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Managing Our Expectations

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The average earnings of players from each of Scotland's Premier League clubs was published in The Scotsman recently:

1696733182_SPLaveragewagesterling.jpg.a91df580e1fc9dbfb1f537c5fae9022f.jpg

As you can see, the Old Firm's players earn way more than ten times ours. Hearts players earn almost three times ours, too. I believe Ross County's players' earnings must be funded by their generous benefactor, and I am not sure how Kilmarnock afford the wages they're paying.

Given our financial constraints, where do you realistically see the club's rightful place within Scottish football?

I believe as a club we're of a similar size to many others - Motherwell, Falkirk, Partick Thistle, Dundee, St. Johnstone, Kilmarnock & Dunfermline, for example - and will usually find ourselves struggling in the Premiership or thriving in the Championship. Squeezing into the top six of Scottish football is achievable, as evidenced by Motherwell, but we'd be punching above our weight.

I think it's important as a club that we're financially prudent and only ever pay players what we can afford to. I would rather have a solvent club struggling in the Championship than one gambling on our future in an attempt to secure a top six spot.

Thoughts? 

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The average earnings of players from each of Scotland's Premier League clubs was published in The Scotsman recently:
1696733182_SPLaveragewagesterling.jpg.a91df580e1fc9dbfb1f537c5fae9022f.jpg
As you can see, the Old Firm's players earn way more than ten times ours. Hearts players earn almost three times ours, too. I believe Ross County's players' earnings must be funded by their generous benefactor, and I am not sure how Kilmarnock afford the wages they're paying.
Given our financial constraints, where do you realistically see the club's rightful place within Scottish football?
I believe as a club we're of a similar size to many others - Motherwell, Falkirk, Partick Thistle, Dundee, St. Johnstone, Kilmarnock & Dunfermline, for example - and will usually find ourselves struggling in the Premiership or thriving in the Championship. Squeezing into the top six of Scottish football is achievable, as evidenced by Motherwell, but we'd be punching above our weight.
I think it's important as a club that we're financially prudent and only ever pay players what we can afford to. I would rather have a solvent club struggling in the Championship than one gambling on our future in an attempt to secure a top six spot.
Thoughts? 
You missed out Livingston, Hamilton, ICT & Ross County who as much as we think we are bigger than you could argue they are bigger than us.

ICT & Ross County have both been in top 6 in last 10 years.

Have both not won the League Cup too???

Hamilton have finished higher than us in league placings 6 years in a row.

Livingston will finish higher than us 2 years in a row with 1 top 6 finish.

Of the teams you mentioned Partick and Dundee have both been top 6 in last 10 years.

I would like at least 1 or 2 seasons to see us finishing 6/7th without worrying about relegation but we have went through 10 managers, hundreds of players over last 20 years and never got anywhere near it where other similar sized clubs have.

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31 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

You missed out Livingston, Hamilton, ICT & Ross County who as much as we think we are bigger than you could argue they are bigger than us.

ICT & Ross County have both been in top 6 in last 10 years.

Have both not won the League Cup too???

Hamilton have finished higher than us in league placings 6 years in a row.

Livingston will finish higher than us 2 years in a row with 1 top 6 finish.

Of the teams you mentioned Partick and Dundee have both been top 6 in last 10 years.

I would like at least 1 or 2 seasons to see us finishing 6/7th without worrying about relegation but we have went through 10 managers, hundreds of players over last 20 years and never got anywhere near it where other similar sized clubs have.
 

Getting to the top 6 doesn't make you a bigger club but that does seem to be the most frustrating thing about us. We never seem to have just one good season where we get in the top 6. All the other clubs you mentioned who aren't any bigger than us have managed to do it at least once. 

There isn't even a single person or group of people we can blame. Its a new manager, players, chairman and board from the last time we were in the Premier League and we still can't manage it. 

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1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

You missed out Livingston, Hamilton, ICT & Ross County who as much as we think we are bigger than you could argue they are bigger than us.

