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48 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:
1 hour ago, oaksoft said:
The woman that Ferguson was having an affair has a surname of Staats.
That's quite amusing.
Come on people......

The two dates in telegraph story where he's had her at his home were end of March and start of April. Seems they've been sitting on this waiting for maximum diversion impact.

Maybe, but that is Ferguson's fault for giving them that control.

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1 hour ago, TPAFKATS said:

What's your view on employer's responsibility to staff and residents under Health and safety law?

There seems to be a steady flow of stories from millionaire care home owner's blaming government (both in England and Scotland). I've not seen any follow up regarding why gov is more to blame or whether employers have been unable to source PPE. Only factor mentioned is huge price increase.

This is an absolutely valid point. From my, albeit anecdotal evidence, there are some responsible care home owners but others who would stop at nothing to cut costs, even if it means increased risk. This is likely to be part of the problem, but so could lack of government intervention and coordination to support care homes to manage infections.

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25 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I'm not so sure I'd agree with the sentiment "left to die" but it appears that they were forgotten about by the UK government. Whether that's actually true or not remains to be seen but I don't remember them talking about care homes much in the early days of this.

As for your comment about them being private companies and hence not open to innovative solutions, I just don't agree with that at all. Almost all meaningful innovation which affects our lives. that I can think of. comes from the private sector. The public sector are notoriously slow to change anything.

The care home sector seems to have been caught out on PPE shortages the same as every government in the world

BTW Is this sector not part of the remit of the Scottish government?

The Scottish Government regulate care homes through the Care Inspectorate. I think there is innovative practice with some private organisations, but more common in my experience is costs to be cut and risks taken in order to protect profit.

Edited by Hendo
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14 hours ago, Hendo said:

One of the problems is the rules don't really make any sense, which is why a lot of people are breaking them to different degrees. Sturgeon today was saying people shouldn't go to the drive thru Costa for a coffee - how exactly is that risking a spread of the virus if you don't get out your car?

The current strategy assumes risk is the same everywhere, regardless of the situation and who's involved. School is very low risk while care homes are very high risk, yet schools are shut while those in care homes have been left to die.

Since we haven't had large congregations of pupils since the virus really started hitting home, not one single person knows whether schools are low risk or not.

Pupils will not be back in school until August at the earliest.

Also, If as expected, social distancing is still in place by then, pupils will not be following a full timetable. No practical work can be carried out. Expect next year's exams to be cancelled too.

There may well be staff back a bit earlier, than the pupils.

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1 hour ago, Hendo said:

Why is saying they have been "left to die" in contempt of care workers? My point is that governments, on both sides of the border, have ignored the risks in care homes and not acted to mitigate this risk. Those who work in care homes have also been left exposed and at risk - they are just as much victims of government inaction as residents. Today's statistics show that 59% of deaths have happened in care homes. That's shameful.

The care homes situation is a grey area.

One size does not fit all, for care homes. Since care homes are mostly privately run, they should have been getting their own houses in order.

The company that my wife works for has between 20-30 homes in Scotland and her company, right at start of this, invested hugely in PPE at ten times the normal price (hence no shortages) and they were one of the first companies to isolate patients and to stop visitors.They also awarded staff an extra 25 on top of their 3% pay rise and have supported them throughout the crisis in various ways. As I'm working from home (Wednesday is a 2.45 finish :P) I've been party to many, many conversations concerning all aspects of running a care home in this situation, and the measures that have had to be put in place have been very testing for the company.

As a result, so far, there have been very few outbreaks and relatively few deaths.

The government's focus was quite rightly on the NHS, but they should certainly have had some sort of contingency plan for care homes. That's something that definitely requires to be shored up, in any future planning for pandemics.

 

 

 

 

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58 minutes ago, Hendo said:

The Scottish Government regulate care homes through the Care Inspectorate. I think there is innovative practice with some private organisations, but more common in my experience is costs to be cut and risks taken in order to protect profit.

My wife's job is to audit the care homes that her company owns, in order to ensure that they meet the standards required by the care inspectorate. They have an extremely rigorous set of criteria to be met, and there are no punches pulled. As I said earlier, I've been party to many conversations over the past few weeks and I know that the company are still trying to implement innovative strategies to ensure that they adhere to standards, whilst trying to manage situations where there have been outbreaks.

However, as you say, not all companies try to balance out profit with performance.

The care inspectorate are planning to carry out "virtual" inspections. 

