Coronavirus

[faraway saint]

8 hours ago, lenziebud said:

Its both

There's no question "both" have played their part in this continuing mess. 

Why are other countries allowing the public to attend outdoor events without these turning into a massive explosion in cases/deaths? 

Aye, the British disease of blaming everyone else. 

 

[shull]

 

[bazil85]

12 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Nobody will disagree with you about that.

At some point, someone will need to explain what these parents are prioritising ahead of food because I'm struggling to understand the problem. The BBC reported one woman on £1000 benefits per month but who is unable to feed her kids. Her rent is £580 which leaves £420 a month. The next priority surely is food. What is she spending £420 on if it's not food for a month for her and her two kids? I'm open to persuasion on this.

However, it's all well and good lambasting the hordes of shit parents out there who can't count the coins in their pockets or do basic budgeting but we should never use that as an excuse to punish their kids who are going hungry right now as we speak. That's the line for me.

In my opinion, the key point here for the majority of people in this bracket, is it's a struggle to feed their kids not being unable to. My understanding is most people will find a way to feed their children but the current support just isn't enough which can result in missed meals & a whole lot more hardship during school holidays. Plus a choice between heating the property and food. 

One of the most ridiculous arguments in this is "You have the money, just go without and get on with it" We live in a highly developed nation in 2020, there should be an expectation of a better quality of living than just the bare minimum to feed your family and live in a property.

This issue includes people that can't work due to disability or other health issues, addictions, financial hardship, have struggled to get work in the current climate & who's pay and contract terms shaft them compared to the work they do. They have every right to want to live not just survive. The far right "pull the ladder up Jack" outlooks are very poor.

It shouldn't even be a question of getting the government to provide far more support to these people.   

[oaksoft]

15 hours ago, Yflab said:

Sadly a twenty a day smoking habit would take care of that quite easily.
 

The last 4 years I’ve been volunteering at the local Foodbank and the numbers dependent on it increase each year. It’s quite an eye opener. There are people who are trying to work, but are on zero hours contracts. People on minimum wage who may have historic debt issues, lost their jobs/home/rent arrears, etc that they are trying to resolve or single parents who get no support from the other half. The introduction of Universal Credit just compounds the problem imho.

Sadly the foodbank service is open to abuse by a minority. I won’t go into details as it pisses me off no end that these people can take advantage of the generosity of others for their own selfish means. 

The foodbank volunteers and AdviceWorks try to help where they can, but many people are reluctant to make any changes and so the cycle continues from father to son, mother to daughter. 
 

I’ve met some wonderful people at the foodbank. 
 

I, Daniel Blake by Ken Loach is a well made movie on the subject of the benefits system, foodbanks and how unforeseen circumstances can change your life forever.

 

Unfortunately there are some people, like you say, who won't change.

Punishing their children to get at them is beyond the pale but it's incredible how many people out there believe that this is what should happen.

I was listening to LBC last night and some guy phoned in pissed off about why he should have to pay a "hidden tax" to feed the kids of these people. He thought it was the parent's job to feed them (not an unreasonable thing to say) and that it was "just tough" if they couldn't or wouldn't (what the hell??). I think the phrase "Dickensian" was used to describe that attitude and I have to agree.

[oaksoft]

15 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

16 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Nobody will disagree with you about that.
At some point, someone will need to explain what these parents are prioritising ahead of food because I'm struggling to understand the problem. The BBC reported one woman on £1000 benefits per month but who is unable to feed her kids. Her rent is £580 which leaves £420 a month. The next priority surely is food. What is she spending £420 on if it's not food for a month for her and her two kids? I'm open to persuasion on this.
However, it's all well and good lambasting the hordes of shit parents out there who can't count the coins in their pockets or do basic budgeting but we should never use that as an excuse to punish their kids who are going hungry right now as we speak. That's the line for me.

Electricity, gas and council tax.

Are they paying council tax if they're on benefits? Anyway, paying that is certainly not a priority over food.

I would be rationing some gas/electricity for food as well.

[Slarti]

16 minutes ago, Yflab said:

There are problems in our society that need to be tackled better than they are now.

There are some perfectly healthy able bodied people in our society who have never worked a day in their life and expect handouts from cradle to grave. They get help with council tax, Housing benefit, etc. When they get too frail to look after themselves they get free social care. Yet someone who has worked, paid NI, paid income tax, paid council tax, save for a pension and managed to buy their own home, have to sell it to pay for their care costs in later life. That to me is wrong. It’s an unfair system that is exploited by a minority.

