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I wish I could see it that way, but I can’t.
The turnaround under Jack Ross was fantastic.
We haven’t exactly built on that though. We scraped survival last season, basically spending a fair bit of the McGinn windfall on ending contracts and helping to pay the wages of the new guys. Then we have the battle of opinions regarding Kearney (I won’t go into that with you again as we agree to differ) but either way we started pre-season without a manager. The League Cup exit was a complete embarrassment, and swiftly ended one of our two hopes of a trophy this season.
We were led into believing the main reason behind this exit was that we were waiting on better signings. Considering we couldn’t score from open play against three part time sides, we were bloody hoping for it. So far, the good signings seem to limit to just three - Foley, McLoughlin and Broadfoot. We entered the season with 5 defenders and no full back cover for Waters the moment we met Kilmarnock. Our three strikers (leaving Cody out as he has been injured) have something like 5(?) goals between them.
Just like last season, we once again look like relegation fodder. We are now looking for a third “big January” in four seasons to bale us out. I don’t see this as progress, I see it as a stagnation that will result in eventual relegation. If that happens, I don’t see us making a swift return back to the top flight.
I want to be optimistic, I want to feel like we are progressing. But this does not look applicable to the word “progression.”
Totally agree.
Very well put.

Only a blinkered fool would argue against that!
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9 hours ago, waldorf34 said:

We know we cannot afford quality players but there is no excuse for that performance, nor our ineptitude  at set pieces, and total lack of effort or energy from some players.

Goodwin is a learner management wise,but he too has to stand up and take flack for poor tactics and player selection.

Bit of honesty all round would clear the air

I’m making absolutely no excuse for that performance. It was not acceptable on any level. But I don’t agree with where certain people are putting the blame (Gus & GLS) 

I still believe this squad is much stronger than last season & does not need wholesale changes. This is the level we’re operating at. We need to work to improve but it won’t come quickly.   

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9 hours ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

I wish I could see it that way, but I can’t.

The turnaround under Jack Ross was fantastic.

We haven’t exactly built on that though. We scraped survival last season, basically spending a fair bit of the McGinn windfall on ending contracts and helping to pay the wages of the new guys. Then we have the battle of opinions regarding Kearney (I won’t go into that with you again as we agree to differ) but either way we started pre-season without a manager. The League Cup exit was a complete embarrassment, and swiftly ended one of our two hopes of a trophy this season.

We were led into believing the main reason behind this exit was that we were waiting on better signings. Considering we couldn’t score from open play against three part time sides, we were bloody hoping for it. So far, the good signings seem to limit to just three - Foley, McLoughlin and Broadfoot. We entered the season with 5 defenders and no full back cover for Waters the moment we met Kilmarnock. Our three strikers (leaving Cody out as he has been injured) have something like 5(?) goals between them.

Just like last season, we once again look like relegation fodder. We are now looking for a third “big January” in four seasons to bale us out. I don’t see this as progress, I see it as a stagnation that will result in eventual relegation. If that happens, I don’t see us making a swift return back to the top flight.

I want to be optimistic, I want to feel like we are progressing. But this does not look applicable to the word “progression.”

We made a mistake under Stubbs, there’s no denying that. It turned out to be a setback & extremely costly. But we came out of it still as an SP club. People can choose to continue to throw that mistake back in people’s faces or they can accept it’s done & we move on. I choose the latter. 

For me first season in a higher league is always about survival & we did that. We have progressed since last season & it genuinely staggers me to think anyone would rather/ equal we were in December 2018s position to this one. 

I think where you and a certain stalker aren’t really getting this is, progress doesn’t mean an end line. Progress doesn’t mean we don’t think we should be doing better, I personally do think we should be doing better this season but we are still better placed than 7th in the championship. How on earth can anyone deny that? 

As for some of the other stuff you’ve said. The league cup campaign was inexcusable, I couldn’t agree more. This thread is about Gus & GLS though. To make my point abundantly clear, that fault was with the players & coaching staff only. They should have had enough without a single new signing to best non league & L1/L2 teams to a spot in later tournament. For me certain stalkers (I mean people) applying blame to the bod confirms their bias. 