Edited by FTOF
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4 hours ago, antrin said:

Funds and logistical help should have been considered and given to the Care Home sector.  The govt offered none.  Those people were a huge slab of the herd that we could “afford” to lose.

It was a callous lack of assistance.  “Left to die” was not an over simplification.

Sourcing for the private sector? Yes. But they should be made to supply and should be funding it themselves. They are still raking in the cash for looking after these people. Other industries will need to fund any extra precautionary kit so why should care homes be different?

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7 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

Sourcing for the private sector? Yes. But they should be made to supply and should be funding it themselves. They are still raking in the cash for looking after these people. Other industries will need to fund any extra precautionary kit so why should care homes be different?

It's not about the Private Sector- it's all about the vulnerable people in Care Homes. 

About people who have worked/bred families/paid taxes all their lives and are now "dumped" in holding pens until they peg out.  I don't think it was too much to ask that our/their government didn't ignore the situation they were left in.

Those people have been ignored by a Government charged with protecting all its citizens.  If Care Homes raking in  cash have not been run properly, legally safely then a Government should have ensured that they did do so.

It is why we elect people to do all the jobs that not everyone can do nor have the time to do.

 

About their failures in this, The Buffoon has now admitted to "regrets".  He's had a few...

 

He probably needs more time off.

Edited by antrin
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Guest TPAFKATS
I'm not so sure I'd agree with the sentiment "left to die" but it appears that they were forgotten about by the UK government. Whether that's actually true or not remains to be seen but I don't remember them talking about care homes much in the early days of this.
As for your comment about them being private companies and hence not open to innovative solutions, I just don't agree with that at all. Almost all meaningful innovation which affects our lives. that I can think of. comes from the private sector. The public sector are notoriously slow to change anything.
The care home sector seems to have been caught out on PPE shortages the same as every government in the world
BTW Is this sector not part of the remit of the Scottish government?
Think you might be confusing care homes with wider social care sector?

Although health and social care sits under government, care homes are mainly private other than Cooncil run ones. I think there's also some hospices with beds funded by local NHS board?

Care homes are overseen (inspected) by care inspectorate in Scotland and similar body in England.
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2 minutes ago, antrin said:

It's not about the Private Sector- it's all about the vulnerable people in Care Homes. 

About people who have worked/bred families/paid taxes all their lives and are now "dumped" in holding pens until they peg out.  I don't think it was too much to ask that our/their government didn't ignore the situation they were left in.

Those people have been ignored by a Government charged with protecting all its citizens.  If Care Homes raking in  cash have not been run properly, legally safely then a Government should have ensured that they did do so.

It is why we elect people to do all the jobs that not everyone can do nor have the time to do.

 

About their failures in this, The Buffoon has now admitted to "regrets".  He's had a few...

 

He probably needs more time off.

I am all for ensuring the staff and residents of the care homes being protected but in no way should the tax payer cover the costs of PPE for the private sector. The care homes have been raking it in for years. Their owners should be made to pay for the PPE even if it was supplied by the public sector.

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Fuxake, stlucifer!

For the good of "EVERYONE" in all walks of life, in all businesses, organisations, clubs, clumpanies, social groups, leisure activities,  heedless of them being Private or Public Sector - the government dished out new ways of working, new modes of living.

My point is - that thought and care and rules and implementation of those rules should have been a priority for the sector of society at the most obvious risk. the over 65s - many of whom are clustered together in care homes.  The government didn't even give a cursory glance in that direction.

The Government should have insisted that all precautions necessary in the NHS should have been implemented in the Care Homes Sector.   And, if that was something the Care Homes couldn't handle as most profits are extracted,  then Govt should have stepped in and done more to ensure the safety of those trapped citizens.

 

NOTHING HAPPENED.

 

I think the Ministers  and Spads responsible turned a deliberate blind eye to the herd.

Edited by antrin
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So where do we draw the line in getting the government to bail private companies out?

The amount of people who have lost jobs, will be at their wits end, leading to long term mental health issues, possibly taking their own lives.

Are the government responsible for them?

Some people, like the clown above, are just heaping blame on the government for any reason.

The care homes rake money in every moth, they have struggled to get PPE due to the world shortage.

The staff have done the best they can on difficult circumstances, many have caught this virus to their ultimate demise.

The people in these homes could pass away with a range of fairly minor illness;s, never mind this.

It's so contagious if anyone in a care home catches it the results are almost inevitable. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

Certainly seems to be a greater enthusiasm to ease lockdown conditions from Westminster/BJ than Holyrood/NS -we'll see what BJ says on Sunday.

