans is having more of a positive impact than this is having a negative one so I would just be a bit conscious of that point. (this is just in support of sending this email if that's what you want to do, nothing more) 

Dividing the benefit over 19 games then saying we lost 263 fans over three games are not like for like figures. You'd have to take that 263 multiply it by three then divide by 19 if I have understood what you're trying to do here, both need to be compared for their impact over 19 games. I would be skeptical about the validity of the numbers anyway based on the point I'm about to make but an increase on average of 263 fans compared to a loss of 41 is still good from a financial perspective. It also doesn't consider that we historically seen a dip in home fans for these games anyway, something most fans have accepted. So I wouldn't say we can say with confidence fans not attending is purely down to the two stand arrangement. 

No I wouldn't support that approach at all, peer pressure could be a big impact on fans standing or sitting, fans being singled out for their view (like some have been on here) fans not paying attention, fans that couldn't care less, actual counting of numbers. Secret, voluntary electronic vote for me. 

[Lord Pityme]

2 hours ago, sally02 said:

The St. Mirren Family Stand – A Wrong Decision

Dear Board Members

 

I am writing this letter to you to express my unease with the on-going situation regarding the use of the Family Stand at St. Mirren Park.

 

I am personally opposed to the stance taken by the board to allow the use of the family stand for accommodating both the Rangers and Celtic supports at our home games against us, based on the claims of increased revenue to the club and therefore additional funds to support the playing staff budget.

I would like to highlight the club’s website ticketing information page detail for the South (Family) Stand:-

“Please note that the South Stand is a Family Stand and therefore we expect no swearing within this stand. In the past we have had complaints from family groups and potentially new supporters about the language their children were subjected to. We will therefore be working closely with the police and stewards to discourage this type of behaviour in order that the good work we are doing with local schools encouraging them to support the Club is not wasted. Please assist the Police and stewards by pointing out anyone who participates in unacceptable language.”

It beggars belief that the above is the policy of the club for the season, yet on 3 (or 4 occasions if we ever achieved Top 6 at the split in April), that is put aside to let 1654 additional opposing supporters, swear, sing sectarian songs, let off flares, throw objects onto the pitch, and in general flout the rules of the stadium, the laws of the land, and be above the attention of the Police in enforcing the rules and laws in place, as it might create a flash point to intervene and deal with the situation. You are in essence condoning that behaviour, rather than being radical and forward thinking.

In addition, although the Police and Stewarding arrangements are deemed to be adequate for the crowd management on the day, there has been no real regard shown to the fact that some fans will not attend, and the majority who do attend, do so with a feeling of unease and discomfort at the situation, which is most definitely not felt when all the other clubs play in Paisley. 

The upcoming home games against Aberdeen and The Rangers highlight a huge difference in the message being sent out to the St. Mirren support. 

On the one hand, there are the family events to take place prior to the Aberdeen game to try and encourage Families, Schools and Youth Groups to attend the Stadium and see the experience as something more than just a game of football over 90 minutes.

Then, just one week later, you ask those same Fans, Families, and potentially new Supporters to vacate the Family Stand, and if they wish to attend the match against The Rangers, more than likely have to take seats at either end of the Main Stand where fewest season tickets are taken up, and be in close proximity to all the things you claim you will not tolerate from your own support in the Family Stand. That is senseless and also dis-respectful of those fans.  

On behalf of some, if not the majority of Saints, I would request that you re-consider your current stance on this issue. Somewhere along the line, factors other than financial benefit have to be considered. Is tainting the match-day experience, sending out conflicting signals by condoning one rule for us and disregard of the rules by them, really the long-term solution to building the fan-base, and therefore the future strength and wealth of the club?

 

Have any options been considered? What about offering far flung Buddies or even existing Season Ticket holders the chance to buy a 3 match season ticket for these games, and let them nominate schools, youth groups or family members to attend on their behalf. Buddies crowd-funding around the World to buy up the tickets and a Panda Bear, to sit in their seat?  Just anything rather than the current situation – PLEASE!

 

The on-going situations at Kilmarnock and Aberdeen, and indeed between the 2 Glasgow clubs curtailing each others opposing support numbers, is a fairly poignant indicator of the way forward in my opinion.