As for the squad depth, we have 22 senior players & a set budget. For me I struggle with how this falls back on Gus & GLS. Surely the manager sets what he wants & yes maybe on hindsight he’d have wanted stronger cover at the back. That can be tweaked in January which is all I feel this window needs. You can think it’ll be more or that these are the same as the last two. I don’t based on all of the above. 

You are always very respectful & structured in debate. Suppose only ‘blinkered fools’ can’t see there are two sides. 

Edited by bazil85
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Guest TPAFKATS
Goody on record saying he’d be happy with a couple choice signings. I wasn’t happy at all with last nights performance but I still believe we are lightyears ahead of the team last season. 
I think this is glaringly obvious, despite the disappointment of the (non) performance against Motherwell.
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On 12/5/2019 at 10:23 AM, bazil85 said:

I've answered every question you've ever asked with evidence you've ever asked you just don't like the answers, there's a difference. Like I said all along we have a squad too small in numbers that therefore couldn't contain 4 CHs - QED,  and as a result is in a poor state as we move in the busiest part - all off your quibbles are irrelevant. Remember the post which started this spat - n-n-n-n-nineteen? Our current predicament was entirely predictable!

 I'm not going to let you bully me off the forum! and as for the smillies - it's all your bullying, naive, sycophantic and ultimately negative posts deserve! 😂😂😂

 

On 12/5/2019 at 10:23 AM, bazil85 said:

I'll repeat my arguments which are just as valid as the first time I made them - there was no need for late recruitment this summer GLS said we had  learned the lessons from the summer of 2017 and that GMs job was to provide continuity, GM himself defined his role saying it was mainly about recruitment - it's all there in black & white (sic). We lost the momentum we had from the end of last season when OK left, signings stalled and when they finally arrived they were too few and too late which in the words of our Chairman left us "behind the curve" and are bottom of the division, and the consequence was GLS expressing his judgement that GM failed in his role this summer - we're talking about a medium sized Scottish football club not the moon landings it's shouldn't be difficult to understand. As ever you're tying yourself in knots and your sycophantic defence of our beloved Chairman Hiram N. Firem - that he hired GM with no defined purpose is one of the most negative arguments I've read on this forum.   😂😂😂

 

On 12/5/2019 at 10:23 AM, bazil85 said:

Bully boy, liar, n-n-n-n-nineteen, behind the "curve" it's all still correct and always will be!!!!!!!!!.:1eye

There was no Masterplan, you threw yourself under the bus - LMFAO!!!!!! :lol:  

You're a negative, sycophantic poster, your one tactic of posting by attrition, bullying people out of the argument and then claiming that you won the argument has been sussed I'll keep on saying it, GLS admitted the TD role had failed this summer when he said we were "behind the curve" - are you calling him a liar? :rolleyes: 

Bazil85 - Yep I made an assumption

DoubleFlip85, a man with no sense of embarrassment or shame -5340 (and rising, always rising :rolleyes:) posts of humiliation, deceit, naivety, irrelevance, asinine egomania, boasting, pomposity, conceit, hubris, bluster, delusion, hysteria, panic, arrogance, evasion, mistakes, hypocrisy, subterfuge, sophistry, drivel, fantasy, negativity, nonsense, sycophancy and false allegations

Keep 'em coming loser85! 

Edited by Bud the Baker
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27 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

 

I've answered every question you've ever asked with evidence you've ever asked you just don't like the answers, there's a difference. Like I said all along we have a squad that  is inadequate in number  which is in a poor state as we move in the busiest part - all off your quibbles are irrelevant. Remember the post which started this spat - n-n-n-n-nineteen? Our current predicament was entirely predictable! - I'm not going to let you bully me off the forum!

 

More lies

What do you mean by “thrown under the bus”?

What’s the relevance in copy and pasting the assumption when it’s something I openly said I was doing?

Yes or no, this is a GLS quote?  “At present, we have a plan but not the manpower to DEFINE and execute it.” Double standards noted

Is there a difference in speaking about the team being “behind the curve” and an individual being a categorical “failure”?

What size of squad do you think would be big enough at our level? We had a bloated squad last season and really struggled, we’ve brought that down to 22 first team players and factually have picked up more points

19 players, so Cammy MacPherson isn’t part of the first team despite being shown to be back-up FB? You clearly don’t understand how 11 player starting sports work.

