Coronavirus

[Sue Denim]

33 minutes ago, antrin said:

I also had doubts about what TPAFKATS' numbers..

I didn't respond as I would suggest that statistics can be - and are - drawn from a vast variety of sources on this subject that can be made to look convincing from any pov.

Not worth getting arsed about, interested in or dispute with.

The excess deaths stats can only be drawn from the ONS and NRS

These stats are available to anyone and doing your own calcs is easy and quick

@TPAFKATS wasn’t spinning these stats. He was spinning false and made up stats that he’d read somewhere on a nationalist website and taken as fact.

It says all you need to know about him.

 

 

[bazil85]

4 minutes ago, Sue Denim said:

When even the Guardian is putting our articles criticising the lockdown disaster then it shows how far behind the curve baz is

Its killed tens of thousands, will kill millions more, has wrecked the economy and saved no-one.

How anyone reckons it was the right call is beyond me

More people have died as a result of Covid than as a direct result of the lock-down. Your claim is just complete rubbish. I know you struggle with cherry-picking data so here's an animated graph to highlight the severity of this disease and why we have to take precautions like lockdown. 

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/animated-chart-of-the-day-top-10-global-causes-of-deaths-in-2020/

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I also had doubts about what TPAFKATS' numbers..
I didn't respond as I would suggest that statistics can be - and are - drawn from a vast variety of sources on this subject that can be made to look convincing from any pov.
Not worth getting arsed about, interested in or dispute with.

Yes figures can be spun.
Andy always spins his figures, not sure why he's focusing on 5 years past. Actually I do, he's spinning to find something that suits his agenda.

Its pretty simple for me, compare excess numbers now across the 4 countries.

Also, UK Gov figures for England are way behind ONS figures.
Other 3 governments are same or similar.

[Sue Denim]

"The ONS rates are people who got covid on their death certificate... it doesn't necessarily mean they were infected, because many of them haven't been tested"

- Sir Patrick Vallance

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Antrin is right, figures can be spun in a variety of different ways to fit an agenda. Here's a good website with a lot of detail on excessive death rates. It compares European countries and the home nations. https://voxeu.org/article/excess-mortality-england-european-outlier-covid-19-pandemic it's a wee bit dated now given how quickly the situation evolves. 
For me the overarching issue in this back and forward is we have excessive mortality rates linked to Covid 19. It clearly shows the lockdown was the right call and restrictions must remain in place withe a cautious approach to relaxing them. A pi**ing contest wont change that. 

Here's how you spin figures and headlines in the obe article.
Yesterday's Sunday Times Scotland talking about how bad Scotland's death rate is, while acknowledging that it isn't as bad as UK average.

[Sue Denim]

8 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

Yes figures can be spun.
Andy always spins his figures, not sure why he's focusing on 5 years past. Actually I do, he's spinning to find something that suits his agenda.

Its pretty simple for me, compare excess numbers now across the 4 countries.

Also, UK Gov figures for England are way behind ONS figures.
Other 3 governments are same or similar.

Oh dear, the hole just keeps getting bigger

Focusing on past years because that’s what the ONS uses when calculating excess deaths

Show us these excess numbers that you are referring to across the 4 nations. Just for a laugh. 😂

I’ve given the official figures from the ONS and NRS and you’ve been well and truly caught lying.

And your last paragraph makes no sense.

Im cringing for you now 

[Sue Denim]

3 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

Here's how you spin figures and headlines in the obe article.
Yesterday's Sunday Times Scotland talking about how bad Scotland's death rate is, while acknowledging that it isn't as bad as UK average.

Stop defecting from your stupidity and your lies

You said that England’s excess death rate was 5 times higher than Scotland’s.

That’s a total lie

And you then when on to question why I mentioned looking at 3 years past, giving away the fact that you don’t even know how excess deaths are calculated

You’ve totally embarrassed yourself 😂😂😂

Edited June 1, 2020 by Sue Denim

[Sue Denim]

The stupidly and lies from @TPAFKATS have been well and truly exposed now

The digging and wriggling will continue though, adding to the hilarity 😂

Edited June 1, 2020 by Sue Denim

[bazil85]

2 minutes ago, Sue Denim said:

Oh dear, the hole just keeps getting bigger

Focusing on past years because that’s what the ONS uses when calculating excess deaths

Show us these excess numbers that you are referring to across the 4 nations. Just for a laugh. 😂

I’ve given the official figures from the ONS and NRS and you’ve been well and truly caught lying.