Finally, I would request that the board release the working figures used for the plan to go ahead and allocate the Family Stand to the Old Firm, including details of the increased policing and stewarding costs.

I would also like to ask for clarification on the position if say, Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen become season long Title Challengers and started to regularly take 3000 or 4000 away supports to games. Would you then apply the same reasoning and implementation in that scenario?

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

I hope you've sent this to the board, and to smisa. Both seem happy to try and keep this on the down-low!

with Hladky almost seriously injured by an explosive last season you wonder if there is anything this out of touch board wouldnt tolerate for the bigots bucks?

[bazil85]

1 hour ago, sally02 said:

SMISA Members approx. 1200 - Average vote 700 or 800

Season ticket holders - better indication probably

all the support at the Aberdeen Game - STAND UP if you don't won't the Family Stand given away - done and dusted there and then in front of all the support!

 

I would be hugely confident that the answer would be NO OLD FIRM!

So would I if it was done in such a public way, not so much if it was a private vote. 

[Wendy Saintss]

Fans need to take things into their own hands and boycott all matches against the Old Firm.

All supporters of all other clubs should do the same

This way we can force the clubs to set up a new league without the Old Firm

If fans keep attending these games then they are part of the problem

[bazil85]

56 minutes ago, Kombibuddie said:

You feeling OK

anyways

If not to change the decision, what would the purpose of the vote you, personally would like to see? How many supporters support the action & how many don't support the action?.

What happens if a sizeable majority voted No, don't give them the family stand? Ignore?

"SMFC last season set an arrangement in place that has continued into this season where Rangers & Celtic fans attending our games are allocated the family stand. This arrangement was put in place due to the following factors

• Lower home attendance figures historically at these matches
• The ability to accommodate all attending home fans in other stands
• A significant financial benefit to the club which allowed for a 10% increase in our player budget. 

Based on some fan feedback we have commissioned a private vote to determine the fan reaction to this. Vote yes if you're in favour of retaining the current arrangement or no if you would like to see the club abandon it."

I think we'd see a decent majority yes if it was SMISA or season ticket holders. If they did vote considerably no though, strong evidence the arrangement should be changed when we become fan owned. 

[shull]

12 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

Fans need to take things into their own hands and boycott all matches against the Old Firm.

All supporters of all other clubs should do the same

This way we can force the clubs to set up a new league without the Old Firm

If fans keep attending these games then they are part of the problem

My thoughts exactly. Both scum Clubs have got to be booted tae feck out. 

It's the only way ahead for Scottish Football. 

St Mirren and all other Clubs should hang their heads in shame for... 

SEVCO

All Clubs , Authorities and Media complicit in keeping this HELL going. 

They all had the chance to cleanse our beautiful game when sectarian cnuts died. 

They fecking blew it. 

Greedy arseholes. 

[Kombibuddie]

1 minute ago, bazil85 said:

I think we'd see a decent majority yes if it was SMISA or season ticket holders. If they did vote considerably no though, strong evidence the arrangement should be changed when we become fan owned. 

If a vote against giving up the family stand, you see it purely as an indicator ("evidence the arrangement should be changed") for when SMISA becomes the majority owner?

SMISA BoD have stated, they have no intention of buying the club until the maximum timescale of 10 years for BTB has completed. That'd be another 7 seasons despite an overwhelming message (in the event) of a majority 'No' from the support (SMISA members + Season Ticket Holders).

Hmmm...…..

Such action could be damaging if the majority feel their opinions are not being valued by the club (or SMISA).

[proudtobeabuddy]

2 hours ago, sally02 said:

The St. Mirren Family Stand – A Wrong Decision

Dear Board Members

 

I am writing this letter to you to express my unease with the on-going situation regarding the use of the Family Stand at St. Mirren Park.

 

I am personally opposed to the stance taken by the board to allow the use of the family stand for accommodating both the Rangers and Celtic supports at our home games against us, based on the claims of increased revenue to the club and therefore additional funds to support the playing staff budget.

