Coronavirus

[Sue Denim]

4 hours ago, smcc said:

You have no idea(and never will have) how many people would have died from Covid-19 infection if lockdown had not been instigated.

Indeed, it’s purely my opinion.

But as lockdown was the intervention it’s up to those who imposed it and supported it to demonstrate the benefits.

I’m demonstrating the downsides. We have fact for that.

Up to those supporting the lockdown and restrictions to demonstrate the positives and that they outweigh the the negatives.....

on you go then .......

Edited August 29, 2020 by Sue Denim

[Sue Denim]

12 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

Yeah I'm well aware of her point, I just don't think that comparing infectious and non-infectious diseases is valid I still think the decision to lockdown in March was correct.

 Can you prove lockdown in the UK has killed more people than the virus - nothing you've posted so far has?

It’s up to the lockdown brigade to demonstrate the positives of lockdown.

I’ve demonstrated the negatives. On you go and prove that the positives have outweighed the negatives......

[smcc]

1 hour ago, Sue Denim said:

Indeed, it’s purely my opinion.

But as lockdown was the intervention it’s up to those who imposed it and supported it to demonstrate the benefits.

I’m demonstrating the downsides. We have fact for that.

Up to those supporting the lockdown and restrictions to demonstrate the positives and that they outweigh the the negatives.....

on you go then .......

The only way to show how many would have died of covid-19 without lockdown is to enter H G Wells's time machine and go back 5 months to reverse the lockdown. I am sure that you know that when you ask for proof. What you can be sure of is that there would have been many more Covid deaths without lockdown.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So how was trafalgar square today?
Anybody get a selfie with David Icke?

[Slarti]

The only way to show how many would have died of covid-19 without lockdown is to enter H G Wells's time machine and go back 5 months to reverse the lockdown. I am sure that you know that when you ask for proof. What you can be sure of is that there would have been many more Covid deaths without lockdown.

There was someone on here who knew the facts of the matter without having a time machine, can't recall who, though.

The last part is also something that you can't demonstrate with the aforementioned time machine, so it depends on what you mean by "be sure of".

[Hendo]

On 8/29/2020 at 7:59 AM, Bud the Baker said:

Yeah I'm well aware of her point, I just don't think that comparing infectious and non-infectious diseases is valid I still think the decision to lockdown in March was correct.

 Can you prove lockdown in the UK has killed more people than the virus - nothing you've posted so far has?

Lockdown in March was the correct thing to do, IMO it should have happened a couple of weeks earlier. However, the way they locked down was mad - frontline health services effectively packed up and went home. I went to my GP in March for a repeat prescription and was chased put the building by some receptionist shouting they don't see members of the public any more. So, in a health crisis, the government's response was to send home all frontline health workers, and cancel all non Covid related health care. Their subsequent protestations and concerns about people not presenting at health services ran a bit hollow.

I see swimming pools can open from tomorrow, but changing rooms won't be open, meaning you have to turn up in your costume, and also leave like that, presumably soaking wet 😂 Meanwhile, only 300 fans will be allowed into football matches when fans are finally allowed back in. This is to protect against a deadly killer virus that has killed 2 people in Scotland in the last six weeks.

[Bud the Baker]

13 hours ago, Sue Denim said:

It’s up to the lockdown brigade to demonstrate the positives of lockdown.

I’ve demonstrated the negatives. On you go and prove that the positives have outweighed the negatives......

Lockdown achieved what it set out to do - prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed in the early stages of a pandemic about which little was known - it clearly worked, you can't get more positive than that. Overall no-one can prove whether the positives outweighed the negatives yet (as I've said on a number of occasions ) but my opinion remains that erring on the side of caution was the correct course of action in March -  my main criticism is that it should have been implemented earlier. I would hope ongoing policy changes as we learn from the first six months, mistakes and successes, however the current Westminster policy seems to be to lurch about in pursuit of popular opinion.

