Coronavirus

[bazil85]

2 minutes ago, Slarti said:

You're wasting your time.

Missing me ^^^ 

[shull]

From this Friday the Fascists in Wales are jailing their people within their homes for two weeks.

What are they going to do after two weeks ?

We will still be in the flu season which will probably last till late Spring.

So major lockdown till then ?

Feck the Fascists.

Open up the United Kingdom.

[stlucifer]

18 hours ago, bazil85 said:

How do you explain excessive deaths in 2020 being so high if not Covid19? 

Many more people are dying at home. While this quote is relating to England and Wales,, it's likely reflected in Scotland.

"Figures for England and Wales show that since March around 26,000 more people than usual have died at home.

Most of these deaths were not related to Covid-19.

Instead, they were caused by heart disease, lung cancer, dementia and other conditions".

And it could be disputed that many hospital deaths are also non covid related.

[oaksoft]

2 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

Many more people are dying at home. While this quote is relating to England and Wales,, it's likely reflected in Scotland.

"Figures for England and Wales show that since March around 26,000 more people than usual have died at home.

Most of these deaths were not related to Covid-19.

Instead, they were caused by heart disease, lung cancer, dementia and other conditions".

And it could be disputed that many hospital deaths are also non covid related.

And to pre-empt Bazil's response, the reason these are excess deaths and not people who would have died in hospital anyway is because there is a reticence on the part of many ill people not to "trouble" the NHS at a time when they wrongly believe the NHS is swamped by covid cases.

In other words, these are people who would have sought and received treatment for their conditions and would likely have survived.

[stlucifer]

1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

And to pre-empt Bazil's response, the reason these are excess deaths and not people who would have died in hospital anyway is because there is a reticence on the part of many ill people not to "trouble" the NHS at a time when they wrongly believe the NHS is swamped by covid cases.

In other words, these are people who would have sought and received treatment for their conditions and would likely have survived.

Not forgetting that there will be even more who have wrongly been added to the covid numbers simply because they had the virus within the last 28 days but didn't die FROM it.

[bazil85]

1 minute ago, stlucifer said:

Many more people are dying at home. While this quote is relating to England and Wales,, it's likely reflected in Scotland.

"Figures for England and Wales show that since March around 26,000 more people than usual have died at home.

Most of these deaths were not related to Covid-19.

Instead, they were caused by heart disease, lung cancer, dementia and other conditions".

And it could be disputed that many hospital deaths are also non covid related.

Red herring. The 26,000 people is excessive regarding at home deaths, of course that number is going to go up during a national lockdown where people with varying health problems are actively being cared for in a number of different ways outside of hospitals including at home care.

"Experts are not sure whether the statistics are necessarily bad – many people choose to die at home rather than in hospital"

The below graph is probably a better way to look at it for the year. Excessive deaths are very high earlier this year, Covid19 being mentioned is also very high, it's still not likely that relatively speaking a large portion of the population have actually had Covid19. What does that tell us? That excessive deaths in 2020 are not coincidental and they are not because people have been told to stay at home. If that was the case, the excessive deaths without Covid19 mentioned would be far higher March - May.

[bazil85]

4 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

And to pre-empt Bazil's response, the reason these are excess deaths and not people who would have died in hospital anyway is because there is a reticence on the part of many ill people not to "trouble" the NHS at a time when they wrongly believe the NHS is swamped by covid cases.

In other words, these are people who would have sought and received treatment for their conditions and would likely have survived.

Likely in a minority of situations but such a sweeping statement is utter unfounded nonsense. If that was the case for the majority of these people, the excessive deaths for non Covid19 reasons would be far higher than Covid19 excessive deaths. 

It seems like you've forgotten your (apparent) own point. there was no fix all solution where everyone survived. At the height of the first wave excessive deaths with Covid19 as a factor outweighed other excessive deaths almost three folds. Covid19 was the main reason the world was on fire earlier this year, difficult decisions had to be made.

You'd think given you were the first person ever to notice this and kindly told the forum about it, you'd understand. 

 

[oaksoft]

4 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

Not forgetting that there will be even more who have wrongly been added to the covid numbers simply because they had the virus within the last 28 days but didn't die FROM it.

Sadly, you are wasting your time.

Bazil will simply label any of your data "irrelevant" and produce his own which "proves his point".

[stlucifer]

1 minute ago, bazil85 said:

Red herring. The 26,000 people is excessive regarding at home deaths, of course that number is going to go up during a national lockdown where people with varying health problems are actively being cared for in a number of different ways outside of hospitals including at home care.

