Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[exiledfan]

The buffoon is the reason it will happen!

Not great timing post covid, cost of living and Ukraine.

If SNP had given or 18 months more for Bojo and co to right royally f**k it and head into next election I think the timing would be better as the mess created will be easier to justify independence .

Now Bojo and his gimps will claim there is too much uncertainty and blame further inflation on uncertainty of the Union. 

[Scott-Leeds]

Scottish people voted against independence, but those for it still won’t accept the result

Similarly, the collective vote was to leave EU and remainers still won’t accept it

See, the theme is , 2 results were decisive and yet the argument seems to be ‘oh,well, lets not rest until we get our way’ from those who lost the vote

We having best of 3 or is 1-1 ok ?

[W6er]

15 minutes ago, Scott-Leeds said:

Scottish people voted against independence, but those for it still won’t accept the result

Similarly, the collective vote was to leave EU and remainers still won’t accept it

See, the theme is , 2 results were decisive and yet the argument seems to be ‘oh,well, lets not rest until we get our way’ from those who lost the vote

We having best of 3 or is 1-1 ok ?

Actually, when you exclude EU nationals and English people who voted predominantly against independence, you will fight there was possibly a majority of Scots who voted in favour of it.  

[Scott-Leeds]

Actually, when you exclude EU nationals and English people who voted predominantly against independence, you will fight there was possibly a majority of Scots who voted in favour of it.  

But, the vote was to stay in the union

No amount of word spin/stat spin changes it.

That’s my point, people struggle to accept democracy and democratic results

[faraway saint]

Just now, W6er said:

Actually, when you exclude EU nationals and English people who voted predominantly against independence, you will fight there was possibly a majority of Scots who voted in favour of it.  

Aye? 

So, discount sections of the voters and there you have it, turn a defeat into a victory. 

Heard it all now. 🤣

[Cumbriansaint72]

3 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Aye? 

So, discount sections of the voters and there you have it, turn a defeat into a victory. 

Heard it all now. 🤣

Now now😀

 

I could see the point before to an extent but not forgetting at the time of the independence vote some parties actually sang of the same hymn sheet to oppose the SNP which was undoubtedly their own undoing come the main election. Paisley was a 'red'  town for many years.

Just an opinion

[Rascal]

Scotland joined the Union through choice, admittedly very few people were involved in making the choice and it wasn’t the first attempt at creating a Union. I guess that it makes sense that in a much more democratic, modern Scotland that all of the people have an opportunity to decide their own future. Ps. Scotland and NI voted to stay in Europe. We had no right to veto and still don’t in our present Union but, as a separate country in Europe we would have that right. 

[bazil85]

35 minutes ago, Scott-Leeds said:

Scottish people voted against independence, but those for it still won’t accept the result

Similarly, the collective vote was to leave EU and remainers still won’t accept it

See, the theme is , 2 results were decisive and yet the argument seems to be ‘oh,well, lets not rest until we get our way’ from those who lost the vote

We having best of 3 or is 1-1 ok ?

Democracy doesn’t stand still. 

[stlucifer]

33 minutes ago, Scott-Leeds said:

Scottish people voted against independence, but those for it still won’t accept the result

Similarly, the collective vote was to leave EU and remainers still won’t accept it

See, the theme is , 2 results were decisive and yet the argument seems to be ‘oh,well, lets not rest until we get our way’ from those who lost the vote

We having best of 3 or is 1-1 ok ?

Suggesting Scots voted to remain is dubioous at best but, that notwithstanding, the fact is, collectively, the unionist parties fought the referendum on the claim that the ONLY way to stay in the EU was to remain in the union. That fact alone probably had a massive effect on the result given that EU nationals who were here temporarilly and english who would obviously vote for england to keep control. Though, going by anectodal evidence, the latter seems to be changing for a lot of them.

[Rascal]

2 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

Suggesting Scots voted to remain is dubioous at best but, that notwithstanding, the fact is, collectively, the unionist parties fought the referendum on the claim that the ONLY way to stay in the EU was to remain in the union. That fact alone probably had a massive effect on the result given that EU nationals who were here temporarilly and english who would obviously vote for england to keep control. Though, going by anectodal evidence, the latter seems to be changing for a lot of them.

Don’t forget THE VOW and DEVO MAX

[stlucifer]

1 minute ago, Rascal said:

Don’t forget THE VOW and DEVO MAX

The Vow LIE swung it from yes to no AFAIC.

ETA. I cannot bring myself to forgive Gordon Brown for his part.

Edited June 14, 2022 by stlucifer

[W6er]

1 hour ago, Scott-Leeds said:

But, the vote was to stay in the union

No amount of word spin/stat spin changes it.

That’s my point, people struggle to accept democracy and democratic results

 

1 hour ago, faraway saint said:

Aye? 

So, discount sections of the voters and there you have it, turn a defeat into a victory. 

Heard it all now. 🤣

I was replying specifically to the following claim, 'Scottish people voted against independence', which was factually incorrect. The people living in Scotland voted against independence.  

[Slarti]

Blasted in the ass from Westminster or blasted in the ass from Hollyrood? Either way I am getting an ass blasting! 

At least you will have a big cheesy grin then, either way.

Scottish people voted against independence, but those for it still won’t accept the result

Similarly, the collective vote was to leave EU and remainers still won’t accept it

Going by your logic, we should only ever have one General Election and stick with the result forever.

