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Locking up the elderly until coronavirus is defeated is a cruel mockery of basic human values: Former Supreme Court judge LORD SUMPTION gives a withering critique of the Government's lockdown               By LORD SUMPTION PUBLISHED: 22:00 BST, 2 May 2020 | UPDATED: 23:13 BST, 2 May 2020      COVID-19 is not the greatest crisis in our history. It is not even the greatest public health crisis in our history. But the lockdown is without doubt the greatest interference with personal liberty in our history. It is normal at this point to add 'in peacetime'. But we can forget that. Even in wartime, we never confined the entire population to their homes, 24/7, if they did not have some excuse acceptable to a Minister. States have always tried to confine people known to be carrying dangerous infections. But we live in a new world in which, if we are ill, the State will try to cure us. From this, it is said to follow that the State can take control of our lives against our will even if we are healthy, lest we fall ill and need its services too much. Suddenly, it is our duty to save the NHS, not the other way round. It is now pointless to object to the imposition of the lockdown in the first place. It has happened. The question is how we get out of it. LORD SUMPTION: The lockdown is without doubt the greatest interference with personal liberty in our history. It is a pity that the Government did not ask itself that question when, in the blind panic following the delivery of Imperial College London's Professor Neil Ferguson's statistical projections, it legislated the lockdown on the hoof in a late-night press conference.They now find themselves trapped by their own decisions. Ministers have formulated five tests to be satisfied before the lockdown is lifted. What is wrong with these tests is that they are all about health and only about health. The Government has formulated them in their own interest. They think that this will allow them to avoid criticism by sheltering behind the scientists. But that is just an evasion of political responsibility. Of course it is understandable that politicians should want to shelter themselves from criticism. But there is no reason why the rest of us should help them do it. Ending the lockdown is a political decision, not a scientific one. It boils down to a single question. Is it worth it? That depends only partly on the science. There are also moral judgments, constitutional values and economic consequences involved. But since the Government likes its tests to come in fives, here is a five-part test which tries to address the real issues. What kind of relationship do we want with the State? First, the medical issue. I am not going to argue about Professor Ferguson's projections. They have caused some discomfort among reputable professionals. They are based on some rather arbitrary assumptions. And they leave out of the account important considerations, such as the adverse health consequences of the lockdown itself or the number of people who would have died anyway from underlying clinical conditions even without Covid-19, maybe a few months later. But let us take it as a given, since it is probably true, that the lockdown will save a significant number of lives,albeit fewer than Professor Ferguson projects. Second, we need to ask how many deaths we are prepared to accept in order to preserve other things that we value. However valuable 'saving lives' may be, it is not the only valuable thing. Some comparison is therefore unavoidable between the lives we gain and the other things we loseby a lockdown. To say that life is priceless and nothing else counts is just empty rhetoric. People say it because it is emotionally comfortable and avoids awkward dilemmas. But they don't actually believe it. We went to war in 1939 because lives were worth losing for liberty. We allow cars on the roads because lives are worth losing for convenience. We travel by air although pollution kills. We tut-tutabout it, but we willingly do it .Third question. What sort of life do we think we are protecting? There is more to life than the avoidance of death. Life is a drink with friends. Life is a crowded football match or a live concert. Life is a family celebration with children and grandchildren. Life is companionship, an arm around one's back, laughter or tears shared at less than two metres. These things are not just optional extras. They are life itself. They are fundamental to our humanity, to our existence as social beings. Of course death is permanent, whereas joy may be temporarily suspended. But the force of that point depends on how temporary it really is.Viruses don't just go away. This one will never disappear unless and until there is enough exposure to it to produce collective immunity or an effective vaccine appears.Talk of compulsorily 'shielding' (in plain English locking up) the old and vulnerable until one of those things happens is a cruel mockery of basic human values.Fourth, there is the money question. People decry attempts to measure the mortality of Covid-19 against the economic cost of reducing it. But this too is rhetoric, and hypocritical rhetoric at that. Ending the lockdown is a political decision, not a scientific one. Money is not just for plutocrats. You and I and the editor of The Guardian and the driver of the No 9 bus and the Archbishop of Canterbury and the cashier at the supermarket all value and depend on money. Not just in the sense that it pays our wages or pensions. Hundreds of thousands of businesses are going under. Millions are moving from jobs to universal credit. A thriving economy, of the kind that we are now throwing away, is the source of our security and the foundation of our children's future. We would do well not to sneer at it. Poverty kills too. And when it does not kill, it maims, mentally, physically and socially .
 
Edited by theknickerwetter

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4 hours ago, antrin said:

Great questions.

 

It was just another random expert in the Financial Times.

I think the FT just asks any old grunt in the street what they think then they publish shite. 

 

 

Sounds about right 🙂

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10 hours ago, antrin said:

And this evening’s C4 news at 7.00pm had a big chunk about those same new cases/deaths.

who makes it all up, eh?

