bazil85 Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, Kombibuddie said: It is not your positive outlook that's the problem anyways, on this occasion, I agree with you about spreadsheets not cutting it If the costs are reasonable and it's worth the outlay, then it's the right thing to do but does it need bought now? We are 4 years minimum away but potentially 7 years away from the buyout. If the answer is yes, then buy it. I am trying to have a nice balanced argument for a change. yeah I guess that is the question, if what they’re saying about the admin hours is true I can’t grudge them spending this money. I’ve worked on projects that have used spreadsheets as workarounds & wanted to throw laptops out window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldorf34 Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, bazil85 said: The club will have several IT systems & I’m sure that’ll be a conversation at the time. Us outgrowing excel spreadsheets right now doesn’t mean we need to keep paying for this system in a few years if it’s not needed. Personally I’m surprised they’ve copied on excel for so long, it’s not fit for purpose for keeping fluid personal days & pulling MI. Any tech minded person will confirm this. "Us"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, waldorf34 said: "Us"? Yes we are all SMFC fans, we are all one & in this together. Referencing SMISA who I’m part of and the club who I (and imagine all) also feel part of is okay, it’s allowed. Don’t read into it too much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kombibuddie Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 35 minutes ago, bazil85 said: I am trying to have a nice balanced argument for a change. Happy Days. Welcome to the forum 35 minutes ago, bazil85 said: yeah I guess that is the question, if what they’re saying about the admin hours is true I can’t grudge them spending this money. I’ve worked on projects that have used spreadsheets as workarounds & wanted to throw laptops out window. I've probably got less knowledge than Cockles on this kind of stuff and even less interest in it and will bow to the knowledge of those that do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, Kombibuddie said: Happy Days. Welcome to the forum I've probably got less knowledge than Cockles on this kind of stuff and even less interest in it and will bow to the knowledge of those that do. Very sensible approach, as shown above, it won’t stop the usual suspects from the auto-neg starting point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmac Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Yflab said: There was nothing in the email about the membership having to approve this expenditure. And the hare is off and running. Suspect that will be an internal threshold but in terms of good governance, not a bad idea to get approval from members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestlegend Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 SMISA can’t win. “Unprofessional, not properly run, amateurish”*installs more professional system“Wasting money” Some folk will moan about anything [emoji849] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Yflab said: There was nothing in the email about the membership having to approve this expenditure. Well under smisa's own rules the membership do have to approve that level of expenditure on running costs. Like i said they have a £500 level the committee can authorise up to. even the three monthly spend is authorised everytime. The big one they f**ked up on was lending the club £15k for the USH which they rushed the money to the club without a vote, and the club sat in it for months before using it. They are pretty free and easy with others cash! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 Really don't see the need for this level of expenditure unless there are bigger plans in the pipeline. The monthly cost really seems OTT for our needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 31 minutes ago, Kemp said: Really don't see the need for this level of expenditure unless there are bigger plans in the pipeline. The monthly cost really seems OTT for our needs. I suppose if what they’re saying is true regarding the saved admin hours & need to hire someone PT it makes good business sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 1 minute ago, bazil85 said: I suppose if what they’re saying is true regarding the saved admin hours & need to hire someone PT it makes good business sense. There is much cheaper software out there to manage a database of 1200 people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, cockles1987 said: Had a quick look and couldn't see the rule regarding the £500 you mentioned. Are you able to provide the evidence for this. Just out of curiosity, weren't you party to said loan facility? Its in smisa's self governing rules father than the constitution. You can email smisa and ask what level of expenditure needs membership approval? And no i wasnt party to said loan facility, although i was on the committee at the time, they just nodded it through between a couple of them. Edited August 21, 2019 by Lord Pityme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 10 hours ago, Wilbur said: SMiSA = Frankenstein's monster. Well I stopped being a member 20 months ago, but it hasn't stopped them to continue sending me all the e-mails. I still get the chance to vote on the 3 months spend and I also got the 1 this thread is about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted August 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 I’ve emailed them asking the question. This is a significant purchase and the ongoing monthly charges are substantial. The equivalent of 25 lost memberships! Forever.The charity I work for has admin done by volunteers so that all donations from supporters go to providing services.Keeping unnecessary recurring expenditure to a minimum it crucial. Once commited it is very hard to go back, even if hard times should come calling.As I said initially, the capital outlay I am fine with... But recurring expenditure equivalent to TWENTY FIVE memberships does seem excessive even having read through the perceived "benefits". