Sue Denim Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Research estimates that at least 20,000 excess deaths were caused by the lockdown policy rather than COVID. This is what you supported @bazil85 https://www.lboro.ac.uk/news-events/news/2020/july/new-approach-to-recording-covid-deaths/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 (edited) This may help "people" understand a little more about the deployment and value/worth of facts. https://xkcd.com/2080/ I won't hold my breath. ps Move your cursor over the cartoon, for a further 'fact', ba.... Edited August 7, 2020 by antrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Remarkably, this cartoon could also be instructive... https://xkcd.com/675/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Slarti said: Asking questions about the specifics of your claims isn't effective??? What the f**k does that even mean? Unless it means that you avoid answering. We are both in agreement that lockdown saved more than zero lives, the odds it didn't in a country the size of the UK are so large, they realistically can't be calculated. You focusing on the pedantic nature of making that claim without showing a factual case is ridiculous and as such I disregarded it. Same as I would do if you did the same in the dice example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 34 minutes ago, Sue Denim said: From The Lancet: ”Rapid border closures, full lockdowns, and wide-spread testing were not associated with COVID-19 mortality per million people. ” Who to believe.... the experts or @bazil85? https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30208-X/fulltext# "However, full lockdowns and reduced country vulnerability to biological threats were significantly associated with increased patient recovery rates." 32 minutes ago, Sue Denim said: Heart attack deaths rose 40% during lockdown as experts say No 10's 'Stay at Home' drive could have deterred thousands from getting medical help Lockdown killed tens of 000s more than it saved, eh @bazil85? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8592287/Stay-Home-messaging-led-spike-heart-attack-deaths.html That's very sad, 2,000 potentially avoidable deaths coupled with the over 46,000 and rising covid19 reported deaths. As has been my point throughout this horrible situation, there has never appeared to be a situation where people don't die during this pandemic. Although some silver linings, "The number of patients who suffered a STEMI heart attack — the most serious and life-threatening kind — was down by 49 per cent during lockdown." An unexpected benefit from lockdown as well? 30 minutes ago, Sue Denim said: Research estimates that at least 20,000 excess deaths were caused by the lockdown policy rather than COVID. This is what you supported @bazil85 https://www.lboro.ac.uk/news-events/news/2020/july/new-approach-to-recording-covid-deaths/ Nothing in that article concludes not having any kind of lockdown was the right call. You are yet to show one reputable scientific report that concludes Andy's view that zero lockdown was the right call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Slarti said: Like me, you're wasting your time. He's already been told all this by several people. He, no matter what he claims, is not interested in debate, I'd be surprised if he even knew how to properly debate a point. I haven't even tried to debate him, just asked him for the evidence that he drew his conclusions from. Everyone knows that there isn't enough evidence yet to draw conclusions, even he admits it, yet he continues to call everything he posts a "fact". Admittedly, he did post something above as his opinion, so maybe he's learning. I suspect that he counts people getting fed up with his pettiness and childishness and no longer engaging with him as a victory. That's all that seems to matter to him. He appears to have no interest in learning anything. Personally, I would want to know if I'm wrong on something, I suspect most people are the same, but he seems to be one of the exceptions. As for his dice example ... You can defend your argument technique all you want but it boils down to getting fixated on "prove not one person alive today would be dead if we hadn't locked down a country of 66 million" lol. Aye that's a really strong approach, you've done the right thing to obsess over it... Also these arguments have been going on for months, it wasn't until you joined that the level of trivial and pedantry fell to such depths. Now that is fact. Edited August 7, 2020 by bazil85 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 No. It's your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russian Saint Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 4,200 Covid deaths in England to be wiped off the death toll. As I’ve been pointing out, down in England they’ve been overinflating the the Covid deaths while up here in Scotland, they’ve been trying to conceal the true figures. Thankfully we had the weekly excess deaths mortality reports from the ONS and NRS to get the true picture. https://metro.co.uk/2020/08/07/nearly-4200-deaths-wiped-official-statistics-due-counting-error-13094465/amp/I’d be very interested in the actual figures for those unfortunates that actually died from COVID, not the figures including those that are “linked” to COVID (cold, flu, asthma, torn sock etc) that conveniently had COD as COVID on the death certificate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 17 minutes ago, antrin said: No. It's your opinion. More than zero people were saved due to lockdown in the UK, that is fact. If a validation study was somehow able to be carried out on it, it would clarify that as true. To claim it might not be true because such a study hasn't happened or for whatever other reason is pedantic. Yet again the troops rally together lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 We are both in agreement that lockdown saved more than zero lives, the odds it didn't in a country the size of the UK are so large, they realistically can't be calculated. You focusing on the pedantic nature of making that claim without showing a factual case is ridiculous and as such I disregarded it. Same as I would do if you did the same in the dice example. No, we aren't in agreement. You say it's a fact, I say it's probable, IMO, that specific people have been saved but possibly at the cost of others dying.If the odds it didn't can't be calculated, how have you managed to work out the odds that it did? It is a dichotomy, it either has or it hasn't, if you don't know the odds for one, you can't know the odds for the other. If you know the odds for one, then you know the odds for the other.Exactly how did you determine the odds can't be calculated anyway? Another unsubstantiated claim?You