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4 minutes ago, StanleySaint said:

Sorry Baz, no amount of PR spin was going to detract from the situation where the richest clubs celebrated their wealth in a vanity competition when they had earned the right to participate in the stock echange rather than on the field of play.

Indeed, his belief that supporters could have been swayed shows how out of touch he is with football and what it means to supporters. 

A victory for supporters of football, not forgetting football is a global game/business, but this was a step too far.

Greed loses out, a good day for football. 

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6 hours ago, bazil85 said:

With the approach, I think the backlash was very, very predictable. I hope no one will create a mountain out of a molehill for this next bit (then again we know what some are like on BAWA don't we?) but I imagine most would agree on that.

What baffles me is the way they went about it and the way they backed down, I can't get my head around how poorly planned out the announcements and proposal format were.

It was never going to be popular with UEFA, EPL, etc but I feel a lot more fan involvement, engagement and explanation about what and why they were doing this and it could have been better sold to fans and even other clubs. I don't think we've seen the end of the related issues by a longshot but the manner of the ESL will likely go down as one of the biggest own goals in recent football history. 

I never expect compliments on here but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be welcome... :whistle

It comes from entitlement and a genuine belief that the manager, players and fans would just follow the club regardless.

It truly beggars belief that they didn't consult any of these people before making their sanctimonious "we're saving football" announcement. If they HAD consulted them, they'd have stopped this in its tracks. Now it's going to cost them to break the contract they have signed and there will be serious repercussions at UEFA and national league level.

IMO, there should be significant fines imposed on the clubs - distributed down the leagues to grassroots football, perhaps 25 point deductions as well for the start of next season and maybe the owners will face direct sanctions including forcing them to sell many of their shares. A message needs sending out to ensure this never happens again.

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9 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

It comes from entitlement and a genuine belief that the manager, players and fans would just follow the club regardless.

It truly beggars belief that they didn't consult any of these people before making their sanctimonious "we're saving football" announcement. If they HAD consulted them, they'd have stopped this in its tracks. Now it's going to cost them to break the contract they have signed and there will be serious repercussions at UEFA and national league level.

IMO, there should be significant fines imposed on the clubs - distributed down the leagues to grassroots football, perhaps 25 point deductions as well for the start of next season and maybe the owners will face direct sanctions including forcing them to sell many of their shares. A message needs sending out to ensure this never happens again.

😂😂😂 The post below kinda suggests you change like the wind. 

Edited by faraway saint

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22 hours ago, oaksoft said:

This is all going pretty much as I suspected it would do years and years ago when money started pouring in to the game.

Despite all the money coming in, more and more is needed just to stand still. It's the very definition of a bubble. At some point, and it's looking close now, that bubble might well burst, leaving many clubs unable to service their debts. Maybe the TV money will eventually peter out for teams not involved in this tournament. At that point we're going to potentially see real damage to all those clubs who have rattled up debts. This has the potential to cause devastation to the game across the continent. Nobody wins from this. The clubs involved will rack up further debts and the clubs not involved will maybe have substantially less money from TV and could face going bust.

Despite all of that, greed will ensure that this will go ahead IMO and an agreement will be made to distribute more money down the chain.

UEFA are not about to kill their premier tournament in the summer by banning players from the Euros.

The key to the impact elsewhere is what TV companies do with all of this.

 

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10 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

Folded quicker than I expected. it was entertaining to see various politicians etc dusting down their "ordinary bloke" personae over the last few days.

They are testing the water

This will happen with a few tweaks here and there

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2 hours ago, StanleySaint said:

Sorry Baz, no amount of PR spin was going to detract from the situation where the richest clubs celebrated their wealth in a vanity competition when they had earned the right to participate in the stock echange rather than on the field of play.

IMO that's pretty much what the Champions League & high end EPL has become, practically a closed shop (all be it to a few extra clubs) in all but name only. This is a win for a different group of wealthy people, NOT fans. 

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1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

It comes from entitlement and a genuine belief that the manager, players and fans would just follow the club regardless.