I would like to highlight the club’s website ticketing information page detail for the South (Family) Stand:-

“Please note that the South Stand is a Family Stand and therefore we expect no swearing within this stand. In the past we have had complaints from family groups and potentially new supporters about the language their children were subjected to. We will therefore be working closely with the police and stewards to discourage this type of behaviour in order that the good work we are doing with local schools encouraging them to support the Club is not wasted. Please assist the Police and stewards by pointing out anyone who participates in unacceptable language.”

It beggars belief that the above is the policy of the club for the season, yet on 3 (or 4 occasions if we ever achieved Top 6 at the split in April), that is put aside to let 1654 additional opposing supporters, swear, sing sectarian songs, let off flares, throw objects onto the pitch, and in general flout the rules of the stadium, the laws of the land, and be above the attention of the Police in enforcing the rules and laws in place, as it might create a flash point to intervene and deal with the situation. You are in essence condoning that behaviour, rather than being radical and forward thinking.

In addition, although the Police and Stewarding arrangements are deemed to be adequate for the crowd management on the day, there has been no real regard shown to the fact that some fans will not attend, and the majority who do attend, do so with a feeling of unease and discomfort at the situation, which is most definitely not felt when all the other clubs play in Paisley. 

The upcoming home games against Aberdeen and The Rangers highlight a huge difference in the message being sent out to the St. Mirren support. 

On the one hand, there are the family events to take place prior to the Aberdeen game to try and encourage Families, Schools and Youth Groups to attend the Stadium and see the experience as something more than just a game of football over 90 minutes.

Then, just one week later, you ask those same Fans, Families, and potentially new Supporters to vacate the Family Stand, and if they wish to attend the match against The Rangers, more than likely have to take seats at either end of the Main Stand where fewest season tickets are taken up, and be in close proximity to all the things you claim you will not tolerate from your own support in the Family Stand. That is senseless and also dis-respectful of those fans.  

On behalf of some, if not the majority of Saints, I would request that you re-consider your current stance on this issue. Somewhere along the line, factors other than financial benefit have to be considered. Is tainting the match-day experience, sending out conflicting signals by condoning one rule for us and disregard of the rules by them, really the long-term solution to building the fan-base, and therefore the future strength and wealth of the club?

 

Have any options been considered? What about offering far flung Buddies or even existing Season Ticket holders the chance to buy a 3 match season ticket for these games, and let them nominate schools, youth groups or family members to attend on their behalf. Buddies crowd-funding around the World to buy up the tickets and a Panda Bear, to sit in their seat?  Just anything rather than the current situation – PLEASE!

 

The on-going situations at Kilmarnock and Aberdeen, and indeed between the 2 Glasgow clubs curtailing each others opposing support numbers, is a fairly poignant indicator of the way forward in my opinion.

Finally, I would request that the board release the working figures used for the plan to go ahead and allocate the Family Stand to the Old Firm, including details of the increased policing and stewarding costs.

I would also like to ask for clarification on the position if say, Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen become season long Title Challengers and started to regularly take 3000 or 4000 away supports to games. Would you then apply the same reasoning and implementation in that scenario?

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

Well said Sally! This ain't going away i've said it many times. 

[bazil85]

12 minutes ago, Kombibuddie said:

If a vote against giving up the family stand, you see it purely as an indicator ("evidence the arrangement should be changed") for when SMISA becomes the majority owner?

SMISA BoD have stated, they have no intention of buying the club until the maximum timescale of 10 years for BTB has completed. That'd be another 7 seasons despite an overwhelming message (in the event) of a majority 'No' from the support (SMISA members + Season Ticket Holders).

Hmmm...…..

Such action could be damaging if the majority feel their opinions are not being valued by the club (or SMISA).

I’m sure given the choice some fans would likely do a lot different from the current board. Same goes for practically any board & any football fanbase in the world. They’ve made a call that some might find unpopular for what they’ll see as the good of our club season on season. 

Personally I’d like to see the vote because I think it has the potential to show this subject isn’t one the majority of fans want changed/ care about. Same as we’ve seen time & time again with club benefits in SMISA votes for example. 

Two additional points I hope fans would take into consideration though in the event of a no. 