Mistakes have clearly been made but gloating over people dying from non-Covid causes is different from demonstrating the negatives.

 

 

[Russian Saint]

Lockdown in March was the correct thing to do, IMO it should have happened a couple of weeks earlier. However, the way they locked down was mad - frontline health services effectively packed up and went home. I went to my GP in March for a repeat prescription and was chased put the building by some receptionist shouting they don't see members of the public any more. So, in a health crisis, the government's response was to send home all frontline health workers, and cancel all non Covid related health care. Their subsequent protestations and concerns about people not presenting at health services ran a bit hollow.
I see swimming pools can open from tomorrow, but changing rooms won't be open, meaning you have to turn up in your costume, and also leave like that, presumably soaking wet [emoji23] Meanwhile, only 300 fans will be allowed into football matches when fans are finally allowed back in. This is to protect against a deadly killer virus that has killed 2 people in Scotland in the last six weeks.

Totally agree. However, those two deaths that you mention, we no longer hear if it was directly or indirectly due to COVID. We’re these two unfortunates elderly? Underlying health conditions etc. Why are we not being told this information anymore.

[Bud the Baker]

24 minutes ago, Hendo said:

Lockdown in March was the correct thing to do, IMO it should have happened a couple of weeks earlier. However, the way they locked down was mad - frontline health services effectively packed up and went home. I went to my GP in March for a repeat prescription and was chased put the building by some receptionist shouting they don't see members of the public any more. So, in a health crisis, the government's response was to send home all frontline health workers, and cancel all non Covid related health care. Their subsequent protestations and concerns about people not presenting at health services ran a bit hollow.

I see swimming pools can open from tomorrow, but changing rooms won't be open, meaning you have to turn up in your costume, and also leave like that, presumably soaking wet 😂 Meanwhile, only 300 fans will be allowed into football matches when fans are finally allowed back in. This is to protect against a deadly killer virus that has killed 2 people in Scotland in the last six weeks.

Yeah I think at times certain NHS workers have demonstrated a "holier than thou" attitude, I've experienced it myself, and perhaps the NHS did jettison too much of the non-Covid work back in March as I've said hopefully the NHS acknowledges and learns from it's mistakes. This is where I think NS/Holyrood has been better during the pandemic than BJ/Westminster desperately trying to shift the blame elsewhere.

I wasn't thinking about going back to the pool yet but yeah the routine you describe does seem to be a bit crazy , but regarding attendances AFAIK the limits to the number of fans allowed into matches more about potential "hotspots" like toilets at halftime where transmission risks will be amplified rather than just sitting in a seat for 90 minutes. Finally I'd argue Covid is merely in abeyance it hasn't been eradicated - it's still a deadly killer virus.

[Slarti]

Lockdown achieved what it set out to do - prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed in the early stages of a pandemic about which little was known - it clearly worked, you can't get more positive than that. Overall no-one can prove whether the positives outweighed the negatives yet (as I've said on a number of occasions ) but my opinion remains that erring on the side of caution was the correct course of action in March -  my main criticism is that it should have been implemented earlier. I would hope ongoing policy changes as we learn from the first six months, mistakes and successes, however the current Westminster policy seems to be to lurch about in pursuit of popular opinion.
Mistakes have clearly been made but gloating over people dying from non-Covid causes is different from demonstrating the negatives.
 
 

Yep, it's probably the only thing that can be shown as fact at the moment.

[oaksoft]

19 hours ago, Slarti said:

There is one person who KNOWS - guess who?

Why on earth would you tempt fate?

[oaksoft]

2 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

Lockdown achieved what it set out to do - prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed in the early stages of a pandemic about which little was known - it clearly worked, you can't get more positive than that. Overall no-one can prove whether the positives outweighed the negatives yet (as I've said on a number of occasions ) but my opinion remains that erring on the side of caution was the correct course of action in March -  my main criticism is that it should have been implemented earlier. I would hope ongoing policy changes as we learn from the first six months, mistakes and successes, however the current Westminster policy seems to be to lurch about in pursuit of popular opinion.