It truly beggars belief that they didn't consult any of these people before making their sanctimonious "we're saving football" announcement. If they HAD consulted them, they'd have stopped this in its tracks. Now it's going to cost them to break the contract they have signed and there will be serious repercussions at UEFA and national league level.

IMO, there should be significant fines imposed on the clubs - distributed down the leagues to grassroots football, perhaps 25 point deductions as well for the start of next season and maybe the owners will face direct sanctions including forcing them to sell many of their shares. A message needs sending out to ensure this never happens again.

I agree with all of that although I think big fines and points deductions might be wishful thinking given the preliminary court grumbles. 

I am still in favour of a breakaway European league of some sort, (hopefully one with an invite for the ugly sisters as well) but the approach has been staggeringly poor. 

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3 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

IMO that's pretty much what the Champions League & high end EPL has become, practically a closed shop (all be it to a few extra clubs) in all but name only. This is a win for a different group of wealthy people, NOT fans. 

Are you actually suggesting it wasn't the adverse "fan" reaction that overturned this and somehow isn't a win for the fans, utter nonsense.

Wealthier clubs have always had advantage when winning trophies and qualifying for Europe since European competition began but qualification was still achieved on sporting merit. I hate the fact that the Champions League isn't just for Champions but you still have to reach the qualifying positions to gain entry, this was automatic entry for 15 teams with only 5 to qualify on some sort of sporting merit which would still have been loaded in some way. You, and only you from what I've read on here, were in favour of taking away the dream, no matter how unlikely (although think Leicester) of every fan and aspiring player to see their team at the top table and that is a horrific betrayal on the traditions of the game.

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1 hour ago, windae cleaner said:

They are testing the water

This will happen with a few tweaks here and there

I don’t know if it will The fans are extremely pissed off and will fight it every step of the way I think the clubs under estimated fan power and maybe now realise that the fans are the most important part of the game

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33 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

Are you actually suggesting it wasn't the adverse "fan" reaction that overturned this and somehow isn't a win for the fans, utter nonsense.

Wealthier clubs have always had advantage when winning trophies and qualifying for Europe since European competition began but qualification was still achieved on sporting merit. I hate the fact that the Champions League isn't just for Champions but you still have to reach the qualifying positions to gain entry, this was automatic entry for 15 teams with only 5 to qualify on some sort of sporting merit which would still have been loaded in some way. You, and only you from what I've read on here, were in favour of taking away the dream, no matter how unlikely (although think Leicester) of every fan and aspiring player to see their team at the top table and that is a horrific betrayal on the traditions of the game.

No, I absolutely do not think this is a win for the fans, I don't think the status quo was the fans winning, so why is it now? Your second paragraph suggests you may share some of my own views on why this isn't a fan win. 

- €600 ticket bands for Champions League matches 

- Often over 50% of the biggest matches tickets going to corporate and commercial relationships 

- TV deals that easily run into thousands of pounds for individual fans a year

- Replica strips topping £100 marks (and sometimes three or four different ones released a season) 

I get why people weren't happy about the "closed shop" but for me, Champions League it is a closed shop in all but name only (granted for a few extra teams), that's my opinion and it's my opinion based on the money that utterly shafts fans. 

The dream is dead for 99% of football clubs, the European Super Cup hasn't changed that and the hypocrisy in the new Champions League format solidifies it further with some free passes for teams not getting there on merit.

I get this is an emotive subject for people but it doesn't mean I can't be in favour of a project that I hoped one day would achieve the below:

If you don't read the rest of my post which I get some don't, read the next bit, I think it's the hope at what this could have led to. 

- The biggest clubs separated in their own rich boys playground, a product for people that love top level football, best vs the best (Cue the FS breakdown) leave them to it & the Asian, Middle East, American, etc markets. 

- Domestic leagues downsizing and becoming more focused on local fanbases, returning domestic football at least in part to its working class roots in an affordable product for remaining clubs. 

- Domestic leagues becoming more competitive because most of the rich tourist clubs aren't there & hopefully a bit more about the sport than corporate greed. 

- The Champions League still existing for the winners & best performers in domestic leagues, completely separate from the European Super League. 

