Hendo Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, munoz said: https://wpcluster.dctdigital.com/thecourier/fp/sport/1790077/dundee-united-jason-leitch-covid-19-photo/ Now old Leitchy has waded in, it'll be interesting to see how they deal with this. Thats the problem when they start off with heavy punishments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 20 minutes ago, Slarti said: POSSIBLY caught the virus as a result. They caught the virus but nobody can definitely say where or when. That is what a lot of people are commenting about. The decision was made on some assumptions, not just facts. There is no proof of that. Nobody is denying we broke the guidelines. If the "crime" is breaking the guidelines and not postponing games then DU should be punished whether or not they play (if that picture is real). What if Livi win 4-0, will that be changed to 3-0? How would that be any sort of punishment? If the "crime" is postponing a game after breaking the guidelines then clubs will just get a team on the pitch any way they can (which, in an extreme example, could result in an injured player playing and getting permanently crocked). I predict that is what will happen from now on as clubs will not want to chance an investigation. We broke the rules and deserve to be punished but I really don't think that this has been thought through properly. A precedent has now been set, let's see how it plays out for the rest of the season and whether they stick to it regardless of who it is. All this utter shite about facts, ok, their is a strong possibility others caught the virus due to to not following the rules. Possibly, maybe, no proof...................the 15 page document indicates clearly indicates the practices we carried out we are culpable, suck it up. Isn't anybody capable of making an informed decision these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delpierro Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 No they don't and they aren't. You know I've had issues with the constant "rule changes" as they are inconsistent and blatantly disproportionate but WE fcuked them up. The club have stupidly been lax in adhering to them, people CAUGHT the virus as a result. How'd it sit if someone died? Oh yes they do, OH YES THEY DO!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 Just now, delpierro said: 1 hour ago, faraway saint said: No they don't and they aren't. You know I've had issues with the constant "rule changes" as they are inconsistent and blatantly disproportionate but WE fcuked them up. The club have stupidly been lax in adhering to them, people CAUGHT the virus as a result. How'd it sit if someone died? Oh yes they do, OH YES THEY DO!!!! ^^^^^^ Drunk again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 All this utter shite about facts, ok, their is a strong possibility others caught the virus due to to not following the rules. Possibly, maybe, no proof...................the 15 page document indicates clearly indicates the practices we carried out we are culpable, suck it up. Isn't anybody capable of making an informed decision these days. [emoji38]Yep, I said we broke the guidelines and deserve to be punished. I don't think anyone is arguing against that.However, without looking at each individual's behaviour over the prior few weeks there is no way of even attributing a probability to whether the breaking of the rules caused the infections, yet both clubs get punished for postponements.What needs to be made clear is what part of the punishment was for breaking the guidelines and what part was for postponing the games "as a result" of breaking the guidelines. The latter is what can't be proven.I suspect that we will just suck it up and get on with it, but it doesn't make it right. What happens if, at season's end, Motherwell beat Hibs to a European place by less than six points and Ross County get relegated after finishing less than three points behind Accies. Neither of those clubs, AFAWK, have broken any rules but could end up losing out. As I've said, this hasn't been thought through properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendo Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 20 minutes ago, faraway saint said: All this utter shite about facts, ok, their is a strong possibility others caught the virus due to to not following the rules. Possibly, maybe, no proof...................the 15 page document indicates clearly indicates the practices we carried out we are culpable, suck it up. Isn't anybody capable of making an informed decision these days. Do you work in health and safety? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 1 minute ago, Slarti said: Yep, I said we broke the guidelines and deserve to be punished. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. However, without looking at each individual's behaviour over the prior few weeks there is no way of even attributing a probability to whether the breaking of the rules caused the infections, yet both clubs get punished for postponements. What needs to be made clear is what part of the punishment was for breaking the guidelines and what part was for postponing the games "as a result" of breaking the guidelines. The latter is what can't be proven. I suspect that we will just suck it up and get on with it, but it doesn't make it right. What happens if, at season's end, Motherwell beat Hibs to a European place by less than six points and Ross County get relegated after finishing less than three points behind Accies. Neither of those clubs, AFAWK, have broken any rules but could end up losing out. As I've said, this hasn't been thought through properly. Some are, but are focusing on other unknown matters and fantasies about other teams, such is the obsession about other teams. As for the "punishment", it is what it is, we wouldn't have been here of we hadn't fcuked up. I'm sure it has been thought through properly or the authorities wouldn't have made this decision. I'd think they know more than any dafties on a football forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, Hendo said: Do you work in health and safety? I have a daft health and safety qualification, but I tend to use common sense. Thanks for asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doakes Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 7 hours ago, faraway saint said: It's not, it's for a club blatantly ignoring the SPFL rules and, seemingly, club rules. Stunning that no one was strong enough to challenge the actions that have led us to this point. Rules that only come to light if your fixture isn’t fulfilled. Meaning squad size is a very important factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, Doakes said: Rules that only come to light if your fixture isn’t fulfilled. Meaning squad size is a very important factor. So, you're trying to say, simply, that a club, as usual the Old Firm, with more players gets preferential treatment? Unbelievable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doakes Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, faraway saint said: So, you're trying to say, simply, that a club, as usual the Old Firm, with more players gets preferential treatment? Unbelievable. Hard to believe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 17 pages, been well discussed, back to the football for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookie Monster Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 Do you work in health and safety?That could explain how he has so much time during the day to post as much. [emoji6] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 If i and others were speeding on the motorway, i wouldn't be moaning if i was the only one that got caught and punished. I broke the rules, got caught and got punished. If others get away with it, so be it. Instead of being angry at the SPFL, our anger should be toward the staff at our club for being idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 Boooooooooooooooooo to the Club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FPA Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 54 minutes ago, Tommy said: If i and others were speeding on the motorway, i wouldn't be moaning if i was the only one that got caught and punished. I broke the rules, got caught and got punished. If others get away with it, so be it. Instead of being angry at the SPFL, our anger should be toward the staff at our club for being idiots. I get the analogy, but not sure it stacks up when you're talking about a football league with 12 teams in it. You can't really have the rules (whatever they are) being applied on some kind of discretionary basis in this context or the whole thing becomes a farce. The SPFL have set a precedent of sorts here which they will need to stick to. To be fair, there is plenty of frustration being directed towards the club and the board - and rightly so. None more so I suspect than from JG and the players who lose most out of this. If there were procedures to be followed which were not then it goes without saying that these needs to be reviewed, and it sounds like they are. That should not be in dispute and I don't think it is, for the most part. What is also understandable though is the frustration towards the SPFL. There is a general sense that they have felt the need to hammer a couple of clubs in this particular instance by dishing out defeats when the time felt right to them. The fact that we are being lambasted in the report for not sitting two metres apart at a table, for example, while the wider Scottish football public and authorities overlook (/ celebrate) the likes of the Davie Marshall Scotland team conga just sums up how obscure the whole situation is. Anyway, onwards to this afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 I get the analogy, but not sure it stacks up when you're talking about a football league with 12 teams in it. You can't really have the rules (whatever they are) being applied on some kind of discretionary basis in this context or the whole thing becomes a farce. The SPFL have set a precedent of sorts here which they will need to stick to. To be fair, there is plenty of frustration being directed towards the club and the board - and rightly so. None more so I suspect than from JG and the players who lose most out of this. If there were procedures to be followed which were not then it goes without saying that these needs to be reviewed, and it sounds like they are. That should not be in dispute and I don't think it is, for the most part. What is also understandable though is the frustration towards the SPFL. There is a general sense that they have felt the need to hammer a couple of clubs in this particular instance by dishing out defeats when the time felt right to them. The fact that we are being lambasted in the report for not sitting two metres apart at a table, for example, while the wider Scottish football public and authorities overlook (/ celebrate) the likes of the Davie Marshall Scotland team conga just sums up how obscure the whole situation is. Anyway, onwards to this afternoon. SPFL had no say over the international team. It's the SFA that runs them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanb Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 JG gave an interview in the recent BAWA magazine in part talking of the COVID issues Possibly laying the case for the future defence, Ralston is their protected bubble and once players are off campus then hard to mitigate. A case was where a player tested positive after seeming to get infected via his mother who worked as a carer Also tries to highlight flaws in the testing process. Once twice a week on Monday and Thursday then told by SPFL to reduce the test to Monday only due to costs. As a test only proves how you are on that day, when Saturday comes, who knows if you are possibly +be by then. Changes made in line with advice at Ralston and outsourcing catering too but was still not enough so wonder why ? Could be complacent or naive, maybe even just bad luck but lessons were not learned after initial infections and the keeper crisis Onward and upwards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted December 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 2 hours ago, FPA said: I get the analogy, but not sure it stacks up when you're talking about a football league with 12 teams in it. You can't really have the rules (whatever