Show where I have attempted to remove you from the form? More lies. I am simply pointing out where you either lie, spin or can’t back-up your points.  

As for the smillies - it's all your bullying, naive, sycophantic and ultimately negative posts deserve! 

But you do have an overwhelming need to remain involved right? That seems completely clear.

I'll repeat my arguments which are just as valid as the first time I made them - there was no need for late recruitment this summer GLS said we had  learned the lessons from the summer of 2017 and that GMs job was to provide continuity, GM himself defined his role saying it was mainly about recruitment - it's all there in black & white (sic). We lost the momentum we had from the end of last season when OK left, signings stalled and when they finally arrived they were too few and too late which in the words of our Chairman left us "behind the curve" and are bottom of the division, and the consequence was GLS expressing his judgement that GM failed in his role this summer - we're talking about a medium sized Scottish football club not the moon landings it's shouldn't be difficult to understand. As ever you're tying yourself in knots and your sycophantic defence of our beloved Chairman Hiram N. Firem - that he hired GM with no defined purpose is one of the most negative arguments I've read on this forum.   

All addressed, your repetition doesn’t change the fact these comments aren’t based in evidence. Gus provided a continuity this summer so unless you can show where GLS specifically said he meant that Gus could recruit all positions without a manager your point remains beaten by the actual content.

‘Mainly’ you again admit it wasn’t fully. Continuity could always have meant Gus would fill gaps the manager left… You know exactly what he did with team training?

Gus also defined the role as “whatever the manager wants”

Show evidence we wanted more signings than we have currently

Show evidence better players were available to SMFC earlier

Rest is irrelevant repetition

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24 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

The board are the common denominator in all our woes. We wont improve until the intelligence, skill set and personnel on the board improve.

Common denominator in us going from bottom of the Championship to an SP team as well though right? And recording the fourth year of profits in a row, something only one other SP club have achieved. 

Coping mechanism for someone you dislike having a successful stint as SMFC chairman. Very clear  

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On 11/12/2019 at 11:39 AM, Bud the Baker said:

We have a squad of 22 out of which 3 are development players so really only 19  one of these is a panic buy from our summer holidays and two have poor fitness records, we're "behind the curve" as GLS admitted prior to the Celtic game, bottom of the Division and clearly have no alternatives the manager trusts which is to say the DoF role failed in the close season.

@bazil85 I'm gonna go back to the beginning and keep it simple for you this time - as I said nearly a month ago the core squad was inadequate. Just about everything you've posted since then has been either irrelevant, wrong, cheap debating tricks or cliched internet memes in an attempt to bully me out of the argument which as I've said isn't gonna happen..

We are currently in the busiest part of the season and the squad is beginning to crumble - entirely predictable.

***************************

,,,,and it's taken you the best part of a month to realise you don't understand what "thrown under a bus" means - LMFAO! :lol:

Edited by Bud the Baker
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Here is the dilemma come the transfer window :-

Do we sign one or two and stay close to budget and taken on a higher risk of relegation   OR

Try and get four or five that will improve us and reduce the relegation risk but spend a wee bit beyond our means for once?

I know there are fans who vehemently want us to never rack up any debts, but relegation would seriously affect our future income - its next season the big tv deal kicks in, is it not?

Kellerman is away, I could add in another 3 or 4 who could also go and some of the younger lads could go out on loan too to help finances. 

We really need to win ugly or otherwise against Hamilton, Livi and the Fakes (minimum 2 wins and a draw - and I am not confident we will managed that, but that would easy a whole lot of pressure on players and management as well as giving the fans some Christmas Cheer) 3 wins against these teams, well that would be a dream - not sure if it could be a reality though !

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3 hours ago, bazil85 said:

We made a mistake under Stubbs, there’s no denying that. It turned out to be a setback & extremely costly. But we came out of it still as an SP club. People can choose to continue to throw that mistake back in people’s faces or they can accept it’s done & we move on. I choose the latter. 

For me first season in a higher league is always about survival & we did that. We have progressed since last season & it genuinely staggers me to think anyone would rather/ equal we were in December 2018s position to this one. 

