The Falklands War 40th Anniversary

[antrin]

An enlightening/interesting “codicil” to yesterday’s comments:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/14/declassified-files-reveal-british-interest-in-falkland-islands-oil

[W6er]

On 6/13/2022 at 11:02 AM, beyond our ken said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_in_Argentina

From your article:

 

Quote

Argentina has a total population of 40 million. The Additional Survey on Indigenous Populations, published by the National Institute for Statistics and Census, gives a total of 600,329 people who see themselves as descending from or belonging to indigenous people.

I think they should concentrate on getting their Argentinian land back...

[beyond our ken]

7 minutes ago, W6er said:

From your article:

 

I think they should concentrate on getting their Argentinian land back...

I’m sure they will listen to you

 

 

[W6er]

On 6/13/2022 at 12:35 PM, antrin said:

1.  What relevance (other than you posting drivel) does your comment have to what I wrote?

2.  I used and island off the coast o Britain as an example.  I should have considered the hard of thinking when I posted that. My apologies.  Should I have used the island of Gibraltar as its disputed ownership is in the same ball park as Malvinas?

3.  The first settlement established on Malvinas was French.

At various times, the islands have had French, British, Spanish, and Argentine settlements. Britain reasserted its rule in 1833, but Argentina maintains its claim to the islands.

 

it was and has been a disputed territory pretty much since it was sighted by Europeans - there is little legitimacy or morality underpinning UK’s maintenance of far flung outposts of Empire.

If you cannot understand why an island three miles off the English coast is not comparable to an archipelago 300 miles of the Argentinian coast, then there is absolutely no point is discussing this further with you.

By your own admission, Britain has been in control of the islands for almost two hundred years. How many generations is that, that have lived on the Falklands under British rule? 

Here's an idea, why not let the inhabitants of the Falklands decide their fate? Oh, we already have done...and here's the result:

Quote

The people of the Falkland Islands have voted overwhelmingly in favour of remaining a UK overseas territory.

Of 1,517 votes cast in the two-day referendum - on a turnout of more than 90% - 1,513 were in favour, while just three votes were against.

 

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21750909

 

As for @Rascal's comment about imperial powers, well that's human nature. Since civilisations began you have had dominant powers, from the Mongols and Han Chinese, to the Babylonians, Persians, Athenians, Macedonians, Ottomans and many more. What matters now is what the people of the Falklands want, and I think that's unambiguously clear. It's 1,517 versus 3.  

Edited June 14, 2022 by W6er

[Rascal]

15 minutes ago, W6er said:

If you cannot understand why an island three miles off the English coast is not comparable to an archipelago 300 miles of the Argentinian coast, then there is absolutely no point is discussing this further with you.

By your own admission, Britain has been in control of the islands for almost two hundred years. How many generations is that, that have lived on the Falklands under British rule? 

Here's an idea, why not let the inhabitants of the Falklands decide their fate? Oh, we already have done...and here's the result:

 

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21750909

 

As for @Rascal's comment about imperial powers, well that's human nature. Since civilisations began you have had dominant powers, from the Mongols and Han Chinese, to the Babylonians, Persians, Athenians, Macedonians, Ottomans and many more. What matters now is what the people of the Falklands want, and I think that's unambiguously clear. It's 1,517 versus 3.  

W6er. I don’t disagree that the UK followed a long line of states with imperial ambitions. Part of human nature to exploit economic or military strength but that doesn’t make it a good thing. To be clear about the actual veterans involved in conflicts, I feel for all of those involved whichever side they belonged too. As to The Falklands Islands People, I guess they had as much choice as the people in the Dombas Will have as to their loyalty. Maybe a bit harsh.

[W6er]

1 minute ago, Rascal said:

W6er. I don’t disagree that the UK followed a long line of states with imperial ambitions. Part of human nature to exploit economic or military strength but that doesn’t make it a good thing. To be clear about the actual veterans involved in conflicts, I feel for all of those involved whichever side they belonged too. As to The Falklands Islands People, I guess they had as much choice as the people in the Dombas Will have as to their loyalty. Maybe a bit harsh.

How many new territories have the British claimed in the last fifty years? We have more recently done the opposite, we have relinquished territories, and I think one of the last was Kenya in the 1960s.

What you're referring to is an imperialistic policy that we abandoned long ago, around the same time as we sent children up chimneys, press-ganged men into the Royal Navy, executed people publicly, and flogged criminals. What matters in the people of the Falklands, and I have no doubt about the legitimacy of the referendum.

As for the people of the Donbas, I think you should read this:

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf

 

[Rascal]

7 minutes ago, W6er said:

How many new territories have the British claimed in the last fifty years? We have more recently done the opposite, we have relinquished territories, and I think one of the last was Kenya in the 1960s.

What you're referring to is an imperialistic policy that we abandoned long ago, around the same time as we sent children up chimneys, press-ganged men into the Royal Navy, executed people publicly, and flogged criminals. What matters in the people of the Falklands, and I have no doubt about the legitimacy of the referendum.