ICT & Ross County have both been in top 6 in last 10 years.

Have both not won the League Cup too???

Hamilton have finished higher than us in league placings 6 years in a row.

Livingston will finish higher than us 2 years in a row with 1 top 6 finish.

Of the teams you mentioned Partick and Dundee have both been top 6 in last 10 years.

I would like at least 1 or 2 seasons to see us finishing 6/7th without worrying about relegation but we have went through 10 managers, hundreds of players over last 20 years and never got anywhere near it where other similar sized clubs have.
 

I agree with LargsBud, whom I have also quote (below). 

Success isn't a measure of a club's size, IMHO. For years Blackburn Rovers were a force in the English Premiership, and are one of a handful of sides to win it. Indeed, currently they have won more Premiership titles than Liverpool. The reason? Jack Walker's wallet. 

Similarly, Gretna gained three successive promotions and lost out to Hearts on penalties in the Scottish Cup Final. Had it not been for their owner's illness, they might well have continued being a successful club. Were Gretna a 'big' club, though? If one truly believes The Rangers are a new club (I don't), they are the best example. 

I would argue that a club's size is ultimately defined by their support. For that reason, I would say Leeds United are a bigger club than Bournemouth and Brighton, for example. Ceteris paribus, the bigger the support, the more successful a club is likely to be. One can argue it's the old chicken and egg metaphor, as a successful club will attract supporters, but I believe a club with a big support will eventually become successful. 

In Scotland, I would rank the top six clubs as:

1) Celtic

2) Rangers

3) Hearts

4) Hibs

5) Aberdeen

6) Dundee Utd

I'd say Dundee Utd are quite a way behind Aberdeen, but are significantly bigger than the clubs I mentioned in my first post. 

 

48 minutes ago, LargsBud said:

Getting to the top 6 doesn't make you a bigger club but that does seem to be the most frustrating thing about us. We never seem to have just one good season where we get in the top 6. All the other clubs you mentioned who aren't any bigger than us have managed to do it at least once. 

There isn't even a single person or group of people we can blame. Its a new manager, players, chairman and board from the last time we were in the Premier League and we still can't manage it. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Dickson said:

Wow, raise the white flag on the back of some newspaper article. 

I have seen different figures which quoted the total wage bill of each club which showed that Hamiltons total wage budget was higher than St Mirren whilst Livingston was almost half St Mirren's budget and KIilmarnock and Motherwells total budget was roughly the same as St Mirrens. Perhaps the answer to the disparity would be squad size and the number of players included in the calculations. Who knows? 

What I do know though is that football isn't about how much money you earn. It's about eleven football players playing another eleven football players in a sports event. Being on an average £600k per year more per player didn't stop Rangers losing to Hamilton Accies, and earning more than 4 times more than the Hearts players didn't stop Hearts progressing in the Scottish Cup. 

What frustrates me about stuff like this though is when fans point the finger at themselves and other fans for their "unreasonable expectations" of having a football team that tries in matches and that makes watching the team pleasurable and enjoyable. It's not the fans fault that the board at the football club haven't been able to drive up revenue to bring in better quality players on higher wages. The fans are already doing their bit by turning up and paying ridiculous admission prices comparable to  English Championship level clubs, to watch players their club has often recruited from the English non leagues. 

Is it unreasonable for St. Mirren to win the Champions League? What about the Scottish Premiership? If so, why? I'm referring particularly to your third paragraph, btw.

Realistically, the best St. Mirren can hope for is a top six finish and a cup. If we were to do that frequently, maybe the club will attract more fans and begin to grow. 

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We pay too much to players.

We charge too much for fans to enter.

That goes for all Teams.

Nine Pounds is fine for admission price.

Part Time Wages or just expenses paid to players.

If players have full time jobs outwith St Mirren, then maybe they should pay our Club for the honour and pleasure of wearing our magnificent black and white stripes.

