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In answer to Sonny with whom I usually respect his views how many attend Hamilton against the likes of Ross County Livi or fake Saints in the current format the answer is a little over 1000 if you are lucky no I want a larger league simply because I am fed up playing the same teams five or six times a year if you include cup games I have and always will be a campaigner for a larger league

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In answer to Sonny with whom I usually respect his views how many attend Hamilton against the likes of Ross County Livi or fake Saints in the current format the answer is a little over 1000 if you are lucky no I want a larger league simply because I am fed up playing the same teams five or six times a year if you include cup games I have and always will be a campaigner for a larger league
I'll take that as a complement :)

Over the last few seasons I have hardly missed a game home or away due to every game surviving then winning the Championship meant something. Then coming from rock bottom to win the playoffs last season. So for me there hasn't been any boring games in the last few seasons primarily because Leagues are so tight.

But everyone has an opinion and I respect most :)

Get Herts doon :)
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5 minutes ago, Sonny said:

I'll take that as a complement :)

Over the last few seasons I have hardly missed a game home or away due to every game surviving then winning the Championship meant something. Then coming from rock bottom to win the playoffs last season. So for me there hasn't been any boring games in the last few seasons primarily because Leagues are so tight.

But everyone has an opinion and I respect most :)

Get Herts doon :)

Could there not have been the same types of seasons you mentioned in larger leagues? 

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Could there not have been the same types of seasons you mentioned in larger leagues? 
A problem for me is with too many teams there is one or two who are really poor and are bottom after the opening game and stay there all season eg Gretna with many clubs marking time.

I would prefer the challenge of staying in the League by having to fight every game and if we get relegated the excitement of new clubs and a chance to win a League. Don't see that happening with 18 teams in the League. Just my thoughts.
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1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

She's actually doubling down on her idiocy here.

All it's going to do is piss off several clubs in the top flight. Her chances on this proposal passing with the favour of 11 clubs, given her recent 'charm offensive' is exactly f**king zero.

If she'd returned with a bit of humility and the admission that she'd opened her mouth and let her belly rumble with regards to this f**king stupid temporary measure and be willing to find a negotiable solution, clubs might be more onside as well.

 

Reconstruction should most certainly not be hurried through to suit exactly one club. Reconstruction is the way ahead I'm sure most folk agree but in it's current proposed guise, Hearts would literally be the only beneficiary of reconstruction being applied after the fact. It should be rolled out there as an incentive at the end of the season ahead, not the one we're still currently in.

Budge is currently loudly complaining about it not being fair to change the rules part way through a season as it negatively affects Hearts without a shred of irony or self-awareness that she is aggressively pursuing a change to the rules part way through the season to benefit her club.

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1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52338285

Interview with Tom English.

He failed to ask the question," Do you think reconstruction would have been mooted if it had been any of the other teams in the bottom four, sitting in Heart's current position?".

Shite journalism.

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4 hours ago, Sonny said:

Totally agree. Fans go to games that mean something. How many would attend Hamilton v ICT if they were both mid table and nothing to play for? The 18 team League was shite after January when teams levelled out and everyone knew the couple of teams in the frame to be champions or be relegated and the rest were just playing out time.

There are and have  always been  games in every league that have no bearing in championship, Europe and relegation.  There will always be points to play for, league positioning which brings greater revenue and a chance to blood players into the top team.  Every league will have teams safe.  Most supporters will still go along and watch their team.

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16 hours ago, shull said:

Padded fecking cells you all need.

Aye in lockdown forced to read your shite...

5 hours ago, faraway saint said:

You, and @munoz, might be right.

The fact these games are meaningless will, IMO, show in attendances, dropping quite a bit.

Look at the numbers we got for the last few games and the play off's last season?

More meaningful games will be more appealing than meaningless games, IMO. 

You're a Saints fan?!

3 hours ago, shull said:

Every League match the bottom ten Premiership  clubs play is meaningless, apart from being training sessions for future cup ties. 

RID OUR SOCCER OF THE SECTARIAN DUO. 

Other way around. Down there it's the cup games that are meaningless. The FA Cup's a joke.

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7 minutes ago, FTOF said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52338285

Interview with Tom English.

He failed to ask the question," Do you think reconstruction would have been mooted if it had been any of the other teams in the bottom four, sitting in Heart's current position?".

Shite journalism.

Yeah pretty poor effort by TE although he did mention her previous "too many clubs" statement he didn't follow it up, or press her about why relegation would be unfair or about about self-interest.

*************************

After criticising the procedure for the first vote Budge seems intent on doing pretty much the same - whittle the options down to one and present it to the clubs as a YES/NO resolution.

Quote

AB on first vote: The briefing notes outline 6 (of various) options, the advantages and disadvantages of which the Board has apparently considered. The brief summary of the first 5 of these options focus on why the Board considers these options to be unsuitable. While I have no issue with their views being expressed, I do not consider the arguments for or against these options to have been objectively expressed.