Genuinely unaware if the legislation passed was UK wide or not and if Scotland can handle matters differently.

 

I've noticed this as well, Scotland, rightly IMO, are trying harder to quell the seemingly rising expectation things will relax soon. 

I think Scotland CAN handle things differently, we have already made several slight differences.

As I've mentioned other countries that have eased things should be watched carefully. 

Italy have seen a jump today after relaxing their lockdown, albeit still too early to say it's a direct result.

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4 hours ago, Hendo said:

Why is saying they have been "left to die" in contempt of care workers? My point is that governments, on both sides of the border, have ignored the risks in care homes and not acted to mitigate this risk. Those who work in care homes have also been left exposed and at risk - they are just as much victims of government inaction as residents. Today's statistics show that 59% of deaths have happened in care homes. That's shameful.

Can you show me where you got this figure? 

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2 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

Certainly seems to be a greater enthusiasm to ease lockdown conditions from Westminster/BJ than Holyrood/NS -we'll see what BJ says on Sunday.

Genuinely unaware if the legislation passed was UK wide or not and if Scotland can handle matters differently.

 

Todays number, 649 has us way above other countries who have relaxed their lockdowns.

The government have made mistakes but IF they make a major change from next week this could be the worst IMO.

Still way to early. :(

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1 hour ago, antrin said:

 

The Government should have insisted that all precautions necessary in the NHS should have been implemented in the Care Homes Sector.   And, if that was something the Care Homes couldn't handle as most profits are extracted,  then Govt should have stepped in and done more to ensure the safety of those trapped citizens.

 

Unfortunately, you can't equate a care home environment with the NHS and not all of the problems are down to lack of investment.

For a start a lot of staff aren't skilled enough carry out the strategies implemented in a hospital. One of the major difficulties in care homes, especially in rural areas, is attracting staff of the required quality, even if the pay is enhanced. 

Factor in the absences due to self-isolation (of which there were many) and that problem is magnified. Although of late, care homes have been able to employ volunteers from the Scottish government scheme set up a few weeks ago.

Also, a lot of care homes are re-developed old buildings, which bring problems relating to isolation and subsequent spread of disease. There's also the matter of the high number of patients with dementia, particularly those with a tendency to wander.

In short, there's no way the level of standards/precautions in the NHS could have been implemented in care homes.

That being said, some companies are obviously more invested in the care that they provide and most likely have implemented precautions to greater effect and maintained better standards than others. 

 

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The woman that Ferguson was having an affair has a surname of Staats.
That's quite amusing.
Come on people......
So if Raab, BoJos and her were pictured together would it be captioned "Lies, Damned Lies and Staats"?

[emoji846]
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Also, just thinking out loud here. 
Clearly the Government can’t prioritise everything otherwise they are are not prioritising anything. 
A lot of people on here are bemoaning what the government haven’t done to protect care homes, but I’m seeing precious few folk offering up any suggestions about what they should be doing. Like the old shitey corporate cliche goes, don’t bring me problems, bring me solutions.

Anyway, to my rather harsh sounding, devil’s advocate type contention........is it possible that IF governments have been deprioritising care homes, could that decision be being taken in the same way that a person over the age of say 70 isn’t going to be given the latest, hugely expensive cancer treatment or MS drugs? In other words prioritising the people who are the future life blood of the country. A sort of “if we can’t save everybody, who should we save first?”.
This neither represents my opinion, nor my acceptance that governments have deprioritised care homes. Just a potential reason if the have. 

 

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3 hours ago, Hendo said:

The Scottish Government regulate care homes through the Care Inspectorate. I think there is innovative practice with some private organisations, but more common in my experience is costs to be cut and risks taken in order to protect profit.

Is that not because profit margins are wafer thin at many care homes?

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2 hours ago, stlucifer said:

Sourcing for the private sector? Yes. But they should be made to supply and should be funding it themselves. They are still raking in the cash for looking after these people. Other industries will need to fund any extra precautionary kit so why should care homes be different?

Raking cash in and making a profit are nowhere near the same thing so it's very possible that many of these companies can't be left to fund things themselves.

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2 hours ago, stlucifer said:

I am all for ensuring the staff and residents of the care homes being protected but in no way should the tax payer cover the costs of PPE for the private sector. The care homes have been raking it in for years. Their owners should be made to pay for the PPE even if it was supplied by the public sector.

The problem is that you are focussing on the company and not the patients.

What you are suggesting could easily result in countless deaths.

This should be about focussing on bailing out the patients not obsessive hand wringing about whether we are bailing out private companies.

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