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3 minutes ago, Dickson said:

To be fair Shull if these wages are correct then I am surprised that St Mirren players don't have second jobs anyway. How the hell can anyone live off a £48k per annum salary especially when agents are taking their cut?

Good housekeeping.

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22 minutes ago, Dickson said:

To be fair Shull if these wages are correct then I am surprised that St Mirren players don't have second jobs anyway. How the hell can anyone live off a £48k per annum salary especially when agents are taking their cut?

The big question SD is could they afford the admission prices? 

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794324163_WageBillWarning.jpg.1a2766c2cbc8aa13d5c9406a7b1ae298.jpg

 

Quote

St Johnstone have "over-egged" their spending on players and are unable to sustain what is a top-six wage bill, admits chairman Steve Brown.

The Scottish Premiership club have been criticised for giving Old Firm fans three stands at McDiarmid Park.

However, Brown says heavy losses have forced the hand of the Perth outfit.

"We're in danger of being hypocrites because we have been outspoken in living within your means," he told BBC Scotland before the draw with Rangers.

"This year we're not going to do that, which is disappointing to say the least. I think our wage bill is the sixth in the league, which is far too high. We can't sustain that.

"We went for it at the start of the season - we thought we could get into the top six and have a cup run but we just haven't performed and that leaves a huge financial gap and concerns.

"We have got reserves, so unfortunately this year we will be hitting them in a big way and posting heavy losses, which is not good."

 

Article continues: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51607656

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15 hours ago, W6er said:

The average earnings of players from each of Scotland's Premier League clubs was published in The Scotsman recently:

1696733182_SPLaveragewagesterling.jpg.a91df580e1fc9dbfb1f537c5fae9022f.jpg

As you can see, the Old Firm's players earn way more than ten times ours. Hearts players earn almost three times ours, too. I believe Ross County's players' earnings must be funded by their generous benefactor, and I am not sure how Kilmarnock afford the wages they're paying.

Given our financial constraints, where do you realistically see the club's rightful place within Scottish football?

I believe as a club we're of a similar size to many others - Motherwell, Falkirk, Partick Thistle, Dundee, St. Johnstone, Kilmarnock & Dunfermline, for example - and will usually find ourselves struggling in the Premiership or thriving in the Championship. Squeezing into the top six of Scottish football is achievable, as evidenced by Motherwell, but we'd be punching above our weight.

I think it's important as a club that we're financially prudent and only ever pay players what we can afford to. I would rather have a solvent club struggling in the Championship than one gambling on our future in an attempt to secure a top six spot.

Thoughts? 

Its very relevant, however Livi and Accies are below us in this table yet Livi in particular are miles ahead of us on , recruitment , tactics, ability and most importantly results.  EG- Celtic have now won 1 in  last 5 against them.

 

I agree 48k is hardly life changing, but if you go below the top 12 and into the championship full time teams it gets scary….

 

But I agree with you sentiment here, I would rather be a yoyo club than an all out gambler , and we have a few teams like that littered across all 4 leagues...…...

With our inept leaders in the SPFL ,we have to rely on what's on the pitch and what comes thru the gate, and there is no doubt our support is relatively healthy, however we are always going to be limited to go to the next level if we don't be more consistent in the management and coaching, as in, stop sacking, we will never move forward, and that's why Accies, Well, Fakes and more so Livi, are ahead of us . They don't chop and change

Said it all along, we do go down this year, and I hope we don't, we keep Goodwin REGARDLESS, we put faith in our players and plans...… we let potential see we are trying to build things here, we cant afford to buy success so we have to nature it.

Somewhere there will be a  1/2/3/5 plan. We have to stick to it , even if we have to adapt it...………...

 

 

Edited by DougJamie

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8 minutes ago, Dickson said:

Haud on Doug. You talk of inept leaders in the SPFL not making enough money for St Mirren despite them extracting rather silly sums of money for TV rights. And yet you somehow miss the inept St Mirren leaders who had the opportunity to build a stadium from scratch with anything they wanted in it to ensure revenue was being brought in all day everyday and who in the end came up with a single 6-a-side football pitch to drive off field revenue. 