And your last paragraph makes no sense.

Im cringing for you now 

Did you share excessive death figures not related to Covid19 showing the lock-down has killed more? I must have missed it. 

There's also got to be serious questions raised over excessive deaths that aren't linked. In English care homes as an example, they were reporting excessive deaths of around 10,000 not attributed to Covid19, that's about 125% above year on year averages. That seems extremely unlikely. What other reasons are people in care homes dying in such excessive numbers from?  

[faraway saint]

1 minute ago, bazil85 said:

Did you share excessive death figures not related to Covid19 showing the lock-down has killed more? I must have missed it. 

There's also got to be serious questions raised over excessive deaths that aren't linked. In English care homes as an example, they were reporting excessive deaths of around 10,000 not attributed to Covid19, that's about 125% above year on year averages. That seems extremely unlikely. What other reasons are people in care homes dying in such excessive numbers from?  

Old age?

[bazil85]

2 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Old age?

Is that a new thing that's contributed to a 120% average increase in care homes? 

[faraway saint]

1 minute ago, bazil85 said:

Is that a new thing that's contributed to a 120% average increase in care homes? 

I don't know, do you?

Maybe there's other things old people die of, I'd imagine there's lots. 

[bazil85]

Just now, faraway saint said:

I don't know, do you?

Maybe there's other things old people die of, I'd imagine there's lots. 

I'm sure you're right.

I also think it would be naive to think such a massive and consistent increase in many parts of England at a time of a global pandemic, while their reported Covid19 related excessive deaths in care homes is tracking substantially under the other home nations, is just a coincidence.

Would you agree? 

[Sue Denim]

7 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Did you share excessive death figures not related to Covid19 showing the lock-down has killed more? I must have missed it. 

There's also got to be serious questions raised over excessive deaths that aren't linked. In English care homes as an example, they were reporting excessive deaths of around 10,000 not attributed to Covid19, that's about 125% above year on year averages. That seems extremely unlikely. What other reasons are people in care homes dying in such excessive numbers from?  

I have shared non Covid excess deaths before but not recently. If I can be bothered, I’ll get the ONS stats for you tomorrow. In the garden sunbathing now 😎

What needs to be remembered is that deaths in the community or care homes don’t require a positive test. Covid can appear on the death certificate even if it’s just suspected and on the say so of the care home manager.

Care home residents on hospitals before the crisis were thrown out of hospitals and back into care homes to make way for the expected overwhelming of the NHS that never happened. Some had Covid and care homes were forced to take them back, even though they hadn’t been tested.

Care home residents have not been able to get access to GPS or hospitals during the crisis. Is it any wonder so many have died?

And many people have died at home too scared to call for help.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Stop defecting from your stupidity and your lies
You said that England’s excess death rate was 5 times higher than Scotland’s.
That’s a total lie
And you then when on to question why I mentioned looking at 3 years past, giving away the fact that you don’t even know how excess deaths are calculated
You’ve totally embarrassed yourself [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

I said it was almost 3 times higher you utter f**ktrumpet.
Are you totally incapable of telling the truth about anything on here?

[Sue Denim]

3 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

I said it was almost 3 times higher you utter f**ktrumpet.
Are you totally incapable of telling the truth about anything on here?

Deary me. I’m just cringing for you.

England’s death rate has been less than 20% higher than Scotland’s.
 

In what way does the inclusion of the word “almost” mitigate your lies and stupidity? 😃

You’re embarrassing yourself with each wriggle you make

Please keep it up though. It’s funny. 😂😂😃

Edited June 1, 2020 by Sue Denim

[Sue Denim]

Clearly, the best policy for @TPAFKATS would have been to either own up to his mistake or just ignore his mistake altogether

But to keep digging like this actually highlights that the guy is very very stupid and he clearly doesn’t understand what he’s talking about

I’ve wasted enough time on the imbecile. He’ll make more posts confirming his stupidity I’m sure. I’ll let the forum enjoy it. 😂😂😃

[bazil85]

Just now, Sue Denim said:

I have shared non Covid excess deaths before but not recently. If I can be bothered, I’ll get the ONS stats for you tomorrow. In the garden sunbathing now 😎

What needs to be remembered is that deaths in the community or care homes don’t require a positive test. Covid can appear on the death certificate even if it’s just suspected and on the say so of the care home manager.

Care home residents on hospitals before the crisis were thrown out of hospitals and back into care homes to make way for the expected overwhelming of the NHS that never happened. Some had Covid and care homes were forced to take them back, even though they hadn’t been tested.