they are) being applied on some kind of discretionary basis in this context or the whole thing becomes a farce. The SPFL have set a precedent of sorts here which they will need to stick to. To be fair, there is plenty of frustration being directed towards the club and the board - and rightly so. None more so I suspect than from JG and the players who lose most out of this. If there were procedures to be followed which were not then it goes without saying that these needs to be reviewed, and it sounds like they are. That should not be in dispute and I don't think it is, for the most part. What is also understandable though is the frustration towards the SPFL. There is a general sense that they have felt the need to hammer a couple of clubs in this particular instance by dishing out defeats when the time felt right to them. The fact that we are being lambasted in the report for not sitting two metres apart at a table, for example, while the wider Scottish football public and authorities overlook (/ celebrate) the likes of the Davie Marshall Scotland team conga just sums up how obscure the whole situation is. Anyway, onwards to this afternoon. Like the Hearts relegation, the SPFL (the organisation created by and for the clubs) has, rather than be flexible and understanding in a crisis) interpreted the rules of the clubs own organisation in a manner that hurts its participants and is likely to come back and bite them. I was disgusted when Spartans had Saints punished due to playing youth players on the pitch thus offering them opportunity to learn and progress - rather than having them warm a bench; I was disgusted when Hearts Partick and Thistle were so heavily penalised - relegated halfway through a season when each of them could well have turned it round; I'm disgusted again by the level of punishment meted out to our beloved diddy club in this pandemic.. I'm getting less and less interested in Scottish fitba. What's the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callum Gilhooley Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 On 12/4/2020 at 9:25 AM, God of war said: Hate this grassing and dicipline people. Mistakes were mate and you learn and move on. People's jobs, livelihoods at stake, ffs wouldnt want u in my corner. Whats Dicipline ? oh, and i have no desire to be anywhere with you, far less your corner . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original 59er Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 ok, I somewhat suspect that the chances of having the penalties rescinded are next to zero, but there will be a general feeling of being totally pi**ed off circulating the club, both inside and out. If the Manager ever needed anything to gee the players up and to get them to knuckle down and show the high heid yins what we are made of, then this is the perfect background. So JG, here is one very large excuse to get them going out there and show them all up, tell them it's a great injustice and that we will not be brow beaten! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Ayrshire Saints said: 17 hours ago, stlucifer said: It's nothing to do with "what". Are you so simple you can't read? It's about "HOW" the players caught the virus. No one can say for certain the flaunting of the rules caused the outbreak so the SPFL, given they punished us and killie because we couldn't fulfil our commitment, have inflicted the punishment on an assumption. Not a fact. The cause of the outbreak is totally irrelevant. We were not punished for having cases of C19 that's almost a given. We didn't follow the protocol designed to prevent the spread once a positive case was identified. Whether the spread was directly attributed to the breach is again irrelevant. Not really sure what people can't grasp here. All member clubs signed up to follow defined protocols. Saints for reasons so far not explained decided not to and a consequence of that was we were unable to fulfill 2 fixtures. People unwilling to accept we did wrong even after the club plead guilty is just bizarre. No matter how stupid anyone thinks the rules are, we as a club agreed to abide by those rules. We didn't, the club got caught, we then admitted that at an enquiry and have been punished. They didn't sign up to be punished because some of their staff gt ill though. The punishment for not following procedure is correct. The fine, suspended or otherwise, is justifiable. Forfeiting two games for not having enough players is not. IF the losses were because of "not following procedure" then, even if you agree with losing a game because of it, which I think is ludicrous, then, in that case, we have been punished twice for one occurrence while Killie have been punished one game. No matter how you look at it, it's idiotic. Edited December 5, 2020 by stlucifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Callum Gilhooley said: Whats Dicipline ? oh, and i have no desire to be anywhere with you, far less your corner . Good cause im no wanting grasses or snitches in mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mid Calder Saint Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 Points should be won or lost on the football pitch what about so-called sporting integrity listening to the Motherwell and Hamilton managers today makes me sick to the core They didn't sign up to be punished because some of their staff gt ill though. The punishment for not following procedure is correct. The fine, suspended or otherwise, is justifiable. Forfeiting two games for not having enough players is not. IF the losses were because of "not following procedure" then, even if you agree with losing a game because of it, which I think is ludicrous, then, in that case, we have been punished twice for one occurrence while Killie have been punished one game. No matter how you look at it, it's idiotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desperately Seeking Susans Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 I don't know if this has been mentioned but Motherwell's benefit has meant innocent Dundee Utd has been penalised by dropping a place. The whole thing is a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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