You say it kills the dream, for me if it was done right and they were left to do their own thing, the European football dream would be alive and well for many other clubs left in more fan focused, domestic competitions. 

Edited by bazil85

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The climb downs today by the Chairman's is hilarious

"Oh I am so sorry I made a mistake""

There was no mistake , they knew exactly what they were signing up for, more money for them and feck the rest, end the rule of competition and replace it with greed and an exclusive club

Its actually a form of treason, so I reckon all clubs that signed up should carry a 2 year ban on all Euro competition, then lets see how the agents and mercenaries they employ react ,  hang em high

  

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Woodward has not resigned, he was leaving anyway. So now the PR machines are in full swing. No punishment for the rebels as they’ve done the right thing. Only good news I’ve seen this morning is that any lingering hopes the bigot brothers had of leaving are dead in the water.
Watching Sky this morning and the consensus is that punishment would be harsh!!!!
That’ll teach them.
As an aside, the owners of these clubs cannot be removed. There are very few people wealthy enough to buy out the Glazers etc even if they wanted to sell

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none of it matters

 a game that was already fecked has avoided one form of additional feck-over only for those involved, on both sides of the feckery this week, to head off together and work out how to feck everyone else over in some other way that can be deemed as palatable by us mugs.  I believe that the only REAL objection from other clubs was that they weren't involved.  

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20 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

No, I absolutely do not think this is a win for the fans, I don't think the status quo was the fans winning, so why is it now? Your second paragraph suggests you may share some of my own views on why this isn't a fan win. 

- €600 ticket bands for Champions League matches 

- Often over 50% of the biggest matches tickets going to corporate and commercial relationships 

- TV deals that easily run into thousands of pounds for individual fans a year

- Replica strips topping £100 marks (and sometimes three or four different ones released a season) 

I get why people weren't happy about the "closed shop" but for me, Champions League it is a closed shop in all but name only (granted for a few extra teams), that's my opinion and it's my opinion based on the money that utterly shafts fans. 

The dream is dead for 99% of football clubs, the European Super Cup hasn't changed that and the hypocrisy in the new Champions League format solidifies it further with some free passes for teams not getting there on merit.

I get this is an emotive subject for people but it doesn't mean I can't be in favour of a project that I hoped one day would achieve the below:

If you don't read the rest of my post which I get some don't, read the next bit, I think it's the hope at what this could have led to. 

- The biggest clubs separated in their own rich boys playground, a product for people that love top level football, best vs the best (Cue the FS breakdown) leave them to it & the Asian, Middle East, American, etc markets. 

- Domestic leagues downsizing and becoming more focused on local fanbases, returning domestic football at least in part to its working class roots in an affordable product for remaining clubs. 

- Domestic leagues becoming more competitive because most of the rich tourist clubs aren't there & hopefully a bit more about the sport than corporate greed. 

- The Champions League still existing for the winners & best performers in domestic leagues, completely separate from the European Super League. 

You say it kills the dream, for me if it was done right and they were left to do their own thing, the European football dream would be alive and well for many other clubs left in more fan focused, domestic competitions. 

Baz, as always you're heading of at tangents but, as requested, I read the bit in bold and I think it's where you're in missing what has actually happened. The reason this was overturned was because even those six English clubs are entrenched in their local (loose term) community. It hasn't been the fans in Asia, Middle East or America that have overturned this, it's the more local fans.....they're not interested in playing the other wealthy teams at the expense of not playing in their domestic leagues.  I don't think the clubs were overly worried about what Burnley fans, St Mirren fans or any others think, it was the reaction of their "own" fans that has overturned this and the victory is theirs. On that basis the rest of your "wishlist" falls flat.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

No, I absolutely do not think this is a win for the fans, I don't think the status quo was the fans winning, so why is it now? Your second paragraph suggests you may share some of my own views on why this isn't a fan win. 