"Experts are not sure whether the statistics are necessarily bad – many people choose to die at home rather than in hospital"

The below graph is probably a better way to look at it for the year. Excessive deaths are very high earlier this year, Covid19 being mentioned is also very high, it's still not likely that relatively speaking a large portion of the population have actually had Covid19. What does that tell us? That excessive deaths in 2020 are not coincidental and they are not because people have been told to stay at home. If that was the case, the excessive deaths without Covid19 mentioned would be far higher March - May.

You blow your own argument out of the water when you correctly say, "covid mentioned". With the number actually contracting it, it's surely likely that many people dying due to not being treated for what actually is deadly to them will be found to have had covid. No one is suggesting covid is harmless to all but we need to get some real facts. Not a bar chart created to prove what the author wants to be true.

[bazil85]

5 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

Not forgetting that there will be even more who have wrongly been added to the covid numbers simply because they had the virus within the last 28 days but didn't die FROM it.

Again works both ways, there's every chance Covid19 was missed from death certificates as a factor in home deaths earlier this year. You can't assert one way to fit your agenda and ignore the other. 

[oaksoft]

Qu'elle surprise - as our French friends would say.  

[bazil85]

Just now, stlucifer said:

You blow your own argument out of the water when you correctly say, "covid mentioned". With the number actually contracting it, it's surely likely that many people dying due to not being treated for what actually is deadly to them will be found to have had covid. No one is suggesting covid is harmless to all but we need to get some real facts. Not a bar chart created to prove what the author wants to be true.

If it was only a case of Covid mentioned and the deaths were largely coincidental, we would not be seeing as many as 8,250 excessive deaths a week bound to it. It is beyond reasonable doubt that Covid19 hastened many people to their death earlier this year. 

That bar chart was created based on literal data over the whole of the UK from many different medical practitioners, it isn't just plucked out of the air. 

[bazil85]

3 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Qu'elle surprise - as our French friends would say.  

You got out on front of this because it seems at least in part you agree with me. I suppose when the facts presented are so overwhelming, how could you not? 

You still had to get in that wee extra, rather silly bit about all those people likely surviving but hey, that's just the Oak spin from my experience. 

[stlucifer]

2 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

If it was only a case of Covid mentioned and the deaths were largely coincidental, we would not be seeing as many as 8,250 excessive deaths a week bound to it. It is beyond reasonable doubt that Covid19 hastened many people to their death earlier this year. 

That bar chart was created based on literal data over the whole of the UK from many different medical practitioners, it isn't just plucked out of the air. 

Is it? Or is the cause due to how the governments reacted to the virus?

And the bar chart is made up from the figures of those who had covid inside the 28 day margin. NOT those who died FROM it.

Edited October 19, 2020 by stlucifer

[bazil85]

Just now, stlucifer said:

Is it? Or is the cause due to how the governments reacted to the virus?

It is, how else are you explaining the overwhelming majority of excessive cases with Covid19 labelled? What else was killing these people if it wasn't the virus?  

I would love to know if Oak (or Slarti for that matter) actually agrees with you on this. I have a funny feeling he doesn't but would hate to go on record agreeing with me on a point... 

He's a curious character, cries and moans when someone else argues their point, something he's done relentlessly for over a decade. 🤷‍♂️

[stlucifer]

9 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

It is, how else are you explaining the overwhelming majority of excessive cases with Covid19 labelled? What else was killing these people if it wasn't the virus?  

I would love to know if Oak (or Slarti for that matter) actually agrees with you on this. I have a funny feeling he doesn't but would hate to go on record agreeing with me on a point... 

He's a curious character, cries and moans when someone else argues their point, something he's done relentlessly for over a decade. 🤷‍♂️

Again you say, Covid19 related. I actually agree with you that is the case. I notice you haven't said Died OF Covid19. I'm not for one minute suggesting that there were deaths due to the virus. That is certain and means there would be more people dying. I'm saying not ALL the excessive deaths were due to it. I'm saying the figures are skewed by the manner in which they are described.

[shull]

Firebreak 

[bazil85]

1 minute ago, stlucifer said:

Again you say, Covid19 related. I actually agree with you that is the case. I notice you haven't said Died OF Covid19. I'm not for one minute suggesting that there were deaths due to the virus. That is certain and means there would be more people dying. I'm saying not ALL the excessive deaths were due to it. I'm saying the figures are skewed by the manner in which they are described.

I get what you are saying and I have no doubt there will be people in those figures that would have died anyway, Covid19 or not. All I am saying is the vast excessive deaths for 2020 suggests that number isn't going to be all that high. 

