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St Mirren v Ross County 22/8/20


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18 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

That would work had the game been stopped for a foul, it hadn’t. Play was allowed to continue because the referee saw no foul, it wasn’t a case of waiting to see how play developed as there was obviously no potential advantage to Ross County. The game was stopped because of injury, which wasn’t even a head knock, and then the 4th official became involved.......had he called it straight away then there may be an argument for your quote above but the 4th official wasn't better placed than either the referee nor the far side linesman so no way was it clearly visible. I don’t think it was any anti-St Mirren thing but I doesn’t sit right.

I think you've misunderstood my point. The point I'm making is that the fourth official had no reason to get involved and indeed it was against the rules for him to do so 

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  • Fourth official assisting with a substitution.

    In usual practice, the fourth official assists the referee in the following ways:
  • Assisting with administrative functions before, during and after the match;
  • Assessment of players' equipment;
  • Ensuring substitutions are conducted in an orderly manner;
  • Notifying the referee of the details of the substitution, by means of numbered boards or electronic displays (where supplied);
  • Notifying the teams and spectators, by means of numbered boards or electronic displays where supplied, of the amount of time added on at the end of each half, after having been advised of this by the referee;
  • Acting as the contact point between the match officiating crew and any non-participants (such as stadium managers, security personnel, broadcast crews, and ball retrievers);
  • Maintaining decorum in the teams' technical areas and interceding in situations where coaches, bench personnel, or substitutes become agitated;
  • In practice, the fourth official becomes a key member of the officiating team, who can watch the field and players and advise the Referee on situations that are going on out of his sight. The fourth official keeps an extra set of records, and helps make sure the Referee does not make a serious error such as cautioning the wrong player, or giving two cautions to the same player and forgetting to send off the player.[3]
  • The fourth official played a significant role in the 2006 World Cup Final when fourth official Luis Medina Cantalejo informed referee Horacio Elizondo of the actions of France's Zinedine Zidane, resulting in Elizondo showing Zidane a red card and sending him from the field. French manager Raymond Domenech accused Cantalejo of using the replay board to initiate the process that led to Zidane's ejection, which would have broken FIFA rules, but FIFA maintained that Cantalejo did not breach any rules and acted properly.
  • The fourth official serves as a replacement official in the event that one of the other officials (referee or assistant referees) can not continue officiating (usually through injury).
  • In situations where an assistant referee is unable to continue, the fourth official replaces that assistant referee. In situations where the referee is unable to continue, the fourth official replaces the referee directly, or the senior assistant referee replaces the referee, with the fourth official in turn taking an assistant's position. Competition rules are supposed to clarify which of these options is to occur. If for some reason it is not stated, then typically the official with the most refereeing experience (either the fourth official or the senior assistant referee) will replace the referee.
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2 minutes ago, Kenny fae Partick' said:

I think you've misunderstood my point. The point I'm making is that the fourth official had no reason to get involved and indeed it was against the rules for him to do so 

Sorry Kenny, I didn’t mean to appear to be disagreeing with your point, more expanding on it!!

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3 hours ago, Saint@Johnstone said:

Quite a few have opined that Morais “just needs a goal “ . That ship has sailed, it was easy to spot in one game that he lacks ability at this level. Perhaps his contract is so onerous that whoever sanctioned it is  too embarrassed to admit the mistake. A lack of funds does not make it necessary to accept second rate players. A good eye for a player would save precious funds. With any luck Mr Morais’ has run out.

I agree with you. I think he does the closing down and pressing well. Other than that he is junk. Looks utterly lost in front of goal. Continually loses possession. Goodwin's speal after the match when asked about him was good man management but deep down I think he knows he's not up to it. Last season he was utter garbage and this season is no better for me. The just need a goal patter is junk too. He scored last season when that was the story and was complete cr@p week after week thereafter.

Maybe things will click fro him but I very much doubt it. Good pro, honest and dedicated but simply not good enough at this level.

I expect we will bin him in the summer unless we get a big improvement. If Dennis is junk also then we have a big problem up front.

McAlister is not far behind him at the moment but given his performances before going to Derby then I can hold out a bit longer on him.

The 2 current biggest weaknesses in the team hence we aren't doing enough up top.

Just my opinion on both and I know many will disagree.

Edited by lenziebud
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Had this discussion with my son and got no were.  But I thought ref. and lines persons were only responsible for play on the park and fourth for anything off park. :unsure:
It is worse than that.

I sat in the directors box at Tynecastle once... Beside an SFA observer who happened to be mined up to the officials.

I actually heard HIM call a decision!
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2 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said:

It is worse than that.

I sat in the directors box at Tynecastle once... Beside an SFA observer who happened to be mined up to the officials.

I actually heard HIM call a decision!

Explosive stuff.

 

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30 minutes ago, pod said:

 

  • In practice, the fourth official becomes a key member of the officiating team, who can watch the field and players and advise the Referee on situations that are going on out of his sight.