- €600 ticket bands for Champions League matches 

- Often over 50% of the biggest matches tickets going to corporate and commercial relationships 

- TV deals that easily run into thousands of pounds for individual fans a year

- Replica strips topping £100 marks (and sometimes three or four different ones released a season) 

I get why people weren't happy about the "closed shop" but for me, Champions League it is a closed shop in all but name only (granted for a few extra teams), that's my opinion and it's my opinion based on the money that utterly shafts fans. 

The dream is dead for 99% of football clubs, the European Super Cup hasn't changed that and the hypocrisy in the new Champions League format solidifies it further with some free passes for teams not getting there on merit.

I get this is an emotive subject for people but it doesn't mean I can't be in favour of a project that I hoped one day would achieve the below:

If you don't read the rest of my post which I get some don't, read the next bit, I think it's the hope at what this could have led to. 

- The biggest clubs separated in their own rich boys playground, a product for people that love top level football, best vs the best (Cue the FS breakdown) leave them to it & the Asian, Middle East, American, etc markets. 

- Domestic leagues downsizing and becoming more focused on local fanbases, returning domestic football at least in part to its working class roots in an affordable product for remaining clubs. 

- Domestic leagues becoming more competitive because most of the rich tourist clubs aren't there & hopefully a bit more about the sport than corporate greed. 

- The Champions League still existing for the winners & best performers in domestic leagues, completely separate from the European Super League. 

You say it kills the dream, for me if it was done right and they were left to do their own thing, the European football dream would be alive and well for many other clubs left in more fan focused, domestic 

It's not like you to defend your position so vigorously Baz. You normally just put your hands up and say sorry guys I got this one wrong. 😂 

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23 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

Baz, as always you're heading of at tangents but, as requested, I read the bit in bold and I think it's where you're in missing what has actually happened. The reason this was overturned was because even those six English clubs are entrenched in their local (loose term) community. It hasn't been the fans in Asia, Middle East or America that have overturned this, it's the more local fans.....they're not interested in playing the other wealthy teams at the expense of not playing in their domestic leagues.  I don't think the clubs were overly worried about what Burnley fans, St Mirren fans or any others think, it was the reaction of their "own" fans that has overturned this and the victory is theirs. On that basis the rest of your "wishlist" falls flat.

For me I think it's quite telling that there was a complete divide between the club decision makers in the richest league in the world (EPL) and the other clubs trying to persist with it in some format. For me the backdown, while in part obviously due to fan reaction, is out of a lot of fear of losing the EPL $$$ as well. 

Bowing to fan pressure doesn't make this a fan win for me though. I get what people are saying, I just don't think celebrating this status quo remaining should be considered any sort of win. Maybe a good analogy is someone telling a criminal that their death row date is being moved forward a years then backtracking on it... Football fans are still on death row in the current format IMO. 

The Wishlist is definitely idealistic but a Super League would certainly be a step forward for some form of it coming true. Oh well, back to the big boys and their influence dominating top league & European football we go. 

Edited by bazil85

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13 minutes ago, portmahomack saint said:

It's not like you to defend your position so vigorously Baz. You normally just put your hands up and say sorry guys I got this one wrong. 😂 

But I didn't get anything wrong, it's a matter of opinion, not who's right or who's wrong. The defending (as usual) comes from a small number of people that can't accept contrasting opinion. There is nothing "wrong" about supporting the formation of a new football competition. 

Regardless, I will always put my hand-up when wrong, something pretty rare on here in my experience. 👍

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20 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

But I didn't get anything wrong, it's a matter of opinion, not who's right or who's wrong. The defending (as usual) comes from a small number of people that can't accept contrasting opinion. There is nothing "wrong" about supporting the formation of a new football competition

Regardless, I will always put my hand-up when wrong, something pretty rare on here in my experience. 👍

How can it be a competition if those founder clubs in the ESL cannot be relegated?

How can it be a fair competition when no matter where these founder clubs finish in their domestic league they still are guaranteed ESL financial benefits?

Admit it Baz. You are wrong in your opinion. The ESL is a Franchise Football model that is not welcomed by any fans and players in this country who have a modicum of common sense and integrity.

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3 hours ago, oaksoft said:

IMO, there should be significant fines imposed on the clubs - distributed down the leagues to grassroots football, perhaps 25 point deductions as well for the start of next season and maybe the owners will face direct sanctions including forcing them to sell many of their shares. A message needs sending out to ensure this never happens again.