I think where you and a certain stalker aren’t really getting this is, progress doesn’t mean an end line. Progress doesn’t mean we don’t think we should be doing better, I personally do think we should be doing better this season but we are still better placed than 7th in the championship. How on earth can anyone deny that? 

As for some of the other stuff you’ve said. The league cup campaign was inexcusable, I couldn’t agree more. This thread is about Gus & GLS though. To make my point abundantly clear, that fault was with the players & coaching staff only. They should have had enough without a single new signing to best non league & L1/L2 teams to a spot in later tournament. For me certain stalkers (I mean people) applying blame to the bod confirms their bias. 

As for the squad depth, we have 22 senior players & a set budget. For me I struggle with how this falls back on Gus & GLS. Surely the manager sets what he wants & yes maybe on hindsight he’d have wanted stronger cover at the back. That can be tweaked in January which is all I feel this window needs. You can think it’ll be more or that these are the same as the last two. I don’t based on all of the above. 

You are always very respectful & structured in debate. Suppose only ‘blinkered fools’ can’t see there are two sides. 

I would agree that the first season back up is about survival. The target was met, which I’m thankful for. We were lucky that Dundee were absolutely woeful, but at the same time that’s Dundee’s fault for being that way and that worked in our favour. The first half of the season wasn’t your typical survival though trying to pick up what you can, we spent the whole time checking up the results of Accies and Dundee because we were hopeless.

I’m in two minds regarding the League Cup debacle. I agree that the players we had should have sealed progress either way, but the squad was also quite threadbare at the time and options were limited. Most of our bench was filled with youth players and we had no depth - it’s that side of it where I blame the board (I don’t blame Gus for anything as his job role has never been specified 100% by the club - a question I would like to ask the ins and outs of it if I was to ever attend a Q&A). For me the blame here goes both ways for seperate reasons.

The lack of defensive cover has to be blamed on the individual who decided Baird should go out on loan, and whoever thought 1 LB (who can’t face Killie) and 1 RB would be enough. Whether that’s Goodwin, GLS, Gus, Fitzy, someone messed up big time there.

I think our personal meanings of this progress are different. Yes, you are certainly correct - we are in a higher league than where we started. In that sense, yes we’ve made progress. For me though, I don’t see the club heading anywhere right now, the same mistakes are being repeated over and over, and my concern is that we are not doing enough to prevent a quick relegation which would place us back to square one. Relegation within 2 or 3 years isn’t really progress if we start off where we began.

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The minimum required is a left back, central defender (possibly two if McLoughlin doesn't extend)  and striker. How we fund that is a matter for the club but if those three positions are not strengthened we are in trouble.  Lets also hope McLaughlin doesn't pick up an injury before either Kirk or GMac are fit again or we really would be in the sh1t !!!

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18 minutes ago, Ayrshire Saints said:

The minimum required is a left back, central defender (possibly two if McLoughlin doesn't extend)  and striker. How we fund that is a matter for the club but if those three positions are not strengthened we are in trouble.  Lets also hope McLaughlin doesn't pick up an injury before either Kirk or GMac are fit again or we really would be in the sh1t !!!

Given that we're currently  bottom of the division and may well still be there at the end of the month we're gonna require at least one inspired signing like Popescu last January to remedy this.

Edited by Bud the Baker
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I've answered every question you've ever asked with evidence you've ever asked you just don't like the answers, there's a difference. Like I said all along we have a squad that  is inadequate in number  which is in a poor state as we move in the busiest part - all off your quibbles are irrelevant. Remember the post which started this spat - n-n-n-n-nineteen? Our current predicament was entirely predictable! - I'm not going to let you bully me off the forum!
 
