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Black Lives Matter

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I've said for a while that this "taking the knee" has run its course and the recent apparent upsurge in abuse of high profile black and ethnic people may just be because it continues. In my opinion, highlighting one section of the population, even for the right reasons, is divisionary  and, eventually, counterproductive. To some this slogan may be tantamount to suggesting that other lives don't matter as much. It could, and may well did, give reactionaries a platform to further divide.
For certain. Ensure we are all treated equal as far as creed and colour are concerned but ensure we are being inclusive when condemning those who seek to persecute and harass those who they see as different. After all. We are ALL precisely that. Different.
Rant over. 


Better watch out, I was branded a racist on here for pointing out that very thing quite a while ago.

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3 hours ago, stlucifer said:

I've said for a while that this "taking the knee" has run its course and the recent apparent upsurge in abuse of high profile black and ethnic people may just be because it continues. In my opinion, highlighting one section of the population, even for the right reasons, is divisionary 

When that one section of the population is still routinely being discriminated against in all areas of life then it isn't divisionary to take the knee. It is a mark of solidarity with their struggle. This is not something white people in this country have ever historically had to worry about due to our skin colour and IMO we are not displaying enough understanding of this point when we shout "All Lives Matter". They SHOULD matter but quite a few lives seem to matter a lot less than others.

Change is coming. People are no longer prepared to tolerate this shit.

Rather than worrying about how it might make a dwindling number of racists feel, maybe we should get behind the solidarity message. It's the very least we can do. Upsetting a few bastards is an inevitability of any societal change and it's about time we  as a society started aggressively rooting them out. If the simple act of taking a knee is the way to do that then that's a good thing.

Oh and blaming the taking of a knee for the uprise in racist attacks is as clear an example of victim blaming as you'll get. We should stop doing that.

Edited by oaksoft

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When that one section of the population is still routinely being discriminated against in all areas of life then it isn't divisionary to take the knee. It is a mark of solidarity with their struggle. This is not something white people in this country have ever historically had to worry about due to our skin colour and IMO we are not displaying enough understanding of this point when we shout "All Lives Matter". They SHOULD matter but quite a few lives seem to matter a lot less than others.
Change is coming. People are no longer prepared to tolerate this shit.
Rather than worrying about how it might make a dwindling number of racists feel, maybe we should get behind the solidarity message. It's the very least we can do. Upsetting a few bastards is an inevitability of any societal change and it's about time we  as a society started aggressively rooting them out. If the simple act of taking a knee is the way to do that then that's a good thing.
Oh and blaming the taking of a knee for the uprise in racist attacks is as clear an example of victim blaming as you'll get. We should stop doing that.


So you think it should be "All Lives Matter" then. Or at least "Black Lives Matter Too".

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46 minutes ago, Slarti said:


So you think it should be "All Lives Matter" then. Or at least "Black Lives Matter Too".

 

"All Lives Matter" completely misses the point.

I did suggest a while back that Black Lives Matters Too would be a better name but again getting bogged down on a name misses the point.

The point is that discrimination against people of colour is real and happens in every facet of life in ways which white people generally don't have to think about. For me, this is about solidarity. Nothing more.

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"All Lives Matter" completely misses the point.
I did suggest a while back that Black Lives Matters Too would be a better name but again getting bogged down on a name misses the point.
The point is that discrimination against people of colour is real and happens in every facet of life in ways which white people generally don't have to think about. For me, this is about solidarity. Nothing more.
But it doesn't miss the point. The name of any organisation, especially one that is trying to get a message across with the name alone, is very important.

For example, take that knitting club and craft shop you started, if you had called it "Kill All Ni**ers" instead of "Oaky's Amazing Knits and Yarns", do you think it would have attracted a different clientele due to the "message" the name sends?

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1 hour ago, Slarti said:

But it doesn't miss the point. The name of any organisation, especially one that is trying to get a message across with the name alone, is very important.

For example, take that knitting club and craft shop you started, if you had called it "Kill All Ni**ers" instead of "Oaky's Amazing Knits and Yarns", do you think it would have attracted a different clientele due to the "message" the name sends?

OK that's me out of this discussion.

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11 hours ago, oaksoft said:

When that one section of the population is still routinely being discriminated against in all areas of life then it isn't divisionary to take the knee. It is a mark of solidarity with their struggle. This is not something white people in this country have ever historically had to worry about due to our skin colour and IMO we are not displaying enough understanding of this point when we shout "All Lives Matter". They SHOULD matter but quite a few lives seem to matter a lot less than others.

Change is coming. People are no longer prepared to tolerate this shit.

Rather than worrying about how it might make a dwindling number of racists feel, maybe we should get behind the solidarity message. It's the very least we can do. Upsetting a few bastards is an inevitability of any societal change and it's about time we  as a society started aggressively rooting them out. If the simple act of taking a knee is the way to do that then that's a good thing.