Mistakes have clearly been made but gloating over people dying from non-Covid causes is different from demonstrating the negatives.

 

 

...and then when it was clear the NHS wasn't going to be overwhelmed and that hundreds of thousands were clearly not going to die from it, they should have started re-opening some things very early with local lockdowns if spikes occurred. The case for continued lockdown ended months ago.

I also agreed with the lockdown and I also suspect it probably worked but we've been needing to move away from this panic nonsense for ages. The risk averse and the panic merchants have completely taken over things.

[Hendo]

1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

...and then when it was clear the NHS wasn't going to be overwhelmed and that hundreds of thousands were clearly not going to die from it, they should have started re-opening some things very early with local lockdowns if spikes occurred. The case for continued lockdown ended months ago.

I also agreed with the lockdown and I also suspect it probably worked but we've been needing to move away from this panic nonsense for ages. The risk averse and the panic merchants have completely taken over things.

Not often I agree with you Oaky, but you are on the money here. The fatality rate for Covid is now about 0.3%, which is lower than the fatality rate for the flu, yet still we are getting an entirely disproportionate response given the current low level of risk.

[Slarti]

Why on earth would you tempt fate?

I don't believe in fate.

[smcc]

9 hours ago, Slarti said:

 

 

There was someone on here who knew the facts of the matter without having a time machine, can't recall who, though.

The last part is also something that you can't demonstrate with the aforementioned time machine, so it depends on what you mean by "be sure of".

 

If you could go back in time and stop the lockdown you could then follow events up to the present day. I am pretty sure that without lockdown there would have been a much larger number of infections and, as a result, many more deaths.

[ALBIONSAINT]

 

An 'old man in a chair' pulling rabbits from his bag of 'truths'

Vernon Coleman is peddling played-out Covid-19 conspiracy theories

PUBLISHED : 27 JUN 2020 AT 04:00

NEWSPAPER SECTION: NEWS

WRITER: OLIVER FENNELL

• 500
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
• 16

Vernon Coleman, a prolific author and doctor, is seen on a YouTube video clip.

An old man in a chair sits, legs crossed, next to a dark-wood bookcase stocked with hardbacks. He speaks of "the truth" about coronavirus and repeats many of the conspiracy theories we've heard elsewhere, but he does so calmly, reading from prepared notes, peering over half-moon spectacles.

He speaks with the structure, timbre and pace of the experienced wordsmith; indeed, Vernon Coleman is a prolific author and a former newspaper columnist. Importantly for his followers, he is also a doctor.

In latter years, major publishers have refused his work, he has resigned from newspapers whose editors disagreed with his opinions, and YouTube often deletes his videos. To his opponents, this validates the argument his material is dangerous; to his supporters, it validates the belief he is being silenced. Dr Coleman has alleged that pharmaceutical companies control Britain's National Health Service (NHS). He is anti-vaccine. He has claimed GPs are among the top three causes of death in the United Kingdom. In the 1980s, he called Aids "the hoax of the century". Now, he says the same of coronavirus.

 

His suggestion that Aids presents a minimal risk to heterosexual people (the rate of heterosexual HIV diagnoses in the US in 2018 was actually 24%, according to hiv.org) is one of the "many truths" that Dr Coleman claims to have exposed, leading to him being "banned by all mainstream media".

Now it is coronavirus which has him delving into his bag of "truths", and in doing so, taking the less imaginative approach favoured by less qualified commentators -- that of attempting to convince doubters by stating earnestly "these are the facts".

Government officials do not feel the need to specify their coronavirus briefings are "the truth". Newspaper articles are not prefaced with a qualification that what follows are "facts". But in their eagerness to convince us of their legitimacy, conspiracy theorists sprinkle these two words throughout their digital missives, so much so that the words themselves have become cliches.