1. It’s not within SMISA control (yet) so don’t shoot the messenger 

2. Seven years isn’t all that long a time in our football clubs history. 

[Kombibuddie]

1 minute ago, bazil85 said:

I’m sure given the choice some fans would likely do a lot different from the current board. Same goes for practically any board & any football fanbase in the world. They’ve made a call that some might find unpopular for what they’ll see as the good of our club season on season. 

Personally I’d like to see the vote because I think it has the potential to show this subject isn’t one the majority of fans want changed/ care about. Same as we’ve seen time & time again with club benefits in SMISA votes for example. 

Two additional points I hope fans would take into consideration though in the event of a no. 

1. It’s not within SMISA control (yet) so don’t shoot the messenger 

2. Seven years isn’t all that long a time in our football clubs history. 

 Only thing I would disagree with there is the 7 years. 7 years is long enough in all of our lives.

Luckily, SMISA will have raised the funds within 7 years and will be in a position to buy the majority shareholding in 2023 which is "within 10 years" which is the agreement.

[DumboBud]

3 hours ago, bazil85 said:

 

Is there really any need? Subject has been done to death, board have clarified on several occasions it won't change until we have enough St Mirren fans to fill these empty seats, we'll own the club in a few years can review then if we wish. 

 

Now Baz I wouldn’t want to accuse you of not telling the truth but I don’t think the above is quite correct. 

The Board haven’t said that we would need to fill the empty seats to get the decision changed...... in fact they haven’t given any indication of what they would require to make them change the decision. 

Only nebulous promises to review at some point in the future. 

[St.Ricky]

1 hour ago, East Lothian Saint said:

I'm fairly sceptical but I would guess there would be few "entirely St Mirren supporting youth groups." I would hazard a guess that most of the youth groups would be mainly composed of Rangers and Celtic fans. Not sure how gifting them tickets helps anyone.

When St Mirren do well we attract fans and can fill stands. When we don't we have a mediocre crowd. You only have to look at the family stand during less attractive cup games. If People have to pay they chose to go to the other stands.  The family stand is empty when there are no freebies. 

To get a decent team on the park we need cash but that's the whole argument.

 

Pragmatic response ELS. 

I favour us doing well enough in the league to attract 5500 regular home fans. 

That would work. 

But.. I do like youth initiatives. 

Would also welcome initiatives for the elderly (I already enjoy my ticket discount) 

 

[saint in exile]

I don't agree with the BoD on this, but I can understand the financial rationale for doing it.  It's a pity that it seems necessary.  And whether its bile spilling out of one stand or two, I won't attend these games anyway - haven't done for years because of their behaviour.

[shull]

12 minutes ago, DumboBud said:

Now Baz I wouldn’t want to accuse you of not telling the truth but I don’t think the above is quite correct. 

The Board haven’t said that we would need to fill the empty seats to get the decision changed...... in fact they haven’t given any indication of what they would require to make them change the decision. 

Only nebulous promises to review at some point in the future. 

Given the chance, our bigot condoning Board would have the Scum in 3 Stands with Saints fans crammed into the Family Stand. 

[linwood buddie]

3 hours ago, bazil85 said:

Is there really any need? Subject has been done to death, board have clarified on several occasions it won't change until we have enough St Mirren fans to fill these empty seats, we'll own the club in a few years can review then if we wish. 

Side note, have Aberdeen, Hibs or Hearts ever sold out their one stand allocation? 

What if we have the same situation as what happened at Rugby Park ,their fans jump the barriers and are then in very close proximity to our fans?

[faraway saint]

2 minutes ago, linwood buddie said:

What if we have the same situation as what happened at Rugby Park ,their fans jump the barriers and are then in very close proximity to our fans?

You'll no have long to wait to find out, now they've a taste for it, just a matter of time. 

[stlucifer]

50 minutes ago, shull said:

My thoughts exactly. Both scum Clubs have got to be booted tae feck out. 

It's the only way ahead for Scottish Football. 

St Mirren and all other Clubs should hang their heads in shame for... 

SEVCO

All Clubs , Authorities and Media complicit in keeping this HELL going. 

They all had the chance to cleanse our beautiful game when sectarian cnuts died. 