Oh and blaming the taking of a knee for the uprise in racist attacks is as clear an example of victim blaming as you'll get. We should stop doing that.

Your very first sentence suggests you take a simplistic look at racism. Do you really think that blacks are the only ones who are routinely discriminated against? Taking the knee is a singular gesture for ONE minority group. There are many minorities targeted by different groups. I feel singling out one section is counterproductive. Especially when it ignores other parts of society similarly maltreated. If you think I'm worried about how those malevolent idiots feel you don't, or don't want to, see my point.  I feel we need to be inclusive when pointing out and trying to end racism in ALL its forms. I think we need to move on and look at ALL those who are abused and threatened. I suggested from the outset that it would have been more appropriate to say, as Slarti alluded to, "Black lives matter TOO". To suggest I was blaming the movement for the upsurge in racism is, again, simplistic. I was suggesting that it creates a target. It singles out a group. It does the opposite from its intentions. As usual you take a snippit of a post and run with it which takes it out of context. 

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9 hours ago, oaksoft said:

"All Lives Matter" completely misses the point.

I did suggest a while back that Black Lives Matters Too would be a better name but again getting bogged down on a name misses the point.

The point is that discrimination against people of colour is real and happens in every facet of life in ways which white people generally don't have to think about. For me, this is about solidarity. Nothing more.

Yet you continue to suggest that its only the colour black that should matter. And there are many white people, even in this country, who have been put upon. For a while the Polish community were abused for "stealing our jobs". Solidarity is precisely why we should NOT highlight one particular section of humanity.

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Yet you continue to suggest that its only the colour black that should matter. And there are many white people, even in this country, who have been put upon. For a while the Polish community were abused for "stealing our jobs". Solidarity is precisely why we should NOT highlight one particular section of humanity.
Whilst you and Slarti are making valid points, you and he are not the problem as in the racists that are.

It is because of the racists that the need to highlight the folk with a slogan/group that have been targeted is required.

Every decent person knows that all lives matter or black lives matter too. Let's not get to bothered with a few words or terms and concentrate on the actual problem, racists.

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39 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

Yet you continue to suggest that its only the colour black that should matter. And there are many white people, even in this country, who have been put upon. For a while the Polish community were abused for "stealing our jobs". Solidarity is precisely why we should NOT highlight one particular section of humanity.

I've always been a great fan of Solidarity. (The Poles used that word pretty well, not so long ago)

Before the Poles in Scotland were so abused, it was the Irish who were taking our jobs - and I believe that incoming Asians, in general, and the Ugandan Asians and also the Chinese and the Jews have been (ahem) tarred with the same mistakenly aggrieved brush.

All those other groups who have "come to take our jobs" have (through time) been accepted, assimilated and integrated  as part of the norm. 

An undoubted special burden sits on the shoulders of one particular section of humanity - those born with a black skin, African skin...  Black folk still suffer real racial, structural, educational, aspirational hurdles littering their paths through life.

 

Government does little to alleviate that.  I see no problem with a sport making gestures to highlight the disparities faced by blacks in their sport and in UK generally.  It is a stolid, peaceful way of making their valid point.

 

Would you rather they took the Irish or Al Qaeda route to achieve a modicum of fairness?

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Whilst you and Slarti are making valid points, you and he are not the problem as in the racists that are.

It is because of the racists that the need to highlight the folk with a slogan/group that have been targeted is required.

Every decent person knows that all lives matter or black lives matter too. Let's not get to bothered with a few words or terms and concentrate on the actual problem, racists.

That's my very point. All racists.

11 minutes ago, antrin said:

I've always been a great fan of Solidarity. (The Poles used that word pretty well, not so long ago)

Before the Poles in Scotland were so abused, it was the Irish who were taking our jobs - and I believe that incoming Asians, in general, and the Ugandan Asians and also the Chinese and the Jews have been (ahem) tarred with the same mistakenly aggrieved brush.

All those other groups who have "come to take our jobs" have (through time) been accepted, assimilated and integrated  as part of the norm. 

An undoubted special burden sits on the shoulders of one particular section of humanity - those born with a black skin, African skin...  Black folk still suffer real racial, structural, educational, aspirational hurdles littering their paths through life.

 

Government does little to alleviate that.  I see no problem with a sport making gestures to highlight the disparities faced by blacks in their sport and in UK generally.  It is a stolid, peaceful way of making their valid point.

 

Would you rather they took the Irish or Al Qaeda route to achieve a modicum of fairness?

 

 

 

Personally. I would rather none of it was necessary. But life is such that we get people who have a feeling of superiority or, strangely enough, more often,  inferiority, that makes them want to indulge in the disgusting abuse of others because of creed or colour. To oppose this the rest of us need to stand together in the pursuit of decency. To this end I just feel that only highlighting one section is, as I said, counterproductive.