Indeed, these self-proclaimed "truthers" are adept at sloganeering. Whether it is deliberate or merely a modern consequence, who knows? But their employment of a tactic that Dr Coleman criticises is just one of many contradictions.

They label the public "sheeple" and decry the "brainwashing" we have undergone, at the same time as unhesitatingly lapping up any conspiratorial crumb flicked their way. "Question everything", they insist, but then ignore us when we question them. They indignantly tell us to "Do your research", but fail to fact-check the material they share. They clamour for "freedom of speech", but kick dissenting voices out of their forums. They accuse the media of "scaremongering", and then tell us 5G is what's killing people, that our facemasks are making us sick, and that a coronavirus vaccine will implant tracking bugs in us. There is an unrelenting denouncement of "fake news" while disseminating that very thing.
 

The coronavirus crisis is labelled variously as a "plandemic" or a "scamdemic". Those who do not believe are urged to "wake up!", and material is distributed invariably with a plea to "share this with everybody before it gets taken down!".

And in that, we get a hint of their motivations. In the social media age, the share is the most quantifiable currency. It not only brings new names to the fore, it grants renewed momentum to discredited and vengeful public figures such as Judy Mikovitz, and it resurrects relics like David Icke -- and Vernon Coleman.

Don't imagine, either, that old-fashioned currency is not a motivation. The truther movement, among its higher ranks at least, is commercial. "Follow the money", we are told, to find what's really behind coronavirus. But banned videos resurface on for-profit platforms. Donations are sought for oblique "research". Public speakers charge thousands of dollars. Icke's website has a £99 (3,800 baht) paywall and a shop. And Dr Coleman's videos are rounded off with a two-minute entreaty to "ask everyone you know" to watch his channel and visit his website -- from where you can buy his books. QAnon, probably the leading conspiracy theory community, and certainly the most sophisticated, sells merchandise through Amazon. You can buy its slogans on T-shirts. Choose from one emblazoned with "The Great Awakening", or "Follow the White Rabbit" or "Where We Go One, We Go All", or perhaps you'd prefer a "Red Pill" or "Breadcrumbs" design. Yours for US$20 (618 baht) apiece.

QAnon's motivations are bigger than simply selling tat. The movement is starkly political; ferociously anti-Clinton and an unabashed supporter of another modern master of the slogan, Donald Trump. He, apparently, is the man who will bring down the illuminati that cooked up the coronavirus crisis. "Draining the swamp", they call it.

The average social media crusader is probably acting in the spirit of community. They believe in the theories and feel it is their duty to spread the material supporting them. It is unrealistic to expect them to apply the same due diligence that is a legal requirement of the mass media they are so suspicious of, and whoever is creating this content will understand this. Their agenda can be furthered by stoking a climate of fear (while accusing others of doing the same), fomenting urgency, and instilling in people the contagious conviction that they are underdogs rising up against enormous powers and unseeable evils.

Whether the agenda is politics or profit, once the people willingly do someone else's bidding, it's a clear sign the propaganda is working.

Fight the power. Fight the lies. Avoid mass media. Follow the white rabbit. Accuse your enemy of what you yourself are guilty. Wake up to the insidious use of slogans, and spread the word -- preferably using slogans.

Even an old man in a chair knows this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Slarti]

 

An 'old man in a chair' pulling rabbits from his bag of 'truths'

Vernon Coleman is peddling played-out Covid-19 conspiracy theories

PUBLISHED : 27 JUN 2020 AT 04:00

NEWSPAPER SECTION: NEWS

WRITER: OLIVER FENNELL

• 500
•  
•  
•  
•  
•  
• 16

Vernon Coleman, a prolific author and doctor, is seen on a YouTube video clip.