Fair Point

 

Not disagreeing there, think we have missed massive opportunities as a club..... we got the biggest break in selling Love Street and we never have realised the potential  that gave us

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17 hours ago, Dickson said:

When Dundee United made it to Semi Final of the European Cup in 1983-4 their players weren't even on the highest basic wage in Tayside. That might well have changed by 1987 when they were runners up in the UEFA Cup Final but their players were certainly still  earning a lot less than the Barcelona and the Borussia Monchengladbach players they knocked out along the way. 

If you have a good manager, a good set of players, and a good club ethos you can achieve way more than your fans would ever dare to dream of. History has proven that time and time again. . 

What a ridiculous comparison 😃

That Utd side were a well established unit, forged over the previous years, crammed full of top quality players on long contracts who couldn’t just be poached by bigger teams as soon as they strung half a dozen decent games together. 
In the Bosman era any even remotely decent player gets hoovered in no time and it is almost impossible for a team like St. Mirren to establish a settled team over a number of seasons.

I know that you are the main man for throwing shit at St. Mirren, but I genuinely credited you with more sense than to offer such a stupid comparison as that. 

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10 minutes ago, Dickson said:

Ridiculous is it? 

Bosman came about in 1995. Since then sides like Bordeaux, Middlesborough, Alaves, Fulham, Braga and Dnipro, as well as our own Rangers and Celtic have played in European Finals - not one of them amongst even the top 100 top paying clubs in Europe, 

As I said, with the right manager, the right players and the right club ethos many clubs can achieve way more than even their own supporters wildest dreams. 

Now this is what the forum is about. A healthy and robust exchange of views. The right board, the right manager, buy in from the fans  and clubs can outperform expectations but not perhaps on a sustained basis. Bosman certainly changed the ground rules. Financial Fair Play rules are an attempt to even up the position from a different angle. 

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17 minutes ago, MenstrieSaint said:

For St Mirren to be successful they need to be successful with two thirds of their signings in consecutive seasons , it's as simple as that .

Pretty accurate. Holding on to these is an issue but the club have given out some two year contracts this season so might have something to build on for next season. 

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28 minutes ago, MenstrieSaint said:

For St Mirren to be successful they need to be successful with two thirds of their signings in consecutive seasons , it's as simple as that .

Successful is all relative.

That could mean a multitude of things to different people. 

Last season was seen as a success by many for example. 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Successful is all relative.

That could mean a multitude of things to different people. 

Last season was seen as a success by many for example. 

 

 

 

Jings.. A philosophical argument from the F Man. What is the Forum coming too. Things are looking up. 

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6 hours ago, Dickson said:

 

Bosman came about in 1995. Since then sides like Bordeaux, Middlesborough, Alaves, Fulham, Braga and Dnipro, as well as our own Rangers and Celtic have played in European Finals - not one of them amongst even the top 100 top paying clubs

Yes but crucially you didn’t use any of them as an example. You used the 1980s Dundee Utd side. Hence why I said it was a ridiculous comparison. 
I would’ve thought that was pretty obvious and the comparison remains ridiculously stupid.

 

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3 hours ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

Yes but crucially you didn’t use any of them as an example. You used the 1980s Dundee Utd side. Hence why I said it was a ridiculous comparison. 
I would’ve thought that was pretty obvious and the comparison remains ridiculously stupid.

 

You are right. It is of course a stupid comparison for the simple reason you mentioned.

What is equally obvious is that he won't admit that his second example post was more valid and that you were right. Instead he's going to predictably dig his heels in and be a dick about it.

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6 hours ago, oaksoft said:

You are right. It is of course a stupid comparison for the simple reason you mentioned.

What is equally obvious is that he won't admit that his second example post was more valid and that you were right. Instead he's going to predictably dig his heels in and be a dick about it.

Yes, entirely predictable. My point has been made and I’ll be leaving it at that.

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