ETA. This is my opinion and I know a lot of people will have different ideas on the issue so I'm stepping out at this juncture as I don't believe it would be easy to change most people perspective. As a last point I would say, although I don't necessarily always agree with the manner in which it is done,  ALL peaceful attempts to rid the world of the archaic notion that one part of the population is worth less than any other has to be commended.

Edited by stlucifer

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24 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

 

ETA. This is my opinion and I know a lot of people will have different ideas on the issue so I'm stepping out at this juncture as I don't believe it would be easy to change most people perspective. As a last point I would say, although I don't necessarily always agree with the manner in which it is done,  ALL peaceful attempts to rid the world of the archaic notion that one part of the population is worth less than any other has to be commended.

Perhaps my post was a tad overwrought...

All I was pointing out is that there have been many sections of society, ridiculed and oppressed down the years but only one section has been kept suppressed and disrespected since time immemorial.

Black people live daily with a problem that just doesn't diminish - so it deserves to be highlighted until such time as it does disappear..

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16 minutes ago, antrin said:

Perhaps my post was a tad overwrought...

All I was pointing out is that there have been many sections of society, ridiculed and oppressed down the years but only one section has been kept suppressed and disrespected since time immemorial.

Black people live daily with a problem that just doesn't diminish - so it deserves to be highlighted until such time as it does disappear..

And my simple point is, so does any section of the population. Look what's happening in China. 

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No.

You missed my point.

In the Western world, despite there having been wave after wave of immigrants shifting around, only one group has been systematically retained as an underclass simply due to the colour of their skin.  That is unique. It's unlike any other section of the population. 

I'm guessing your China reference may be about persecution of the Uighurs, currently?

Or is it about the suppression of Tibet and its cultural traditions.?  Or is it the expansionist plans for Taiwan?  Or its economic invasion (and tacit takeovers) of poor African nations?

The ongoing, centuries-long  suppression of UK/US/EU blacks (contrary to all other groups' reception and acceptance) is surely not to be compared with China's Imperialist endeavours?

 

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3 hours ago, stlucifer said:

And my simple point is, so does any section of the population. Look what's happening in China. 

And this is why we need continued education.

We have supposedly intelligent people like yourself who genuinely believe that black people are no more discriminated against than any other section of society.

It's honestly utterly depressing to read this sort of nonsense.

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And this is why we need continued education.
We have supposedly intelligent people like yourself who genuinely believe that black people are no more discriminated against than any other section of society.
It's honestly utterly depressing to read this sort of nonsense.
Ok, I'll bite. In Scotland, how are black people discriminated against in ways that nobody else is, or what discrimination is disproportionately against blacks?

Yes, I am limiting it to Scotland, and I know about alleged/perceived/actual discrimination in places like the US against blacks, in the same way that I am aware of discriminations against others in other places.

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Ok, I'll bite. In Scotland, how are black people discriminated against in ways that nobody else is, or what discrimination is disproportionately against blacks?

Yes, I am limiting it to Scotland, and I know about alleged/perceived/actual discrimination in places like the US against blacks, in the same way that I am aware of discriminations against others in other places.
Why not ask a black person?

I did.

Changed my attitude and belief as a result!

Okay actually makes a good and fair point.

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46 minutes ago, Slarti said:

Ok, I'll bite. In Scotland, how are black people discriminated against in ways that nobody else is, or what discrimination is disproportionately against blacks?

Yes, I am limiting it to Scotland, and I know about alleged/perceived/actual discrimination in places like the US against blacks, in the same way that I am aware of discriminations against others in other places.

I am not getting sucked into one of your games on this issue.

If you want to indulge in racial gaslighting, you won't be doing it with me.

Edited by oaksoft

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1 minute ago, BuddieinEK said:

Why not ask a black person?

I did.

Changed my attitude and belief as a result!

Okay actually makes a good and fair point.

One of the problems they face is racial gaslighting which is exactly what Lucy and slarti are engaging in now.

There was an article on the BBC about that last week.

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I was recently looking through some of my primary school class photos. I'd forgotten that there was a couple of children in my class for a couple of years that had origins from the middle east. I had never noticed or remembered their skin colour being different from mine.

Why hadn't I remembered, because it never fcuking mattered.



I'll start with our club, we've had players from numerous countries, numerous races, numerous religions and unfortunately numerous abilities.

Paisley, we welcome the same folk into our society to learn at our University.

When we welcome these people to our club, into our towns and cities from wherever. Then by already showing that we the majority understand and more importantly stand with anyone that is attacked by racists. We can stamp it out by highlighting the problem and dealing with/educating the racists and hopefully kids like I was, will grow up not giving a dam what colour of skin their class mates have.

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