If I was in charge of this country, I’d make sure that able bodied healthy unemployed people had to spend time working in their community - be that litter picking, shopping for the elderly, cleaning graffiti, cutting grass for elderly, etc. There are stacks of jobs that could be done easily with minimal outlay. It would even help to reduce everyone’s council tax.

If they chose not to participate for no other reason than being plain fcuking lazy then cut their benefit. 

I’d also consider this approach to prisoners. We should be utilising such resource to build better communities.

 

Or, have them go to a hall/community centre/other such location, sign in, sit awake for eight hours (5 days a week) with no music/tv/phone reception etc. - absolutely bored shitless and then see how much they enjoy not working.  I would have them "doing shifts" as well, especially weekend evenings and when there are major sporting events on.  I assume, maybe incorrectly, that the cost of the halls/staffing etc would be more than covered in the long term by people getting fed up having to go there and, instead, going out and getting a job or, if they refuse to also do this, having their benefits cut.

 

To me, it is wrong that anybody who works for a living, doing any job, should have essentially less take home pay than the money/benefits/freebies that people who have never worked a day in their lives (through choice) get.  If you work, even part time, you should be financially better off than if you didn't, otherwise what is the incentive for a lot of people?

[Slarti]

3 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Are they paying council tax if they're on benefits? Anyway, paying that is certainly not a priority over food.

I would be rationing some gas/electricity for food as well.

You'd eat gas and electricity?? 

[bazil85]

1 hour ago, Yflab said:

There are problems in our society that need to be tackled better than they are now.

There are some perfectly healthy able bodied people in our society who have never worked a day in their life and expect handouts from cradle to grave. They get help with council tax, Housing benefit, etc. When they get too frail to look after themselves they get free social care. Yet someone who has worked, paid NI, paid income tax, paid council tax, save for a pension and managed to buy their own home, have to sell it to pay for their care costs in later life. That to me is wrong. It’s an unfair system that is exploited by a minority.

If I was in charge of this country, I’d make sure that able bodied healthy unemployed people had to spend time working in their community - be that litter picking, shopping for the elderly, cleaning graffiti, cutting grass for elderly, etc. There are stacks of jobs that could be done easily with minimal outlay. It would even help to reduce everyone’s council tax.

If they chose not to participate for no other reason than being plain fcuking lazy then cut their benefit. 

I’d also consider this approach to prisoners. We should be utilising such resource to build better communities.

 

I don't disagree with the theory, I would err on the side of caution regarding some of the jobs you mentioned because often they are jobs people are paid to do right now (that's where the council tax savings would come in). If that labour was used as a way for people to get benefits, there is a risk of it getting exploited and the people being paid to do the jobs currently, not having the work/ paid far less. 

There is certainly an issue with what you talk about, I know a few people (generally from my schooldays) that fall into this bracket but from what I can tell, it seems like an extreme minority & there's also the concern with the children of these people. Punishing them in "cutting benefits" would often fall on hardship for the blameless children. Guess what I am saying is the solution you propose is not without its issues and there is a reason it isn't used as such an open and closed solution. 

For me, it would be more concentrating on breaking habits, incentivising education and work above living on benefits and handouts. I don't imagine it's a way of living many would choose if they had the choices provided through education and work opportunities. 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

Are they paying council tax if they're on benefits?

In Scotland while a claimant on benefits may receive Council Tax Reduction, they will still pay the full amount for water and sewerage charges. 

In Renfrewshire this is approx £300 p.a.

[faraway saint]

1 hour ago, Yflab said:

There are problems in our society that need to be tackled better than they are now.

There are some perfectly healthy able bodied people in our society who have never worked a day in their life and expect handouts from cradle to grave. They get help with council tax, Housing benefit, etc. When they get too frail to look after themselves they get free social care. Yet someone who has worked, paid NI, paid income tax, paid council tax, save for a pension and managed to buy their own home, have to sell it to pay for their care costs in later life. That to me is wrong. It’s an unfair system that is exploited by a minority.

If I was in charge of this country, I’d make sure that able bodied healthy unemployed people had to spend time working in their community - be that litter picking, shopping for the elderly, cleaning graffiti, cutting grass for elderly, etc. There are stacks of jobs that could be done easily with minimal outlay. It would even help to reduce everyone’s council tax.

If they chose not to participate for no other reason than being plain fcuking lazy then cut their benefit. 

I’d also consider this approach to prisoners. We should be utilising such resource to build better communities.

 

My dad is exactly in that bracket.

Painful and just wrong. ☹️

[Cookie Monster]

Are they paying council tax if they're on benefits? Anyway, paying that is certainly not a priority over food.
I would be rationing some gas/electricity for food as well.

By not paying the council tax that can result in imprisonment.