More lies
What do you mean by “thrown under the bus”?
What’s the relevance in copy and pasting the assumption when it’s something I openly said I was doing?
Yes or no, this is a GLS quote?  “At present, we have a plan but not the manpower to DEFINE and execute it.” Double standards noted
Is there a difference in speaking about the team being “behind the curve” and an individual being a categorical “failure”?
What size of squad do you think would be big enough at our level? We had a bloated squad last season and really struggled, we’ve brought that down to 22 first team players and factually have picked up more points
19 players, so Cammy MacPherson isn’t part of the first team despite being shown to be back-up FB? You clearly don’t understand how 11 player starting sports work.
Show where I have attempted to remove you from the form? More lies. I am simply pointing out where you either lie, spin or can’t back-up your points.  
As for the smillies - it's all your bullying, naive, sycophantic and ultimately negative posts deserve! 
But you do have an overwhelming need to remain involved right? That seems completely clear.
I'll repeat my arguments which are just as valid as the first time I made them - there was no need for late recruitment this summer GLS said we had  learned the lessons from the summer of 2017 and that GMs job was to provide continuity, GM himself defined his role saying it was mainly about recruitment - it's all there in black & white (sic). We lost the momentum we had from the end of last season when OK left, signings stalled and when they finally arrived they were too few and too late which in the words of our Chairman left us "behind the curve" and are bottom of the division, and the consequence was GLS expressing his judgement that GM failed in his role this summer - we're talking about a medium sized Scottish football club not the moon landings it's shouldn't be difficult to understand. As ever you're tying yourself in knots and your sycophantic defence of our beloved Chairman Hiram N. Firem - that he hired GM with no defined purpose is one of the most negative arguments I've read on this forum.   
All addressed, your repetition doesn’t change the fact these comments aren’t based in evidence. Gus provided a continuity this summer so unless you can show where GLS specifically said he meant that Gus could recruit all positions without a manager your point remains beaten by the actual content.
‘Mainly’ you again admit it wasn’t fully. Continuity could always have meant Gus would fill gaps the manager left… You know exactly what he did with team training?
Gus also defined the role as “whatever the manager wants”
Show evidence we wanted more signings than we have currently
Show evidence better players were available to SMFC earlier
Rest is irrelevant repetition

ffs your post are far too long [emoji6]
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Season after season after season its the same old thing that's spoken about on here on how pish we are and how to fix it. I don't know the answer to that dilemma and it does not look like anyone at the club does either maybe we should just resign our self's to the fact that's the way it's always going to be. 

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Guest TPAFKATS
Season after season after season its the same old thing that's spoken about on here on how pish we are and how to fix it. I don't know the answer to that dilemma and it does not look like anyone at the club does either maybe we should just resign our self's to the fact that's the way it's always going to be. 
I think some fans are genuinely surprised that we might get relegated at some point. It's frustrating to see Killie, St. Johnstone, Motherwell and especially Hamilton have such long runs in top flight but most clubs are yo-yo clubs including the Edinburgh 2 recently.
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52 minutes ago, Long John Baldy said:

I'd hardly put Hearts or Hibs in the bracket of yo-yo clubs.

Hearts, once out of the top flight in the last 20 years, Hibs, 3 successive years in the last 20. 

I always see it in terms of Tiers

  1.  The OF - Took a massive breach of financial rules for Oldco to be expelled from the top flight.
  2.  Aberdeen, Hibe & Hearts - seldom relegated and Aberdeen never although they would've been in play-offs had Fallirk's ground been deemed acceptable back in 2000.
  3. The rest of the division (Yo-Yo Teams) - Motherwell are the longest standing in the top flight but they would've gone in 2003 but for Falkirk.
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Guest TPAFKATS
I'd hardly put Hearts or Hibs in the bracket of yo-yo clubs.
Hearts, once out of the top flight in the last 20 years, Hibs, 3 successive years in the last 20. 
I did say recently
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On 12/6/2019 at 11:58 AM, Cornwall_Saint said:

I would agree that the first season back up is about survival. The target was met, which I’m thankful for. We were lucky that Dundee were absolutely woeful, but at the same time that’s Dundee’s fault for being that way and that worked in our favour. The first half of the season wasn’t your typical survival though trying to pick up what you can, we spent the whole time checking up the results of Accies and Dundee because we were hopeless.

I’m in two minds regarding the League Cup debacle. I agree that the players we had should have sealed progress either way, but the squad was also quite threadbare at the time and options were limited. Most of our bench was filled with youth players and we had no depth - it’s that side of it where I blame the board (I don’t blame Gus for anything as his job role has never been specified 100% by the club - a question I would like to ask the ins and outs of it if I was to ever attend a Q&A). For me the blame here goes both ways for seperate reasons.

The lack of defensive cover has to be blamed on the individual who decided Baird should go out on loan, and whoever thought 1 LB (who can’t face Killie) and 1 RB would be enough. Whether that’s Goodwin, GLS, Gus, Fitzy, someone messed up big time there.