In the 6th option, the single one that members are being asked to vote on, the reasons for (not against) this being the best solution are more fully stated.

Quote

AB on second vote: Then we need to speak to every single club and explain the position so there is absolute clarity about what is being proposed. I believe we would then have to put the resolution to the board, the board would have to approve it, hopefully back it, and send it out as a resolution for the 42 to vote on.

TE should have pressed Budge on this, the clubs complaining about lack of clarity on the first vote are those who feel they suffered from it's outcome - the Dundee situation and the incompetence / suspicious circumstances surrounding this is a different issue.  

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I think Ann Budge is a tremendous source of good in Scottish football. Outstanding individual who many could learn from.

I think she is 100% correct to battle for her team. Its not right that any club should be relegated in these circumstances. Thistle situation is even worse as they have a game in hand.

I'd be gutted if SMFC had been relegated on this basis and very angry as would most of this forum !

I think it is only fair that if we cannot get agreement on long term reconstruction that we reconstruct the leagues for 1 or 2  seasons to avoid any club being relegated and also sort it for clubs like Falkirk etc. 

We are going through a situation which is a nightmare for all and a totally uncontrollable event. Surely we can find a solution that helps everyone.

The greed around money and self interest of all is appalling and stinks the core. The abject hypocrisy across all boards and fans is there for all to see, you don't have to look very hard, so hopefully we either get a fair and just short term solution or we take the chance to make long term decisions for the good of the game.

Good luck in getting any long term change that is for the good of the game if any of this lot have to compromise. 

No wonder we haven't qualified for a major national football tournament for decades.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, lenziebud said:

I think Ann Budge is a tremendous source of good in Scottish football. Outstanding individual who many could learn from.

I think she is 100% correct to battle for her team. Its not right that any club should be relegated in these circumstances. Thistle situation is even worse as they have a game in hand.

I'd be gutted if SMFC had been relegated on this basis and very angry as would most of this forum !

I think it is only fair that if we cannot get agreement on long term reconstruction that we reconstruct the leagues for 1 or 2  seasons to avoid any club being relegated and also sort it for clubs like Falkirk etc. 

We are going through a situation which is a nightmare for all and a totally uncontrollable event. Surely we can find a solution that helps everyone.

The greed around money and self interest of all is appalling and stinks the core. The abject hypocrisy across all boards and fans is there for all to see, you don't have to look very hard, so hopefully we either get a fair and just short term solution or we take the chance to make long term decisions for the good of the game.

Good luck in getting any long term change that is for the good of the game if any of this lot have to compromise. 

No wonder we haven't qualified for a major national football tournament for decades.

 

 

Agree with all of that bar the 1 or 2 year reconstruction- if we are to change the league format,  for me it has to be longer term. We have a great chance of getting what the majority of supporters in this country want, and that is a larger top division. 

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1 hour ago, GMan said:

Aye in lockdown forced to read your shite...

You're a Saints fan?!

Other way around. Down there it's the cup games that are meaningless. The FA Cup's a joke.

I wasn't talking about down there. I was referring to the Premiership. 

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14 minutes ago, munoz said:

Agree with all of that bar the 1 or 2 year reconstruction- if we are to change the league format,  for me it has to be longer term. We have a great chance of getting what the majority of supporters in this country want, and that is a larger top division. 

I said 1 or 2 years if we cannot get agreement on long term reconstruction as to relegate clubs under current circumstances is totally wrong IMO. 

I won't be holding my breath on anyone in Scottish football having foresight or willingness for change for the good of the game at their own personal cost

Edited by lenziebud
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Some idiots are chastising Hearts for not accepting relegation while there's a pandemic and everyone is suffering.  This is insane, flawed logic.

Why must the SPFL at such a time of crisis feel it necessary to inflict even more pain randomly, in this way?  It has the power to change itself without causing unnecessary pain on the Hearts and Particks of Scotland.

I accept that Celtic and DUFC would be likely league winners, but I don't accept that Hearts (and more especially Jags) were relegation fodder.  Saints were in the Hearts spot at this time last year and turned it round as many of us knew they could do.  Hearts have spent are might turn it round...  shame they had to meet big Obika in their last match.  :)

I also understand that Celtic would like to play till they amass sufficient points in order to shut up the deranged bleatings of sevco fans, who want the league declared null and void now and yet for their team to get the Second Prize money, that it had won.  No logic flaws in their "minds"...  :rolleyes:

I also understand that most fans would like a bigger league, more/different opposition (and ideally a competitive league with no bigots in it), but in these straitened circumstances, my wish would be for a new structure in which no member clubs are f**ked up, simply due to someone's wish to reorganise the deckchairs - a temporary, non-painful set of leagues is surely acceptable?

 

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1 minute ago, shull said:

This Season should be played to a finish no matter when it's played. 

You can't have final league placings with matches remaining. 

You can if you do a short term reconstruction of the league. Not ideal but fair.