:unsure: Good job they don't have to listen to your opinion.   Some are already up to their eyeballs in debt, hence their reason for the super league. Glad common sense prevailed.  For now. 

As for the points deductions.  Wouldn't that be punishing the supporters as much as the clubs.   Besides how can you punish clubs for a non event.

 

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18 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

For me I think it's quite telling that there was a complete divide between the club decision makers in the richest league in the world (EPL) and the other clubs trying to persist with it in some format. For me the backdown, while in part obviously due to fan reaction, is out of a lot of fear of losing the EPL $$$ as well. 

Bowing to fan pressure doesn't make this a fan win for me though. I get what people are saying, I just don't think celebrating this status quo remaining should be considered any sort of win. Maybe a good analogy is someone telling a criminal that their death row date is being moved forward a years then backtracking on it... Football fans are still on death row in the current format IMO. 

The Wishlist is definitely idealistic but a Super League would certainly be a step forward for some form of it coming true. Oh well, back to the big boys and their influence dominating top league & European football we go. 

You're solution to your first paragraph earlier was for the "breakaway" clubs to rely on the emerging markets rather than their traditional local market....on that basis they wouldn't need to worry about the EPL ££. yet have back-tracked from the breakaway. That decision appears to be based on the fact that their traditional support base was vehemently against the proposed breakaway.

In your second paragraph that fans overturning a decision isn't a win for the fans because you think different....that is startlingly arrogant, similar to you suggesting in an earlier post that I agree with you about certain things you were saying in your initial post, for clarification....I don't, this is absolutely a fan win.

The wishlist for you may be idealistic but for the vast majority, it would seem, it's horrific.

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13 minutes ago, Slash said:

How can it be a competition if those founder clubs in the ESL cannot be relegated?

How can it be a fair competition when no matter where these founder clubs finish in their domestic league they still are guaranteed ESL financial benefits?

Admit it Baz. You are wrong in your opinion. The ESL is a Franchise Football model that is not welcomed by any fans and players in this country who have a modicum of common sense and integrity.

It's a competition between the big boy tourist clubs, let them have their rich boys club and anyone not interest, work on the remaining domestic & European competitions being as competitive and entertaining as they can be. 

I think a lot of people are looking at the ESL as a replacement when it isn't, it's another option. If you don't like it, watch pyramid competitive football & the remaining Champions League. Competitive football isn't removed with the ESL, certain teams are and they aren't important to me regarding domestic football, they clearly are for you which is fine, it's your view. 

Admit it Slash, it's a matter of opinion. I remain all for a breakaway European league & hope something more practical and better thought out comes of this. Not everyone is going to agree with your views, get over yourself and allow other opinions to exist. 👍

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12 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

You're solution to your first paragraph earlier was for the "breakaway" clubs to rely on the emerging markets rather than their traditional local market....on that basis they wouldn't need to worry about the EPL ££. yet have back-tracked from the breakaway. That decision appears to be based on the fact that their traditional support base was vehemently against the proposed breakaway.

In your second paragraph that fans overturning a decision isn't a win for the fans because you think different....that is startlingly arrogant, similar to you suggesting in an earlier post that I agree with you about certain things you were saying in your initial post, for clarification....I don't, this is absolutely a fan win.

The wishlist for you may be idealistic but for the vast majority, it would seem, it's horrific.

They wanted their cake and to eat it, there is no backtracking here. Emerging markets and the lucrative EPL money, they wanted both. There are a lot of moving parts in football right now, just because I move on to talk about one, doesn't mean I think the other has stopped existing. 

No it's not, it's just my opinion. I think modern day (especially elite) football shafts fans, European Super League aside, there has been much grumbling from fans about the price of football & corporate greed for decades, that doesn't go away because a proposal lives and dies in two days. As with above comment, you will also have to accept my opinion is different or present something that changes it (no one has so far).  