. .. . .well if it's on Channel 4 news  it must be true , right ? Otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to say it , right?

Did you know that on average , 17% of people in this country believe what they read in a newspaper , 17%.

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9 minutes ago, theknickerwetter said:

. .. . .well if it's on Channel 4 news  it must be true , right ? Otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to say it , right?

Did you know that on average , 17% of people in this country believe what they read in a newspaper , 17%.

So who to invest more faith in...?

A sporadic poster using a nom de plume on an obscure Scottish fitba website 

or

the FT and C4?
 

tricky call.

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17 hours ago, oaksoft said:

I think we are looking at the next Prime Minister in the current Chancellor.

Extending the furlough AND maintaining the 80% is going to be a huge boost for business and employees.

He's right to hold the reduction to 60% until some release of the lockdown has happened.

I really can't see him defecting to the labour party.

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Accountancy giant put in charge of PPE procurement accused of failings.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/useless-deloitte-accused-of-ppe-failings-amid-covid-19-deal-secrecy/

Was it deliotte who investigated and cleared SPFL over last months voting fiasco?

The rangers will be preparing a statement

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1 hour ago, TPAFKATS said:

Accountancy giant put in charge of PPE procurement accused of failings.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/useless-deloitte-accused-of-ppe-failings-amid-covid-19-deal-secrecy/

Was it deliotte who investigated and cleared SPFL over last months voting fiasco?

The rangers will be preparing a statement

https://www.consultancy.uk/news/24472/deloitte-criticised-for-covid-19-testing-role

 

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38 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Sainsbury's, bless them, have just advertised they are giving NHS workers a special time slot.

The NHS workers better be flippin quick, 7:30am - 8:00am. :rolleyes:

They better not turn up in pairs since the store is only allowing 1 person per trolley in.

They stopped me and the wife going in last week even though she was in crutches and unable to carry a basket or push a trolley,

We were after baby stuff so me going in myself wasn't an option since she was having the final decision on what to buy.

No big deal since we just went elsewhere but some other people certainly wasn't happy about the rule. 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Tommy said:

They better not turn up in pairs since the store is only allowing 1 person per trolley in.

They stopped me and the wife going in last week even though she was in crutches and unable to carry a basket or push a trolley,

We were after baby stuff so me going in myself wasn't an option since she was having the final decision on what to buy.

No big deal since we just went elsewhere but some other people certainly wasn't happy about the rule. 

 

 

In your circumstances they should have shown some common sense.

As for the "one person" per trolley rule, I'm 100% behind it as it simply reduces the risk of spreading any infection.

We have some wallopers who take a trolley each and go in a 2 separate people.

You will always get a percentage of people who will act like arseholes no matter what. 

 

 

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@theknickerwetter

Gotta love a septuagenarian free marketeer, friend of Keith Joseph & Margret Thatcher suddenly developing a concern for the driver of the No 9 bus and the cashier at the supermarket. Poverty kills too but very likely Lord ConSumption won't know any of the low paid workers he's so keen to force back to work.

After all as Lord ConSumption says current policy is based on projections that leave out of the account important considerations like the number of people who would have died anyway from underlying clinical conditions even without Covid-19 maybe a few months later - all heart! 

*****************

Boris Johnson's message to the working class: good luck out there

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/12/boris-johnson-working-class-good-luck

An alliance of Tory libertarians, who believe in freedom for those can afford it, and wealthy Conservative backers, who are rather more interested in profit margins than the lives of vulnerable and older people, have grown tired of lockdown, quite unlike the public as a whole. And so Johnson’s messy compromise, as mentioned in his Sunday night address to the nation, is to “actively encourage” a return to work for those who cannot do so from home: factory workers, but not managers; cleaners, but not accountants.

*****************

Covid-19 is a class issue and I applaud you for raising the issue! :happyclapper

 

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

@theknickerwetter

Gotta love a septuagenarian free marketeer, friend of Keith Joseph & Margret Thatcher suddenly developing a concern for the driver of the No 9 bus and the cashier at the supermarket. Poverty kills too but very likely Lord ConSumption won't know any of the low paid workers he's so keen to force back to work.

After all as Lord ConSumption says current policy is based on projections that leave out of the account important considerations like the number of people who would have died anyway from underlying clinical conditions even without Covid-19 maybe a few months later - all heart! 

*****************

Boris Johnson's message to the working class: good luck out there

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/12/boris-johnson-working-class-good-luck

An alliance of Tory libertarians, who believe in freedom for those can afford it, and wealthy Conservative backers, who are rather more interested in profit margins than the lives of vulnerable and older people, have grown tired of lockdown, quite unlike the public as a whole. And so Johnson’s messy compromise, as mentioned in his Sunday night address to the nation, is to “actively encourage” a return to work for those who cannot do so from home: factory workers, but not managers; cleaners, but not accountants.