Care home residents have not been able to get access to GPS or hospitals during the crisis. Is it any wonder so many have died?

And many people have died at home too scared to call for help.

You're really contradicting yourself here. You've been campaigning for no lockdown pretty much from the very start of this. Surely the same people would have died in their care homes anyway if the country had followed your guidance and not locked down, do you genuinely think hospitals would have had more space if we didn't practice lockdown measures? Plus a shed-load more sick people given the R number factually increases the more contact people have with each other. 

Don't bother about getting the data from the ONS, this ONS graph pretty much blows your theory out the water. I'm also aware Covid19 isn't always a contributing factor and people would often die anyway, this graph still shows the major issue with Covid19 in excess deaths. I also don't hold such right wing views that those people don't matter. Hasting death to benefit the economy is not something I support. 

 

[Sue Denim]

 

Coronavirus: More than two million in UK waiting for cancer care https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52876999

[Sue Denim]

38 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

You're really contradicting yourself here. You've been campaigning for no lockdown pretty much from the very start of this. Surely the same people would have died in their care homes anyway if the country had followed your guidance and not locked down, do you genuinely think hospitals would have had more space if we didn't practice lockdown measures? Plus a shed-load more sick people given the R number factually increases the more contact people have with each other. 

Don't bother about getting the data from the ONS, this ONS graph pretty much blows your theory out the water. I'm also aware Covid19 isn't always a contributing factor and people would often die anyway, this graph still shows the major issue with Covid19 in excess deaths. I also don't hold such right wing views that those people don't matter. Hasting death to benefit the economy is not something I support. 

 

Baz, you’re all over the place with that post.

So much so that I wouldn’t even know where to start

Indeed, if I were to remove the contradictions, irrelevancy and errors there’d be pretty much nothing left

I have no intention in getting involved in a long drawn out exchange with you 

[Sue Denim]

For you @bazil85

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-world-panicked-with-ineffective-lockdowns

[bazil85]

28 minutes ago, Sue Denim said:

Baz, you’re all over the place with that post.

So much so that I wouldn’t even know where to start

Indeed, if I were to remove the contradictions, irrelevancy and errors there’d be pretty much nothing left

I have no intention in getting involved in a long drawn out exchange with you 

It is challenging to respond to you when you completely contradicted yourself, the post aimed to address your contradictions which in itself isn’t easy because you have to second guess your actual view  

- criticising the care home approach 

- you yourself having a view it shouldn’t have been an issue anyway because we shouldn’t have locked down. 

I then introduced the graph as a way of saving you the bother of going any further with a claim lockdown has caused more deaths than Covid19. The source of the graph is where you claim to have pulled your own data & shows you’re wrong. 
 

As for the story you shared, it’s just someone’s view pulled from various bias & irrelevant points. It’s been shown beyond doubt we couldn’t have mirrored Sweden & gotten the same results due to population density, multi-generation households & single occupancy households.
 

And yes it might very well be the case that flattening the curve is a way to spread out this impact. This was necessary through lockdown so to not overwhelm the NHS. They had to greatly expand the hospital beds available to address a potential rapid increase in patients. It’s near clinically insane to think no lockdown would not have pushed the number of sick people over capacity. 
 

You thinking that chap is right & the many experts that are telling countries to keep locked down/ gradually lift to stop a second wave are wrong only highlights your bias that has been proven to be wrong time & time again throughout this. Do you really think if lockdown had been proven ineffective the U.K. right wing government wouldn’t remove it instantly in England to get the economy back in motion? It’s fairytale stuff. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by bazil85

[Sue Denim]

2019/2020 v 2017/18

week by week and cumulative 

Spot the difference....

 

 

[bazil85]

6 minutes ago, Sue Denim said:

2019/2020 v 2017/18

week by week and cumulative 

Spot the difference....

 

 

Isolate the period where Covid19 hit the USA bad & you’ll see the difference. Anything before is irrelevant because naturally death rates will be impacted by different things. 

[oaksoft]

3 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:

Yes figures can be spun.
Andy always spins his figures, not sure why he's focusing on 5 years past. Actually I do, he's spinning to find something that suits his agenda.

Its pretty simple for me, compare excess numbers now across the 4 countries.

Also, UK Gov figures for England are way behind ONS figures.
Other 3 governments are same or similar.

This is what happens when you don't post your sources and tell people to use Google. Andy might be a dick but at least he is saying where his info is coming from.