I think our personal meanings of this progress are different. Yes, you are certainly correct - we are in a higher league than where we started. In that sense, yes we’ve made progress. For me though, I don’t see the club heading anywhere right now, the same mistakes are being repeated over and over, and my concern is that we are not doing enough to prevent a quick relegation which would place us back to square one. Relegation within 2 or 3 years isn’t really progress if we start off where we began.

All fair points. But like I say, my comments on progress aren’t meant to be an end point. Still much to be done. 

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On 12/6/2019 at 11:46 AM, Bud the Baker said:

@bazil85 I'm gonna go back to the beginning and keep it simple for you this time - as I said nearly a month ago the core squad was inadequate. Just about everything you've posted since then has been either irrelevant, wrong, cheap debating tricks or cliched internet memes in an attempt to bully me out of the argument which as I've said isn't gonna happen..

We are currently in the busiest part of the season and the squad is beginning to crumble - entirely predictable.

***************************

,,,,and it's taken you the best part of a month to realise you don't understand what "thrown under a bus" means - LMFAO! :lol:

What a decisive goal today from a player not in our first team plans 😂😂😂

I know what it means but can’t understand the relevance. In other words, there is none. 

Edited by bazil85
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44 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

All fair points. But like I say, my comments on progress aren’t meant to be an end point. Still much to be done. 

I think the one thing we can definitely agree on is that today’s result is a very delightful three points.

With us finally doing something other than losing away from home, hopefully that’s a weight off their shoulders and they kick on from here.

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2 hours ago, bazil85 said:

What a decisive goal today from a player not in our first team plans 😂😂😂

I know what it means but can’t understand the relevance. In other words, there is none. 

 

Nope that's not what I said (see below) - I said CM was still only a development player and would only be used as a last resort by Goodwin and differentiated between him and Breadner, Djirkaeff and Erhahon. 😂😂😂

As ever misrepresenting what other folk post.  😂😂😂

I'm glad to see CM score today it doesn't change anything else the squad is still to small and assembled too late leaving us in the words of our Chairman "behind the curve" and the TD work this summer a failure.  😂😂😂

You threw yourself under a bus when you decided to decide the indefensible, totally relevant - LMFAO!  😂😂😂

 
  On 11/12/2019 at 11:39 AM, Bud the Baker sa
Quote

 

We have a squad of 22 out of which 3 are development players so really only 19  one of these is a panic buy from our summer holidays and two have poor fitness records, we're "behind the curve" as GLS admitted prior to the Celtic game, bottom of the Division and clearly have no alternatives the manager trusts which is to say the DoF role failed in the close season.

have

 

 
 
Edited by Bud the Baker
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46 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

 

Nope that's not what I said - I said CM was still only a development player and would only be used as a last resort by Goodwin and differentiated between him and Breadner, Djirkaeff and Erhahon. 😂😂😂

As ever misrepresenting what other folk post.  😂😂😂

I'm glad to see CM score today it doesn't change anything else the squad is still to small and assembled too late leaving us in the words of our Chairman "behind the curve" and the TD work this summer a failure.  😂😂😂

You threw yourself under a bus when you decided to decide the indefensible, totally relevant - LMFAO!  😂😂😂

 
  On 11/12/2019 at 11:39 AM, Bud the Baker sa
 
 

Beep beep beep. 😂

Interesting you would rather we broke our budget & overspent this summer than continued to run as a business... 

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7 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

I always see it in terms of Tiers

  1.  The OF - Took a massive breach of financial rules for Oldco to be expelled from the top flight.
  2.  Aberdeen, Hibe & Hearts - seldom relegated and Aberdeen never although they would've been in play-offs had Fallirk's ground been deemed acceptable back in 2000.
  3. The rest of the division (Yo-Yo Teams) - Motherwell are the longest standing in the top flight but they would've gone in 2003 but for Falkirk.

Motherwell have been in the top division since about 1985, hardly a yo yo team. Killie also have had about 20 odd years in the top flight. Even St Johnstone have had about 8 years. The definition of a yo yo team is they go up, then down, then up again. Don't think any of these teams fit the description.

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