Then let's cut back on gas/electricity. Yeah let's freeze to death or let wet rot take hold, cannie beat a bit of fungus growing for damaging the health of children.

They could just throw another coat over the bed to keep warm. Not that anyone ever had to do that because they didn't have a duvet.[emoji2958]

Remind me this is 2020 and not 1820 [emoji848]

[bazil85]

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-herd-immunity-hopes-dashed-as-study-shows-covid-19-antibodies-fall-rapidly-after-recovery-12115510

Concerning research output regarding antibodies after Covid19 recovery.

A stark reminder on how little we still know about this virus for the people suggesting we just open up society and get on with it? 

 

 

[jaybee]

18 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

I don't think that's what I said, but Fairy Nuff, what I meant was that if the government had completed it's part of the bargain by delivering a adequate (not even "world beating" ) t&t system when the cases were low during the summer we might have avoided the second wave.

As I've said many times I'd always advocate taking the cautious approach when it came to wearing masks and re-opening the economy - mixed messages from BJ like saying the worst was over back in May, "go back to your office" in July, "Eat Out to Help Out" & re-opening schools fully both in August, student HoRs (the last two by both Holyrood & Westminster)  in September when much of the work could have been done remotely and a few others that I've criticized on here caused the second wave.

For me the bulk of the blame lies in government failures not ordinary folk "not doing the basics".

**********************

T&T can only work when you've got the numbers under control and I don't see us getting back there, so as I said it's pray for a vaccine and gammon it out.

 

Yer avin a giraffe surely, so let me get this right, in your mind one bloke got the rules wrong and everything is his fault, NOT the imbeciles who attend mass parties, gatherings, or those who ignore medical advice to wear masks, wash hands, and so on, it's all the bloke who got the rules wrong fault?

[jaybee]

18 hours ago, faraway saint said:

The economy had to be opened up and the numbers were low enough to do so.

What slowly happened people forgot that the virus was still around and when the basics are not followed it spreads, as we have seen.

What Johnson said/done was not, in itself, the problem, it's people that spread it, no matter how many times you say it isn't. 

Other countries have successfully, with some minor restrictions, opened up the economy.

We can't ignore that, I'm sure there was a considerable attendance at the F1 Grand Prix in Portugal yesterday.

 

 

God I just hate it when you are right!!!!

[shull]

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, Slarti said:

Or, have them go to a hall/community centre/other such location, sign in, sit awake for eight hours (5 days a week) with no music/tv/phone reception etc. - absolutely bored shitless and then see how much they enjoy not working.  I would have them "doing shifts" as well, especially weekend evenings and when there are major sporting events on.  I assume, maybe incorrectly, that the cost of the halls/staffing etc would be more than covered in the long term by people getting fed up having to go there and, instead, going out and getting a job or, if they refuse to also do this, having their benefits cut.

 

To me, it is wrong that anybody who works for a living, doing any job, should have essentially less take home pay than the money/benefits/freebies that people who have never worked a day in their lives (through choice) get.  If you work, even part time, you should be financially better off than if you didn't, otherwise what is the incentive for a lot of people?

They could and would just phone in sick to avoid turning up at halls etc.

Cut benefit could temp more of them to turn to petty crime and end up costing the country more.

It shouldn't happen, but it would. 

What's the answer, i don't know and i doubt anybody else really does, or it would have been done somewhere in the world. 

[bazil85]

8 minutes ago, Tommy said:

They could and would just phone in sick to avoid turning up at halls etc.

Cut benefit could temp more of them to turn to petty crime and end up costing the country more.

It shouldn't happen, but it would. 

What's the answer, i don't know and i doubt anybody else really does, or it would have been done somewhere in the world. 

Correct. No easily solution. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by bazil85

[Cookie Monster]

Even I know that's not a brain, it's a television. [emoji1]

Gawd, how stupid are folk. [emoji848]

[Slarti]

13 minutes ago, Tommy said:

They could and would just phone in sick to avoid turning up at halls etc.

Cut benefit could temp more of them to turn to petty crime and end up costing the country more.

It shouldn't happen, but it would. 

What's the answer, i don't know and i doubt anybody else really does, or it would have been done somewhere in the world. 

Nah, no phoning in sick, no self certificates, doctor's line only.

 

OK, don't cut benefit, make them do 7 days a week until they catch up with the hours they missed.  No double shifts allowed.

 

To me, the reason most of the lifetime unemployed (not talking about medical issues here, just lazy cunts) do it as they have all the time to themselves (except once a fortnight to sign on) and taking that away would be the biggest disincentive to them, not taking money.