As for the people of the Donbas, I think you should read this:

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf

 

W6er. When I was at school in the 50’s and early 60’s the map of the world was one third red , signifying British Rule. We had “insurgences “ and/or terrorists ungrateful enough to fight for their freedom. We were, like the others you mentioned, there for our own good, not in the role of philanthropists. In South Africa , for example, people will tell you that the Brits opened the worlds first concentration camps. In Ireland , we artificially and deliberately altered the composition of the popular to engineer “loyalty”. We used every trick in the Conquering Empire Playbook. You are right though, those days are gone (but not forgotten in the countries involved). I did say I was being a bit harsh by comparing the Donbas and The Falkland Islands. I haven’t visited The Falkland Islands but I have visited Ukraine and the Donbas territory a number of times. There are strong Russian ties in Donbas. Language being one. The Russians naturally changed the language in schools etc just as the Brits did in the Empire. A move as old as time. Slightly different point: I stayed in a Palace in Western Poland. The Aristocrat who’s family owned it in the past had been invited back and given grants to refurbish the place whilst his cousin was enticed back to open Europe’s largest pony farm. The point they each made was that behind the scenes the same people stayed in charge.  I suspect that were I in the Falklands then I would like to stay in charge and give out the goodies.

[W6er]

1 hour ago, Rascal said:

W6er. When I was at school in the 50’s and early 60’s the map of the world was one third red , signifying British Rule. We had “insurgences “ and/or terrorists ungrateful enough to fight for their freedom. We were, like the others you mentioned, there for our own good, not in the role of philanthropists. In South Africa , for example, people will tell you that the Brits opened the worlds first concentration camps. In Ireland , we artificially and deliberately altered the composition of the popular to engineer “loyalty”. We used every trick in the Conquering Empire Playbook. You are right though, those days are gone (but not forgotten in the countries involved). I did say I was being a bit harsh by comparing the Donbas and The Falkland Islands. I haven’t visited The Falkland Islands but I have visited Ukraine and the Donbas territory a number of times. There are strong Russian ties in Donbas. Language being one. The Russians naturally changed the language in schools etc just as the Brits did in the Empire. A move as old as time. Slightly different point: I stayed in a Palace in Western Poland. The Aristocrat who’s family owned it in the past had been invited back and given grants to refurbish the place whilst his cousin was enticed back to open Europe’s largest pony farm. The point they each made was that behind the scenes the same people stayed in charge.  I suspect that were I in the Falklands then I would like to stay in charge and give out the goodies.

 

Obviously the British Empire did bad things, but by the 1950s and '60s, most of the Empire had gone. Off the top of my head I'm sure Paelstine became Israel in 1947 and India gained her independence the same year.  

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by W6er

[Rascal]

5 minutes ago, W6er said:

 

Obviously the British Empire did bad things, but by the 1950s and '60s, most of the Empire had gone. Off the top of my head I'm sure Paelstine became Israel in 1947 and India gained her independence the same year.  

 

MacMillan’s speech titled”Winds of Change” was a milestone 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_of_Change_(speech)

Edited June 14, 2022 by Rascal

[ALBIONSAINT]

3 hours ago, W6er said:

 

Obviously the British Empire did bad things, but by the 1950s and '60s, most of the Empire had gone. Off the top of my head I'm sure Paelstine became Israel in 1947 and India gained her independence the same year.  

 

Too be balanced, it also did some good things (although I hate the binary aspect of good and bad) The British brought education, law and order and administration to parts of the world which continued to use our systems after we left. I am not a royalist and don’t particularly feel that British, however it’s hard to deny that the British empire (Scots and all) brought more benefit to a lot of the people of these countries in the long run. 

[exiledfan]

21 hours ago, antrin said:

like Thatcher, The Buffoon is currently wishing that similar war-mongering cam be a distraction from his ineptitude and corruption.

 

Big difference is that this bufoon doesn't have the balls to do anything about attrocities happening somewhere as close to us as the Canaries.

[ALBIONSAINT]

16 minutes ago, exiledfan said:

Big difference is that this bufoon doesn't have the balls to do anything about attrocities happening somewhere as close to us as the Canaries.

What’s happening in the Canaries? I am off to Lanzarote soon. 

[exiledfan]

1 minute ago, ALBIONSAINT said:

What’s happening in the Canaries? I am off to Lanzarote soon. 

Invaded by folk in Union jack's shouting Engurland 

[faraway saint]

4 minutes ago, exiledfan said:

Invaded by folk in Union jack's shouting Engurland 

Think you've had one too many tonight. 🙈

[faraway saint]

10 minutes ago, ALBIONSAINT said:

What’s happening in the Canaries? I am off to Lanzarote soon. 

I was going to ask but he's on a run of posts, almost as if he comes from Stirling, getting more bizarre by the minute, thought it safe not to bother. 

[W6er]

47 minutes ago, ALBIONSAINT said:

Too be balanced, it also did some good things (although I hate the binary aspect of good and bad) The British brought education, law and order and administration to parts of the world which continued to use our systems after we left. I am not a royalist and don’t particularly feel that British, however it’s hard to deny that the British empire (Scots and all) brought more benefit to a lot of the people of these countries in the long run. 