They fecking blew it. 

Greedy arseholes. 

I find it unsurprising this is your thoughts exactly.

In saying that. I see the merits in a bigot free league. I actually think the problem lies with the custodians of our game. They refuse to see the detrimental effect this hatred has on our game and can't see past the short term money grabbing.

I would love to see it change but it will take one almighty shove. One even greater than the one which prevented a brand new club being shoehorned into the top division. 

[DumboBud]

Just now, shull said:

Given the chance, our bigot condoning Board would have the Scum in 3 Stands with Saints fans crammed into the Family Stand. 

I think that might be a bit extreme, but then I’m not totally against everything the board do.

However it is the logical conclusion of the argument that those that put revenue maximisation as their top priority and there are many posters (or more accurately,  some posters with many posts) on here who put that forward as the defence for the boards decision. 

[portmahomack saint]

1 hour ago, bazil85 said:

"SMFC last season set an arrangement in place that has continued into this season where Rangers & Celtic fans attending our games are allocated the family stand. This arrangement was put in place due to the following factors

• Lower home attendance figures historically at these matches
• The ability to accommodate all attending home fans in other stands
• A significant financial benefit to the club which allowed for a 10% increase in our player budget. 

Based on some fan feedback we have commissioned a private vote to determine the fan reaction to this. Vote yes if you're in favour of retaining the current arrangement or no if you would like to see the club abandon it."

I think we'd see a decent majority yes if it was SMISA or season ticket holders. If they did vote considerably no though, strong evidence the arrangement should be changed when we become fan owned. 

Were fan owned now... get them to F%%k  

[E=Mc2]

The bit about the policy regarding swearing in the family is irrelevant as when Rongers and Celtic visit the family stand is not used as a family stand.

  

[Ayrshire Saints]

Not seeing the relevance to the two stands debate. That scenario exists at every game even with the away support in their one traditional stand. If it happens then hopefully our fans would have the sense not to retaliate as that would make us no better than them.

What if we have the same situation as what happened at Rugby Park ,their fans jump the barriers and are then in very close proximity to our fans?

 

[sally02]

Interesting stat from last Season

29/09/2018 Home to Hibs               Crowd 6082 - Assume Away Stand Full 1654 Complement                  - Home Support  =  4428

03/11/2018 Home to Rangers         Crowd 6033 - Assume Away 2 Stands 90% Full 2960 Complement    - Home Support  =  3073

There may be other influencing factors, but it kind of says it all!

[bazil85]

55 minutes ago, DumboBud said:

Now Baz I wouldn’t want to accuse you of not telling the truth but I don’t think the above is quite correct. 

The Board haven’t said that we would need to fill the empty seats to get the decision changed...... in fact they haven’t given any indication of what they would require to make them change the decision. 

Only nebulous promises to review at some point in the future. 

They have, reading GLS statement on the decision to continue it this season I think it’s clear enough. 

[bazil85]

16 minutes ago, sally02 said:

Interesting stat from last Season

29/09/2018 Home to Hibs               Crowd 6082 - Assume Away Stand Full 1654 Complement                  - Home Support  =  4428

03/11/2018 Home to Rangers         Crowd 6033 - Assume Away 2 Stands 90% Full 2960 Complement    - Home Support  =  3073

There may be other influencing factors, but it kind of says it all!

I’ve shared a lot of these stats already on the other thread if you want to look back. Will always be mitigating circumstance but there are games where the home crowds are no different. 

From memory we actually took more home fans to a Celtic game second half of the season than to a Killie game. (Both midweek games). People were actually trying to defend it through DLS among other things. 

for me if you’re reliant on something like that, it shows there’s not a significant reduction in fans. 

[bazil85]

58 minutes ago, linwood buddie said:

What if we have the same situation as what happened at Rugby Park ,their fans jump the barriers and are then in very close proximity to our fans?

Then their fans & the team should be heavily punished. That could happen with two stands, one stand, half a stand the whole stadium. 

People also forget the additional risk of their fans buying home tickets. I remember several occasions of fans o both Celtic & Rangers being chucked out home ends. Security risks are all part of football unfortunately