can disregard what you want, it won't make you any less wrong.Dice! [emoji38] You can defend your argument technique all you want but it boils down to getting fixated on "prove not one person alive today would be dead if we hadn't locked down a country of 66 million" lol. Aye that's a really strong approach, you've done the right thing to obsess over it... Also these arguments have been going on for months, it wasn't until you joined that the level of trivial and pedantry fell to such depths. Now that is fact. Of course it boils down to that because you made the claim that it was a fact. All I want to know is how you determined it was a fact. Because you say so?No, it's your opinion. More than zero people were saved due to lockdown in the UK, that is fact. If a validation study was somehow able to be carried out on it, it would clarify that as true. To claim it might not be true because such a study hasn't happened or for whatever other reason is pedantic. Yet again the troops rally together lol. Again, no, it's only your opinion. Maybe you should wait for the validation study before you claim anything as fact. Even if a validation study did prove you were right, it does not mean that it is a fact just now. How do you not understand that. If we go to your dice ( [emoji38] ), if you said "it will be a six, fact" and it came up a six, that does not mean that your claim was a fact, it just means you guessed correctly.It's not pedantic, it's reality. You are now admitting that you are claiming this is true without an assessment being done. Thanks for admitting it's only your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Remarkably, this cartoon could also be instructive... https://xkcd.com/675/ [emoji38]Nail, head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 This may help "people" understand a little more about the deployment and value/worth of facts. https://xkcd.com/2080/ I won't hold my breath. ps Move your cursor over the cartoon, for a further 'fact', ba.... [emoji38] I (obviously) don't have a curser on my phone, what does it say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smcc Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Sue Denim said: From The Lancet: ”Rapid border closures, full lockdowns, and wide-spread testing were not associated with COVID-19 mortality per million people. ” Who to believe.... the experts or @bazil85? https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30208-X/fulltext# From the same paper However, full lockdowns (RR=2.47: 95%CI: 1.08–5.64) and reduced country vulnerability to biological threats (i.e. high scores on the global health security scale for risk environment) (RR=1.55; 95%CI: 1.13–2.12) were significantly associated with increased patient recovery rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Slarti said: I (obviously) don't have a curser on my phone, what does it say? Younger people get very few joint replacements, yet they're also getting more than older people did at the same age. This means you can choose between 'Why are millennials getting so (many/few) joint replacements?' depending on which trend fits your current argument better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 And the alt text for the other cartoon: I mean, what's more likely -- that I have uncovered fundamental flaws in this field that no one in it has ever thought about, or that I need to read a little more? Hint: it's the one that involves less work. btw even a lazy person could have just googled n their hones to satisfy that curiosity... just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 3 hours ago, bazil85 said: Also these arguments have been going on for months, it wasn't until you joined that the level of trivial and pedantry fell to such depths. Now that is fact. 3 hours ago, antrin said: No. It's your opinion. 3 hours ago, bazil85 said: More than zero people were saved due to lockdown in the UK, that is fact. That "More than zero people were saved due to lockdown in the UK, that is fact." may be debateable. And may be a likely outcome. However your first post above - that I point out is merely opinion - had nothing to with that. Why drag it in unless to muddy your waters? Your petty obfuscation does you no favours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 And the alt text for the other cartoon: I mean, what's more likely -- that I have uncovered fundamental flaws in this field that no one in it has ever thought about, or that I need to read a little more? Hint: it's the one that involves less work. btw even a lazy person could have just googled n their hones to satisfy that curiosity... just saying. [emoji4] Aye, but this way involves less work ... for me. [emoji38] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Slarti said: I (obviously) don't have a curser on my phone, what does it say? I think you'll find that the entity attached to the fingertips that operate your phone is probably a curser. Edited August 7, 2020 by antrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 That "More than zero people were saved due to lockdown in the UK, that is fact." may be debateable. And may be a likely outcome. However your first post above - that I point out is merely opinion - had nothing to with that. Why drag it in unless to muddy your waters? Your petty obfuscation does you no favours.He'll probably tell you it did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 I think you'll find that the entity attached to the fingertips that operate you phone is probably a curser.Aye, awright, ya pedant. [emoji38] [emoji38] [emoji38] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salmonbuddie Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 [emoji38] I (obviously) don't have a curser on my phone, what does it say? I think you'll find that the entity attached to the fingertips that operate your phone is probably a curser.Aye, awright, ya pedant. [emoji38] [emoji38] [emoji38] Open goal, missed...[emoji846] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Open goal, missed...[emoji846]Naw, I'm too much of a gentleman to stoop to that level. Ya cnut. [emoji38] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Denim Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 SAGE estimates 81,500 people to die as a result of lockdown measures @bazil85 Personally, I think this is on the low side. Totally dwarfs any possible number of lives saved (which is probably zero) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Denim Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Hilarious stuff from fascist dictator Sturgeon What a complete joke this country is https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53697673 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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