An old man in a chair sits, legs crossed, next to a dark-wood bookcase stocked with hardbacks. He speaks of "the truth" about coronavirus and repeats many of the conspiracy theories we've heard elsewhere, but he does so calmly, reading from prepared notes, peering over half-moon spectacles.

He speaks with the structure, timbre and pace of the experienced wordsmith; indeed, Vernon Coleman is a prolific author and a former newspaper columnist. Importantly for his followers, he is also a doctor.

In latter years, major publishers have refused his work, he has resigned from newspapers whose editors disagreed with his opinions, and YouTube often deletes his videos. To his opponents, this validates the argument his material is dangerous; to his supporters, it validates the belief he is being silenced. Dr Coleman has alleged that pharmaceutical companies control Britain's National Health Service (NHS). He is anti-vaccine. He has claimed GPs are among the top three causes of death in the United Kingdom. In the 1980s, he called Aids "the hoax of the century". Now, he says the same of coronavirus.

 

His suggestion that Aids presents a minimal risk to heterosexual people (the rate of heterosexual HIV diagnoses in the US in 2018 was actually 24%, according to hiv.org) is one of the "many truths" that Dr Coleman claims to have exposed, leading to him being "banned by all mainstream media".

Now it is coronavirus which has him delving into his bag of "truths", and in doing so, taking the less imaginative approach favoured by less qualified commentators -- that of attempting to convince doubters by stating earnestly "these are the facts".

Government officials do not feel the need to specify their coronavirus briefings are "the truth". Newspaper articles are not prefaced with a qualification that what follows are "facts". But in their eagerness to convince us of their legitimacy, conspiracy theorists sprinkle these two words throughout their digital missives, so much so that the words themselves have become cliches.

Indeed, these self-proclaimed "truthers" are adept at sloganeering. Whether it is deliberate or merely a modern consequence, who knows? But their employment of a tactic that Dr Coleman criticises is just one of many contradictions.

They label the public "sheeple" and decry the "brainwashing" we have undergone, at the same time as unhesitatingly lapping up any conspiratorial crumb flicked their way. "Question everything", they insist, but then ignore us when we question them. They indignantly tell us to "Do your research", but fail to fact-check the material they share. They clamour for "freedom of speech", but kick dissenting voices out of their forums. They accuse the media of "scaremongering", and then tell us 5G is what's killing people, that our facemasks are making us sick, and that a coronavirus vaccine will implant tracking bugs in us. There is an unrelenting denouncement of "fake news" while disseminating that very thing.
 

The coronavirus crisis is labelled variously as a "plandemic" or a "scamdemic". Those who do not believe are urged to "wake up!", and material is distributed invariably with a plea to "share this with everybody before it gets taken down!".

And in that, we get a hint of their motivations. In the social media age, the share is the most quantifiable currency. It not only brings new names to the fore, it grants renewed momentum to discredited and vengeful public figures such as Judy Mikovitz, and it resurrects relics like David Icke -- and Vernon Coleman.

Don't imagine, either, that old-fashioned currency is not a motivation. The truther movement, among its higher ranks at least, is commercial. "Follow the money", we are told, to find what's really behind coronavirus. But banned videos resurface on for-profit platforms. Donations are sought for oblique "research". Public speakers charge thousands of dollars. Icke's website has a £99 (3,800 baht) paywall and a shop. And Dr Coleman's videos are rounded off with a two-minute entreaty to "ask everyone you know" to watch his channel and visit his website -- from where you can buy his books. QAnon, probably the leading conspiracy theory community, and certainly the most sophisticated, sells merchandise through Amazon. You can buy its slogans on T-shirts. Choose from one emblazoned with "The Great Awakening", or "Follow the White Rabbit" or "Where We Go One, We Go All", or perhaps you'd prefer a "Red Pill" or "Breadcrumbs" design. Yours for US$20 (618 baht) apiece.