*****************

Covid-19 is a class issue and I applaud you for raising the issue! :happyclapper

 

I know 3 managers who have not even been off when most of the workforce were, although with some orders approx 60% of the workforce are back at work.

I also know 2 accountants that have been doing around half and half working from home and working in the office, quite often outside normal working hours to reduce contact with others.

The media don't half print some shit........................although there are plenty willing to believe anything. 

Scotland will follow suit in the next few weeks IMO. 

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16 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

I know 3 managers who have not even been off when most of the workforce were, although with some orders approx 60% of the workforce are back at work.

I also know 2 accountants that have been doing around half and half working from home and working in the office, quite often outside normal working hours to reduce contact with others.

The media don't half print some shit........................although there are plenty willing to believe anything. 

Scotland will follow suit in the next few weeks IMO. 

Are these accountants/managers not "friends" like the one in the NHS, I'm not disputing the evidence between class & Covid deaths is still anecdotal although very few members of the House of Lords will be putting in shifts at care homes but when the hard stats on the issue are available it'll will undoubtedly endorse my opinion - this pandemic is and always has been a political issue.

Edited by Bud the Baker

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18 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Are these accountants/managers not "friends" like the one in the NHS, I'm not disputing the evidence between class & Covid deaths is still anecdotal although very few members of the House of Lords will be putting in shifts at care homes but when the hard stats on the issue are available it'll will undoubtedly endorse my opinion - this pandemic is and always has been a political issue.

:snore

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45 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

@theknickerwetter

Gotta love a septuagenarian free marketeer, friend of Keith Joseph & Margret Thatcher suddenly developing a concern for the driver of the No 9 bus and the cashier at the supermarket. Poverty kills too but very likely Lord ConSumption won't know any of the low paid workers he's so keen to force back to work.

After all as Lord ConSumption says current policy is based on projections that leave out of the account important considerations like the number of people who would have died anyway from underlying clinical conditions even without Covid-19 maybe a few months later - all heart! 

*****************

Boris Johnson's message to the working class: good luck out there

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/12/boris-johnson-working-class-good-luck

An alliance of Tory libertarians, who believe in freedom for those can afford it, and wealthy Conservative backers, who are rather more interested in profit margins than the lives of vulnerable and older people, have grown tired of lockdown, quite unlike the public as a whole. And so Johnson’s messy compromise, as mentioned in his Sunday night address to the nation, is to “actively encourage” a return to work for those who cannot do so from home: factory workers, but not managers; cleaners, but not accountants.

*****************

Covid-19 is a class issue and I applaud you for raising the issue! :happyclapper

 

 

 

 

 

What really got me about The Buffoon exhorting "a section" of workers back to work, in order to Get Britain Working again, was that The Buffoon famously has avoided work whenever he could. 

He is a legend in the annals of "winging it", not reading his brief, not knowing detail, lacking concentration...  not working...

He has a record for (not) attending COBRA meetings, especially when the country is facing a pandemic... not working...

He happily went off on holiday as the pandemic struck and left inadequate Ministers to cover for him....   not working...

No sooner was he back from holiday than he went off on Parental Leave.... not working...

He has fathered a flotsam of children in a miscellany of marriages/relationships which all foundered for reasons we can only guess at... as in.... a personal commitment to... not working...

Don't do as I do, do as I say...

Buffoon!

 

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17 minutes ago, antrin said:

What really got me about The Buffoon exhorting "a section" of workers back to work, in order to Get Britain Working again, was that The Buffoon famously has avoided work whenever he could. 

He is a legend in the annals of "winging it", not reading his brief, not knowing detail, lacking concentration...  not working...

He has a record for (not) attending COBRA meetings, especially when the country is facing a pandemic... not working...

He happily went off on holiday as the pandemic struck and left inadequate Ministers to cover for him....   not working...

No sooner was he back from holiday than he went off on Parental Leave.... not working...

He has fathered a flotsam of children in a miscellany of marriages/relationships which all foundered for reasons we can only guess at... as in.... a personal commitment to... not working...

Don't do as I do, do as I say...

Buffoon!

 

 

13 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

^^^^^^ :lol:

So, I'm not wrong, then?  Thank you.

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13 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Sturgeon now starting to get the same level of questions that have been aimed at the UK government.

Hindsight. 

Just wait till she tells the public to go back to work. :rolleyes:

At least Scotland isn’t the Guinea pig for a change 👍🏻

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8 hours ago, antrin said:

So who to invest more faith in...?

A sporadic poster using a nom de plume on an obscure Scottish fitba website 

or

the FT and C4?
 

tricky call.

aye , its a tightrope Spud , it's a f**king tightrope.

 

I asked a couple of pertinent questions , l did not ask you to have 'faith in ' anything .

I take it from your remarks that you have no faith in your own judgement and instead you have surrendered your ability to evaluate data to C4 and FT . Good luck with that one.

Granted it was once a country of free speech and debate

 

Sporadic , lol. Ah if only i had a massive post count , ahhhhhhh..................................

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