I’m quite sure the ref saw the incident and thought there was nothing amiss.If the incident had happened behind the refs back I could maybe understand the 4th official getting involved.

Are there any/many examples of 4th officials calling the shots in the past?

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30 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

It's a red card for me.

It's not just about winning the ball. It's the totality of the challenge.

The follow through looked close to a leg breaker.

Hopefully just a one match ban.

Is a straight red not a minimum of two matches??

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Am definitely worried about performance levels,as for 45 minutes against livvy was bad and 90 minutes against gers was awful to watch and 2nd half performance against accies was also hard to watch and a think we only played ok for about 25mins against county,a do no stadium is empty and not the same but our level of performance has me worried a also believe Baird should get his chance on sat and hopefully Dennis start as junior has had his chances last season and this season so time for us to step it up a bit more

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Hopefully just a 1 game ban as there was clearly no malice involved

Dennis in next Sat please, and with that we can work on our shape.....

Fakes have been very unlucky however they will miss Craig, for me, its an awesome start

Still undefeated at home this year, already with an away win on poxy plastic, a solid defence and a new attacker itchin to go.... Obika already has 2

Having watched some games i can honestly say NO team is playing well, Hibs have been rank and have 13 points ??

Sevco may well bow to much needed finance , there is def something bad happening at Well, Livi have just signed Stokes...

So again IMHO, plus marks to Saints , County and United who have all massively improved and the table reflects that

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26 minutes ago, paul torfason said:

Am definitely worried about performance levels,as for 45 minutes against livvy was bad and 90 minutes against gers was awful to watch and 2nd half performance against accies was also hard to watch and a think we only played ok for about 25mins against county,a do no stadium is empty and not the same but our level of performance has me worried a also believe Baird should get his chance on sat and hopefully Dennis start as junior has had his chances last season and this season so time for us to step it up a bit more

If the appeal against JS red card fails then I'm pretty sure it will be McCarthy and Foley at CB , with Cammy back in midfield. I also think he will persist with Morias for now , using Dennis as a sub. Baird on the bench in case of emergencies , but I wouldn't be surprised seeing him go back to Morton after the international break !

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Is a straight red not a minimum of two matches??
Not always. For example a straight red for foul/abusive language is a 1 game ban. Serious foul play (which is what Shaughnessy will be charged with) is usually a 2 game ban. Violent conduct (anything Morelos had done in the last 2 seasons) is a 3 game ban.
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It’s probably a moot point but let’s say none of the officials picked up on the tackle, would it be looked at retrospectively and the player receives a red based on tv evidence? I guess it throws up another point that he would have remained on the pitch and we still have 11 v 11. 
We may have a case if the 4th official hasn’t followed protocol but I think it’s unlikely. 
The argument shouldn’t be around whether it’s a red or not, more about how it was handled on the day.

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Has anyone asked the question how Shaughnessy could have won the ball in the circumstances without incurring a red card?

Yes, he went in fast and hard - (otherwise he would not have got to the ball first) - but can the officials state what Shaughnessy could have done differently?

They might argue for example that his studs were showing when he made contact with Stewart - but could this have been avoided given the height of the ball at the time - ie. a couple of feet off the ground?

His 'momentum' resulted in the collision which sounds better than 'follow through' - which suggests some deliberate intent was involved.

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1 hour ago, Long John Baldy said:

I'm not sure you are allowed to try to win the ball under ANY circumstances? 

He didn't NEED to try to win the ball or dive in as he did. 

So he should not have tried to win the ball in this particular situation?

What would you have done - let Stewart get there first?

Edited by northstbuddie
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Take on board your comments but we have to he realistic we only had two bounce games against Hibs and Hamilton and have now played just four league matches new players are still gelling and we sit in sixth position with a game in hand all in all we have to be pleased so far.

Am definitely worried about performance levels,as for 45 minutes against livvy was bad and 90 minutes against gers was awful to watch and 2nd half performance against accies was also hard to watch and a think we only played ok for about 25mins against county,a do no stadium is empty and not the same but our level of performance has me worried a also believe Baird should get his chance on sat and hopefully Dennis start as junior has had his chances last season and this season so time for us to step it up a bit more
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39 minutes ago, Long John Baldy said:

Defenders can stand off. 🙄

Anyhow, it's neither here nor there, matters closed.

We move on. 

Stewart is the one who should have pulled out of the tackle,  as he was always going to be second best. A strikers challenge if I've seen one. 

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Having looked it again from all the available angles I believe he has a case for the Red to be rescinded.

Ross actually takes a swipe of fresh air that puts his leg in a place that couldn't have been foreseen. So it was Ross that actually endangered Joe with his actions rather than the other way about.

PS, has anyone mentioned the late tackle on the touchline for St Mirren seconds before that wasn't given?

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