Do you not agreed any part of football is overpriced and detrimental to your average fan for corporate greed, because that's what I was talking about? Surely you see that is why the Champions League isn't just for Champions & why there will now be an invite part to Champions League participation. 

Can I ask why it's horrific? What have you got against more competitive, affordable domestic football? Is it just that the big clubs are the most important part of football to you in these leagues?  

As with so many topics on BAWA, this is following a similar path, I give my opinions, people don't like them and we argue because I refuse to backdown because there's no real attempt to change my view, just to snipe. We're probably minutes away from "That's why some don't engage with you posts." 

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33 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

They wanted their cake and to eat it, there is no backtracking here. Their fans didn't and they had to backtrack. Emerging markets and the lucrative EPL money, they wanted both. Their fans didn't and they had to backtrack. There are a lot of moving parts in football right now, just because I move on to talk about one, doesn't mean I think the other has stopped existing. 

No it's not, it's just my opinion. You said it wasn't a win for the fans, it was as they forced their clubs to backtrack. Whether you agree with their reasoning, opinion or thoughts they forced their clubs to backtrack and is therefore a win for the fans of the teams involved. I think modern day (especially elite) football shafts fans, European Super League aside, there has been much grumbling from fans about the price of football & corporate greed for decades, that doesn't go away because a proposal lives and dies in two days. As with above comment, you will also have to accept my opinion is different or present something that changes it (no one has so far).  

Do you not agreed any part of football is overpriced and detrimental to your average fan for corporate greed, because that's what I was talking about? Surely you see that is why the Champions League isn't just for Champions & why there will now be an invite part to Champions League participation. Irrelevant to the conversation we were having, the fans forced the clubs to backtrack because they wanted domestic competition that allowed proper qualification for European competitions.

Can I ask why it's horrific? What have you got against more competitive, affordable domestic football? Is it just that the big clubs are the most important part of football to you in these leagues?  The fans of the clubs involved don't want to go to your European Utopia, they want be able to support their clubs in traditional models....my opinion is neither here nor there it's what the fans of the clubs involved want that really matters.

As with so many topics on BAWA, this is following a similar path, I give my opinions, people don't like them and we argue because I refuse to backdown because there's no real attempt to change my view, just to snipe. We're probably minutes away from "That's why some don't engage with you posts." 

Baz, my whole point is that it's about the fans of the clubs involved that counts. The club and fan protection model in Germany is why this whole thing is a non-starter for a true European giant in Bayern Munich or a slightly smaller Dortmund. In other threads you go on about supporting fan ownership (SMiSA) and that club's should be for the fans (on this point our opinions on how this should work and be administered may differ but we probably agree on the sentiment) but on your ESL issue you seem to want it to go ahead despite the fact that the fans of the club's involved don't want it....in my book that is hypocrisy.

As you say Baz this will probably follow a familiar path and one that ends up going way off topic and in "ever decreasing circles", I'll save the rest the pain.

 

Edited by WeeBud

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7 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

Baz, my whole point is that it's about the fans of the clubs involved that counts. The club and fan protection model in Germany is why this whole thing is a non-starter for a true European giant in Bayern Munich or a slightly smaller Dortmund. In other threads you go on about supporting fan ownership (SMiSA) and that club's should be for the fans (on this point our opinions on how this should work and be administered may differ but we probably agree on the sentiment) but on your ESL issue you seem to want it to go ahead despite the fact that the fans of the club's involved don't want it....in my book that is hypocrisy.

As you say Baz this will probably follow a familiar path and one that ends up going way off topic and in "ever decreasing circles", I'll save the rest the pain.

 

I get the fan backlash and that it has fallen apart, for me it's because of the monumental cock-up in how it has been handled. There should have been far more fan engagement, there should have been far more preparation and stakeholder discussion before a bunch of rich people saying "this is what's happening" For me that is separate from the fundamental idea which I personally agree would be best for football (if handled properly which again it has not been).

I think maybe I am not making my self clear that as much as I am in favour of the proposal, I understand completely the backlash and why it has caused clubs to backtrack. They are separate stances but in no way contradictory or "wrong" as as been said. If you disagree fine, no issue with other opinions. 

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