No, you're absolutely correct. The railway system, sports (Indians for example love cricket) and Western medicine, too. There are things like this, too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_Infanticide_Prevention_Act,_1870

 

[antrin]

2 hours ago, exiledfan said:

Big difference is that this bufoon doesn't have the balls to do anything about attrocities happening somewhere as close to us as the Canaries.

1 hour ago, ALBIONSAINT said:

What’s happening in the Canaries? I am off to Lanzarote soon. 

Lanzarote in particular, but also the other isles, have been rescuing hundreds of boat people crossing from Sahara, almost daily.  A big concern but more humanity being shown than we do, especially for the numbers of children.

 

It’s a big crossing.  If you don’t nudge an island… you go on, and on….   into the depths of the Atlantic.

 

[ALBIONSAINT]

4 minutes ago, antrin said:

Lanzarote in particular, but also the other isles, have been rescuing hundreds of boat people crossing from Sahara, almost daily.  A big concern but more humanity being shown than we do, especially for the numbers of children.

 

It’s a big crossing.  If you don’t nudge an island… you go on, and on….   into the depths of the Atlantic.

 

We are literally and metaphorically throwing life belts to the African people, would it not be wiser to stop them falling in upstream? These are all young people who are the future of there countries, I think it would be better to help the African nations to develop economically so they can keep there own citizens? 

[antrin]

8 minutes ago, ALBIONSAINT said:

We are literally and metaphorically throwing life belts to the African people, would it not be wiser to stop them falling in upstream? These are all young people who are the future of there countries, I think it would be better to help the African nations to develop economically so they can keep there own citizens? 

I totally agree.  Most people would prefer to stay with their ain folk.  So many broken countries and societies in Africa, that people will continue to try to escape..

We just don’t have moral, intelligent leaders - or newspapers that tell the truth.  Or other media outlets
 

C4 news tries to inform us, most nights there’s a bleak review from some shithole whose inhabitants will quit, if possible.

UK, being further diminished and impoverished, will never be leaders in helping poorer countries.

it's a shite situation.

[ALBIONSAINT]

8 hours ago, Rascal said:

W6er. When I was at school in the 50’s and early 60’s the map of the world was one third red , signifying British Rule. We had “insurgences “ and/or terrorists ungrateful enough to fight for their freedom. We were, like the others you mentioned, there for our own good, not in the role of philanthropists. In South Africa , for example, people will tell you that the Brits opened the worlds first concentration camps. In Ireland , we artificially and deliberately altered the composition of the popular to engineer “loyalty”. We used every trick in the Conquering Empire Playbook. You are right though, those days are gone (but not forgotten in the countries involved). I did say I was being a bit harsh by comparing the Donbas and The Falkland Islands. I haven’t visited The Falkland Islands but I have visited Ukraine and the Donbas territory a number of times. There are strong Russian ties in Donbas. Language being one. The Russians naturally changed the language in schools etc just as the Brits did in the Empire. A move as old as time. Slightly different point: I stayed in a Palace in Western Poland. The Aristocrat who’s family owned it in the past had been invited back and given grants to refurbish the place whilst his cousin was enticed back to open Europe’s largest pony farm. The point they each made was that behind the scenes the same people stayed in charge.  I suspect that were I in the Falklands then I would like to stay in charge and give out the goodies.

A common myth.......it was actually a German working for the Spanish government 

 

[exiledfan]

2 hours ago, faraway saint said:

I was going to ask but he's on a run of posts, almost as if he comes from Stirling, getting more bizarre by the minute, thought it safe not to bother. 

My point being the war in Ukraine is 3300 km from the UK whilst Lanzarote is 4400 km from the UK. We have a war closer with atrocities happening closer to home than places folk will be off on holiday too.

With the waffle that comes out your keyboard I don't see how that warents me being labeled bizzare 🤷 

[faraway saint]

7 hours ago, exiledfan said:

My point being the war in Ukraine is 3300 km from the UK whilst Lanzarote is 4400 km from the UK. We have a war closer with atrocities happening closer to home than places folk will be off on holiday too.

With the waffle that comes out your keyboard I don't see how that warents me being labeled bizzare 🤷 

Don't forget this bit..................Invaded by folk in Union jack's shouting Engurland 

Aye, a great analogy. 

Bizarre doesn't cover it. 🤣

Edited June 15, 2022 by faraway saint

[exiledfan]

17 hours ago, faraway saint said:

Don't forget this bit..................Invaded by folk in Union jack's shouting Engurland 

Aye, a great analogy. 

Bizarre doesn't cover it. 🤣

It was a joke in the summer the canaries transcend into little England.

[faraway saint]

5 hours ago, exiledfan said:

It was a joke in the summer the canaries transcend into little England.

Do they? 

Sorry mate, not where I go, maybe you're getting mixed up with Benidorm? 

[antrin]

On 6/14/2022 at 11:38 PM, ALBIONSAINT said:

A common myth.......it was actually a German working for the Spanish government 

 

True… but only by a baw-hair, in terms of timing.  
 

Certainly nothing to be proud of, and we can’t say that a big German or Spanish boy did it and ran away…  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps

Edited June 16, 2022 by antrin