QAnon's motivations are bigger than simply selling tat. The movement is starkly political; ferociously anti-Clinton and an unabashed supporter of another modern master of the slogan, Donald Trump. He, apparently, is the man who will bring down the illuminati that cooked up the coronavirus crisis. "Draining the swamp", they call it.

The average social media crusader is probably acting in the spirit of community. They believe in the theories and feel it is their duty to spread the material supporting them. It is unrealistic to expect them to apply the same due diligence that is a legal requirement of the mass media they are so suspicious of, and whoever is creating this content will understand this. Their agenda can be furthered by stoking a climate of fear (while accusing others of doing the same), fomenting urgency, and instilling in people the contagious conviction that they are underdogs rising up against enormous powers and unseeable evils.

Whether the agenda is politics or profit, once the people willingly do someone else's bidding, it's a clear sign the propaganda is working.

Fight the power. Fight the lies. Avoid mass media. Follow the white rabbit. Accuse your enemy of what you yourself are guilty. Wake up to the insidious use of slogans, and spread the word -- preferably using slogans.

Even an old man in a chair knows this.

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

C'mon, he said "these are the facts", so they must be. Is that not how it works? [emoji38]

[Slarti]

If you could go back in time and stop the lockdown you could then follow events up to the present day. I am pretty sure that without lockdown there would have been a much larger number of infections and, as a result, many more deaths.

There may have been, maybe even probably have been. Whether deaths from Covid have been prevented at the cost of deaths from other things is what it all really boils down to. In the end, for the big picture, it's a numbers game, nothing more.

[ALBIONSAINT]

 

George Carlin was an American comedian, actor and social critic, who had a net worth of $10 Million. George Carlin was famous for black comedy and discussing often taboo subjects like politics, religion, and psychology.

Georgie boy sure knew which side his bread was buttered. 

[oaksoft]

Do we really need to have so many threads drowning in this conspiracy theory shite?

[oaksoft]

And so it begins again.

66 covid cases (most asymptomatic) in Glasgow and the SG collectively shits their pants and re-introduces indoor restrictions.

The winter is going to be an absolute riot.

Edited September 1, 2020 by oaksoft

[BuddieinEK]

Nicola Sturgeon has announced that the new restrictions are in place for the City of Glasgow, West Dunbartonshire and East Renfrewshire after the areas saw a spike in coronavirus cases.

[Sue Denim]

3 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

And so it begins again.

66 covid cases (most asymptomatic) in Glasgow and the SG collectively shits their pants and re-introduces indoor restrictions.

The winter is going to be an absolute riot.

The “case”demic gathers pace....

The prevalence of Covid is now so low that the false positive rate of the test now means that many positive “cases” are in fact negatives.

And of those that are actually positive, most will not actually be infectious never mind symptomatic.

It was all supposed to be about “flattening the curve” so that people didn’t die as a result of the NHS being overwhelmed, Not only was the NHS never overwhelmed but less people have died in hospital during the pandemic than the 5 year average by a wide margin.

The simple way to bring the casedemic to an end is to stop testing. 

 

[Sue Denim]

On 8/30/2020 at 7:07 PM, smcc said:

If you could go back in time and stop the lockdown you could then follow events up to the present day. I am pretty sure that without lockdown there would have been a much larger number of infections and, as a result, many more deaths.

Not locking down doesn’t appear to have resulted in many more deaths in Sweden.

What we do know for sure is that lockdown itself has caused many 000s of deaths. It’s highly unlikely that the number of lives saved by lockdown (if any) has been greater than the number of deaths it’s caused.

Policy decisions have all been about Covid without taking into account the harm those policies themselves would cause.

[Sue Denim]

On 8/30/2020 at 7:07 PM, smcc said:

If you could go back in time and stop the lockdown you could then follow events up to the present day. I am pretty sure that without lockdown there would have been a much larger number of infections and, as a result, many more deaths.

U.K. and Peru locked down, Sweden and Brazil didn’t. The graphs follow seasonality and geography and not lockdown restrictions.