I think we are in a situation that is a once in a lifetime and there is no perfect solution.

I do get your point though.

 

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2 hours ago, nedflanders123 said:

There are and have  always been  games in every league that have no bearing in championship, Europe and relegation.  There will always be points to play for, league positioning which brings greater revenue and a chance to blood players into the top team.  Every league will have teams safe.  Most supporters will still go along and watch their team.

Nobody is saying there are no meaningless games at the moment. The point is that a bigger league means more meaningless games. There's no doubt about that.

The league is good at the moment as no matter where you are in it you are likely competing for something as it could be playoff, relegation, top 6, Europe or the title.

The negatives of growing the league far outweigh the benefits for me. 

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4 hours ago, Mid Calder Saint said:

In answer to Sonny with whom I usually respect his views how many attend Hamilton against the likes of Ross County Livi or fake Saints in the current format the answer is a little over 1000 if you are lucky no I want a larger league simply because I am fed up playing the same teams five or six times a year if you include cup games I have and always will be a campaigner for a larger league

Playing different teams is such a small benefit of extending the league. What difference to your enjoyment really does it make if it's St Johnstone for the 4th time or Dunfermiline for the 2nd time?

Surely it's far more important that the game is competitive and means something?

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7 hours ago, faraway saint said:

You, and @munoz, might be right.

The fact these games are meaningless will, IMO, show in attendances, dropping quite a bit.

Look at the numbers we got for the last few games and the play off's last season?

More meaningful games will be more appealing than meaningless games, IMO. 

The last five games of last season saw an average crowd of around the 6,000 mark and the second leg of the final had above 7,ooo. However, there might well be a drop in attendances for the so called meaningless games but I'm not sure it would be that drastic. Around half of our support are ST holders and the fact we could be mid table and not languishing in the drop zone might help. Also. With the pressure of relegation not hanging over nearly half the league might make players relax for more than just the so called meaningless games. I don't really think there is such a thing in the league.

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26 minutes ago, LargsBud said:

Nobody is saying there are no meaningless games at the moment. The point is that a bigger league means more meaningless games. There's no doubt about that.

The league is good at the moment as no matter where you are in it you are likely competing for something as it could be playoff, relegation, top 6, Europe or the title.

The negatives of growing the league far outweigh the benefits for me. 

I personally agree that we should leave the league as is and that there is no long term benefit for reconstruction. 

I suspect Fitzpatrick is for it as he thinks it will allow us as a club more of a chance to stay in the top league. Complete self interest although it will be denied.

I do though think we should reconstruct for 1 season to fix the whole relegation/promotion issues that are currently in play as I think its totally unacceptable for Hearts, Thistle etc to be facing relegation in this manner.

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3 hours ago, nedflanders123 said:

There are and have  always been  games in every league that have no bearing in championship, Europe and relegation.  There will always be points to play for, league positioning which brings greater revenue and a chance to blood players into the top team.  Every league will have teams safe.  Most supporters will still go along and watch their team.

I take your point of view.

However the fewer teams the greater the competition IMHO. If for example we introduced an 18 team Premiership right now it would include Arbroath who are 6th in the Championship. Now no offence to Arbroath or their supporters but what chances does a part-time team have in a League with 17 other full time clubs most of whom have far greater wealth? You could expect Arbroath to be bottom and stay there all season with around 12 teams all kind of mid table trying to avoid a playoff or another relegation spot.

And two Saturdays ago we were due to play Away at Ross County. I had planned to go to the game as we were still in a relegation fight. However if we we were still 9th and they were 10th in an 18 team League I would not have bothered going up to Dingwall. But that's just me.

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1 hour ago, lenziebud said:

I said 1 or 2 years if we cannot get agreement on long term reconstruction as to relegate clubs under current circumstances is totally wrong IMO. 

I won't be holding my breath on anyone in Scottish football having foresight or willingness for change for the good of the game at their own personal cost

So why would it be fair to change the rules 80% of the way through the season to allow for temporary reconstruction but unfair to do so for relegation?

Reconstruction is a good idea, but don't the teams in the championship deserve a fair crack at it in a fresh season? Is that not equally as unfair to teams like Dunfermline and Ayr who had a decent shout of a playoff  a few weeks ago to lose out to Caley Thistle going up on a technicality when they only would have had the same playoff shout? Retroactively bolting it on when the league is done (and lets be clear, the league is done) and calling it a fair and just solution is absolutely hypocritical when whining that the relegation situation is not fair to Hearts.

The reality is, there's no completely 100% fair compromise. Even extending the season and ending it indefinitely isn't fair. Some squads will be more weakened by contracts ending than others. 

 

Temporary reconstruction should be punted and be the absolute last option on the table. It suits no one except Hearts who want the best of both worlds. A cynical attempt to feign benevolence of 'oh what about these poor teams in the championship?' but they'll happily punt them out in a season or two once they know that they are safe from going down and then they can get an extra OF home game back.  

Nah, load of shite.

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