If we take the early April to last May excessive deaths alone (all cases), the figure is over 50,000. Personally I don't think the majority of those people would have died if they hadn't contracted Covid19. A wee bit more subjective but I also believe it's likely Covid19 was a factor in many of those deaths where it wasn't listed on the death certificate. I don't see many other causes of death that would have rocketed during lockdown to account for such numbers. 

[shull]

Damn influenza. 

[shull]

Let's have a National Day of Fecking Mourning for Wales.

 

 

[Slarti]

14 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

Again you say, Covid19 related. I actually agree with you that is the case. I notice you haven't said Died OF Covid19. I'm not for one minute suggesting that there were deaths due to the virus. That is certain and means there would be more people dying. I'm saying not ALL the excessive deaths were due to it. I'm saying the figures are skewed by the manner in which they are described.

You're still wasting your time.  You're better off talking about him and not to him, though it probably won't change the responses he posts.

 

I see from his post that you quoted that he wants to know my opinion.  I see no point in giving my opinion to someone who will just automatically disagree with me (because they can't accept that I corrected them years ago when they phrased something incorrectly - that's where it all stems from), he won't be getting it, no matter how hard he tries to engage me.  No doubt he will claim that I am engaging with him because I mentioned him - so he must think that anyone who mentions Genghis Khan is engaging with Genghis.  What about that Genghis, anyway?  What the f**k was he all about?  Mad bastard.  (Hope Genghis doesn't see this and assume that I want to "engage" with him.) 

[bazil85]

2 minutes ago, Slarti said:

You're still wasting your time.  You're better off talking about him and not to him, though it probably won't change the responses he posts.

 

I see from his post that you quoted that he wants to know my opinion.  I see no point in giving my opinion to someone who will just automatically disagree with me (because they can't accept that I corrected them years ago when they phrased something incorrectly - that's where it all stems from), he won't be getting it, no matter how hard he tries to engage me.  No doubt he will claim that I am engaging with him because I mentioned him - so he must think that anyone who mentions Genghis Khan is engaging with Genghis.  What about that Genghis, anyway?  What the f**k was he all about?  Mad bastard.  (Hope Genghis doesn't see this and assume that I want to "engage" with him.) 

Waste of time posting to me. Not a waste of time obsessing over other people's posts to me.🤷‍♂️ I'll let others pick apart Slarti's logic on that one. 

Rest of his post sums him up in a nutshell. A mixture of being unable to let go of the most trivial, pedantic points and a very feeble attempt at reverse psychology (just like several other attempts, I have called him out on before) all the time while he does continue to engage with me, no matter how much he denies it. 

I've yet again just tried to give my POV on a topic and some of the usual suspects are unable to accept that. It won't stop me I'm afraid, this is an opinion forum. 

[faraway saint]

53 minutes ago, Slarti said:

You're still wasting your time.  You're better off talking about him and not to him, though it probably won't change the responses he posts.

 

I see from his post that you quoted that he wants to know my opinion.  I see no point in giving my opinion to someone who will just automatically disagree with me (because they can't accept that I corrected them years ago when they phrased something incorrectly - that's where it all stems from), he won't be getting it, no matter how hard he tries to engage me.  No doubt he will claim that I am engaging with him because I mentioned him - so he must think that anyone who mentions Genghis Khan is engaging with Genghis.  What about that Genghis, anyway?  What the f**k was he all about?  Mad bastard.  (Hope Genghis doesn't see this and assume that I want to "engage" with him.) 

Aye, he does that regularly, so desperate for the attention he can't wait to intervene when there is absolutely no need.

 

[bazil85]

12 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Aye, he does that regularly, so desperate for the attention he can't wait to intervene when there is absolutely no need.

 

I will do it as often as Slarti, you and others do it. If these people don't want to engage with me they can easily just leave me out of discussion and their posts, it really is that simple. 

It's a choice because they want to continue the engagement, simple. I don't imagine you're incapable of seeing the clear attempted reverse psychology here by Slarti, it's one of his go to moves. Part of the reason he is so upset with me, I have called him out on it regularly. 

[faraway saint]

22 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

I will continue to be a fanny as often as I can. Slarti, you and others do it. If these people don't want to engage with me they can easily just leave me out of discussion and their posts, it really is that simple. 

It's a choice because they want to continue the engagement, simple. I don't imagine you're incapable of seeing the clear attempted reverse psychology here by Slarti, it's one of his go to moves. Part of the reason he is so upset with me, I have called him out on it regularly. 

Aye, we know.

You continually assume people get upset with you, it's more exasperation that you can't grasp the simplest of points and harp on and on and fecking on about the same thing time after time.

PS I was wondering why you hadn't posted the death numbers today then I realised they are down which doesn't give you as much glee as when they go up, you sad ghoul. 

Edited October 19, 2020 by faraway saint