 

I never said it was THE answer to the problem, it was just MY answer.

[bazil85]

17 minutes ago, Yflab said:

I disagree. The jobs I listed are not carried out by the council.

As an example I spend time in Elderslie doing community cleanups. Jobs that the council are more than happy to farm out to volunteers as part of their “Team up to Clean up” programme. My garage is full of council funded equipment that people are free to borrow. 

Sadly the amount of people who bother to turn up to these community events is pitiful. Thankfully we have two residents who spend a great deal of their time litter picking using tools of the trade who make a great difference to the village.

It’s a sad reflection on the society we live in that so many people dump all sorts of shit just because they can’t be bothered to take it to the dump or find a fcuking bin.

I’ve spent over 6 fcuking months asking the council to clean up three drains on Glenpatrick Road that have caused major flooding. They finally managed to program the SatNav this week to resolve the issue. So guess what I’ve done? I’ve got six more blocked drains for them in the village. I’m not holding my breath that they resolve those this year!

It’s just as well I don’t own a gun, or else I’d have a “Falling Down” moment. 
 

Maybe I've misunderstood your point here, (There are stacks of jobs that could be done easily with minimal outlay. It would even help to reduce everyone’s council tax.) I thought you meant council jobs being done in this way would cut people's council tax (because the council wouldn't be employing as many people)?  

I think if you mean community outreach instead of actual jobs, fine but again it's only ever going to be to an extent. There will be a risk that menial labour tasks you can farm out to the unemployed will impact other people's jobs. Like your suggestion of grass cutting, I don't imagine anyone will deny grass cutting contracts exist, if that's being done by the thousands of unemployed in varying areas of Scotland, where is the line drawn on people being paid to do that? 

same can be said for clean up contracts and drain maintenance. As Tommy hinted at earlier, if there was an easy fix, we would do it. 

Again I don't disagree with the concept, it's just not as straightforward as some would like to believe. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Maybe I've misunderstood your point here, (There are stacks of jobs that could be done easily with minimal outlay. It would even help to reduce everyone’s council tax.) I thought you meant council jobs being done in this way would cut people's council tax (because the council wouldn't be employing as many people)?  

I think if you mean community outreach instead of actual jobs, fine but again it's only ever going to be to an extent. There will be a risk that menial labour tasks you can farm out to the unemployed will impact other people's jobs. Like your suggestion of grass cutting, I don't imagine anyone will deny grass cutting contracts exist, if that's being done by the thousands of unemployed in varying areas of Scotland, where is the line drawn on people being paid to do that? 

same can be said for clean up contracts and drain maintenance. As Tommy hinted at earlier, if there was an easy fix, we would do it. 

Again I don't disagree with the concept, it's just not as straightforward as some would like to believe. 

Do u realise ur a fanny?

[bazil85]

3 minutes ago, God of war said:

Do u realise ur a fanny?

I wonder who this completely new BAWA member could be... 

[Bud the Baker]

1 hour ago, jaybee said:

Yer avin a giraffe surely, so let me get this right, in your mind one bloke got the rules wrong and everything is his fault, NOT the imbeciles who attend mass parties, gatherings, or those who ignore medical advice to wear masks, wash hands, and so on, it's all the bloke who got the rules wrong fault?

Nope I'm not having a 🦒 and I never said the government was entirely to blame but I still say they must bear "the bulk of the blame" for the reasons given above - is it any wonder mask wearing is not universally upheld in the country when it took the government down south over two months between easing lockdown restrictions before introducing limited & insufficient face mask rules which had to be augmented in September which in itself was another inadequate measure as he should have been prepping us for tougher Tier restrictions that he had to do a month later. 

The government down south moved into lockout too late, and when they started to come out continuously downplayed the seriousness of the situation, failed to deliver on promises and BJ personally shattered the "we're all in it together" mood of the country by supporting his favourite SPAD who had lied in print about where he spent isolation before going into the comedy business with his Barnard Castle routine.

Everyone has to look at their behaviour over this period but I maintain "the bulk of the blame" lies with the government.

**************************

It's less than a month since your fellow gammons were saying that the number of cases didn't really matter if the death rate remained low... 

Quote

Cases are obviously rising but UK deaths are at about 50-60 per day and flat-lining over the last week.

Absolutely insignificant seeing as how this second wave has already been with us for well over a month.

...the next few months are going to be scary!

[bazil85]

6 minutes ago, Yflab said:

I reckon @bazil85 works for the Council. Would explain a lot!

I don’t but I imagine I wasn’t the only one to interpret your post in the way I did 

[bazil85]

367 recoded deaths today. Highest daily total since May, very sad