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Kemp said: There is much cheaper software out there to manage a database of 1200 people. That isn’t all they’ll be using it for though, says as much in the communication. I shared some prices of competitor software on page one & it’s far from the most expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 12 hours ago, chalky1 said: Should this not be explored before purchasing the system, otherwise potential further costs might be placed by the operator Yes and this is always the problem when you go for a bespoke solution. You are pretty much permanently tied to that supplier and they can then ramp up the monthly fees as much as they like and you have no recourse. It's one of the benefits of using open source software. I can't believe there isn't an open source piece of kit which can do the basics of what SMISA want. A database, a bit of mass emailing, an attached private forum with voting facilities and where you can add payment facilities. Seems relatively little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 52 minutes ago, Yflab said: I’ve emailed them asking the question. This is a significant purchase and the ongoing monthly charges are substantial. Is it from the monthly subscriptions though? That’s nowhere in the update. SMISA operates as a committee outside BTB as well as far as I know & we have nothing but LPM’s word (lol) that this is above a cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, bazil85 said: That isn’t all they’ll be using it for though, says as much in the communication. I shared some prices of competitor software on page one & it’s far from the most expensive. Why buy an off the shelf package? Did anyone consider using open source software and hiring a freelancer in for 30 hours to set up the required functionality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Why buy an off the shelf package? Did anyone consider using open source software and hiring a freelancer in for 30 hours to set up the required functionality? I covered some of the benefits in buying off the shelf packages in page one. What people need to consider is there will be far bigger companies & organisations with larger numbers of people using this software. Why don’t they just do it the way you suggest? The reality is these companies exist because there is big marketplace for them. Issue/ event management, outage accountability & updates in line with advancements in cyber security are a few of the main reasons why companies choose to go down this path instead of custom made. ‘Why buy off the shelf’ is a question that would have been considered & answered we have to assume. Edit: it’s also somewhat of a myth that this kind of software can be designed quickly with relative ease. We use similar in my work (also used this one on reviews) and it took 1,000s of hours & millions of dollars to develop & make secure & compliant. Maintaining it also costs the company a pretty penny. Edited August 21, 2019 by bazil85 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalky1 Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 35 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Yes and this is always the problem when you go for a bespoke solution. You are pretty much permanently tied to that supplier and they can then ramp up the monthly fees as much as they like and you have no recourse. It's one of the benefits of using open source software. I can't believe there isn't an open source piece of kit which can do the basics of what SMISA want. A database, a bit of mass emailing, an attached private forum with voting facilities and where you can add payment facilities. Seems relatively little. Totally agree and that was why I mentioned it, worked in places where new system comes onboard with the promise that it can do this and do that. System gets launched only to discover that the package you paid for only allows you to do certain things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 How does Bazil find the time to become an expert in so many subjects? I use a pretty decent CRM tool, it includes an effective mass email system and can integrate with a reliable polling app. It would cost 25 quid per month for what SMISA needs. This looks very nice with all the bells and whistles, but it hardly seems necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, Kemp said: How does Bazil find the time to become an expert in so many subjects? I use a pretty decent CRM tool, it includes an effective mass email system and can integrate with a reliable polling app. It would cost 25 quid per month for what SMISA needs. This looks very nice with all the bells and whistles, but it hardly seems necessary. His reply will be along the lines of........................... "Where did I say I was an expert" "Prove it" Etc etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, bazil85 said: I covered some of the benefits in buying off the shelf packages in page one. What people need to consider is there will be far bigger companies & organisations with larger numbers of people using this software. Why don’t they just do it the way you suggest? The reality is these companies exist because there is big marketplace for them. Issue/ event management, outage accountability & updates in line with advancements in cyber security are a few of the main reasons why companies choose to go down this path instead of custom made. ‘Why buy off the shelf’ is a question that would have been considered & answered we have to assume. Edit: it’s also somewhat of a myth that this kind of software can be designed quickly with relative ease. We use similar in my work (also used this one on reviews) and it took 1,000s of hours & millions of dollars to develop & make secure & compliant. Maintaining it also costs the company a pretty penny. I didn't ask for a lecture on software development. I know exactly what I am talking about. There are plenty of free open source content management systems out there which come with good security features. You don't need to create one from scratch. Not a single person suggested that. I asked a very specific question. Do you have an answer? If not kindly stop polluting the thread. Edited August 21, 2019 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, Kemp said: How does Bazil find the time to become an expert in so many subjects? I use a pretty decent CRM tool, it includes an effective mass email system and can integrate with a reliable polling app. It would cost 25 quid per month for what SMISA needs. This looks very nice with all the bells and whistles, but it hardly seems necessary. This Is similar to a system I use daily and part of my job involves assurance work on a number of other systems like this. I know the costs, I know the pros I know the limitations. But I’m no expert on ‘many subjects’ on here. Tbh I find a lot are more common sense. Let me ask you (and others) some questions then. Who are the target audience for these systems? Who should be buying them? Is it just a matter of fact there are cheaper options in paying someone to build a custom build system & the thousands of companies using these systems with likely many IT experts employed know less than a few guys on BAWA with I imagine little exposure to this specific system? Note I’m trying to be balanced here, have a conversation on it not a fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted August 21, 2019 Report Share Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, chalky1 said: Totally agree and that was why I mentioned it, worked in places where new system comes onboard with the promise that it can do this and do that. System gets launched only to discover that the package you paid for only allows you to do certain things Exactly. I am not a SMISA member and this is the sort of thing which concerns me when you have people making decisions outside their area of expertise without asking for help. A few of you know software well enough and one of you would be justified in asking whether they considered a Joomla based website with a freelancer setting it up. Total cost would have been £300 for the website, £1000 max for the development and a generous fan to provide a bit of minor maintenance from time to time. Edited August 21, 2019 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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