[antrin]

15 minutes ago, Slarti said:

Going by your logic, we should only ever have one General Election and stick with the result forever.

 

 

That’s how the basturt brexiteers view their purely “informative’ poll result.  It was a cheat and they’re sticking with it.  Not even an election whose result might have been more binding….

 

THAT ain’t over by a long chalk.

[beyond our ken]

9 hours ago, Scott-Leeds said:

But, the vote was to stay in the union

No amount of word spin/stat spin changes it.

That’s my point, people struggle to accept democracy and democratic results

well it is only being challenged via democratic channels, a great example of democracy in action

The problem is the broken state of the current union.  I would prefer a degree more federalism for all of the UK to promote fairness rather than to leave.  Unfortuantely, the UK electoral system id a bit like the division of power and resources in the SPFL.  The English political establishment holds sway beyond their own borders and are unlikely to offer a sensible solution to the current problem, even if it goes against their own best interests to do so.  We are better off IN if it is a properly constituted UK, but everyone outside of England is better off out of the current predicament.

Regarding timings, despite Sturgeon's best intentions, I don't think there will be a second referrenda before 2024 as Johnson will opt for an early UK election to derail the plans.  Given that the debate of the last indepence vote was framed from 2010 onwards alongside the changes that have occurred in the last 12 years across Europe, it seems that 2024 will be a fair and reasonable point in time to decide if events have justified the last result.  We actually have a reasonable referrence period to review, unlike in 2014

[Callum Gilhooley]

11 hours ago, Scott-Leeds said:

Scottish people voted against independence, but those for it still won’t accept the result

Similarly, the collective vote was to leave EU and remainers still won’t accept it

See, the theme is , 2 results were decisive and yet the argument seems to be ‘oh,well, lets not rest until we get our way’ from those who lost the vote

We having best of 3 or is 1-1 ok ?

Well if it’s best of three, it’s currently 1-1 in Scottish Indy votes .

in 2014 , OF those who turned out to vote a majority did vote stay , you are right . However , in 1979 a majority of those who turned out to vote voted leave .🤷‍♂️

However, the 1979 Indy vote rules were changed by the Tories with Labour support to say a total of at least 40% of those eligible to vote must vote leave- the figure reached was 32%.  Although a majority of those who voted said YES? 51.8% 

If those same rules were applied in the UK election , the last election would have seen the Tories with only 29.3 % vote of those eligible to vote . 
Seems big brother again can shift the rules to suit themselves.

 

[Callum Gilhooley]

As for the Brexit lie ?   Coz that’s what it was - a lie.  
I can speak from bitter experience , The business my trade does in N.I. ( Motor spares ) has been decimated , tariffs -despite being promised none, delays at ports - which we were promised none, vastly increased costs to ship to N.I again promised none !! All of this hits my business and my pocket while we watch as Eire make a m8 T shipping same day , no tariffs no extra admin no extra cost to the North.   
And don’t get me started on that £350 million 😡. They lied through their teeth - in my opinion I firmly believe if we knew then what we know now, the result would be massively different . 

[Wilbur]

13 hours ago, Scott-Leeds said:

Scottish people voted against independence, but those for it still won’t accept the result

Similarly, the collective vote was to leave EU and remainers still won’t accept it

See, the theme is , 2 results were decisive and yet the argument seems to be ‘oh,well, lets not rest until we get our way’ from those who lost the vote

We having best of 3 or is 1-1 ok ?

The voters in the 2016 independence referendum were told that the only chance of Scotland remaining in the EU was to remain part of the Union. That was a lie.

In the Brexit referendum the Scottish public voted to Remain. England dragged us out.

Scotland was cheated. Why should we be happy to accept a corrupt result ? 

We were lied to in 2016 and the present UK Government is Liars Inc. We are tied to these Tory liars because the people of England can't see through them. Ultimately English people are deciding who governs Scotland. That can't be right, can it ?

 

[antrin]

48 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

The voters in the 2016 independence referendum were told that the only chance of Scotland remaining in the EU was to remain part of the Union. That was a lie.

In the Brexit referendum the Scottish public voted to Remain. England dragged us out.

Scotland was cheated. Why should we be happy to accept a corrupt result ? 

We were lied to in 2016 and the present UK Government is Liars Inc. We are tied to these Tory liars because the people of England can't see through them. Ultimately English people are deciding who governs Scotland. That can't be right, can it ?

 

Almost true, but not…

London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle Wirral, Sefton and so on… and also NI voted to remain.  Scotland losing that democratic vote is nothing special.

if Scots votes were based on believing what they are TOLD by politicians, then they only have themselves to blame.  And it's not just English politicians who can be fuzzy with the truth.

[Slarti]

1 hour ago, Wilbur said:

The voters in the 2016 independence referendum were told that the only chance of Scotland remaining in the EU was to remain part of the Union. That was a lie.

In the Brexit referendum the Scottish public voted to Remain. England dragged us out.

Scotland was cheated. Why should we be happy to accept a corrupt result ? 

We were lied to in 2016 and the present UK Government is Liars Inc. We are tied to these Tory liars because the people of England can't see through them. Ultimately English people are deciding who governs Scotland. That can't be right, can it ?

 

You know me, I don't like being pernickety (), but it was 2014, not 2016, for the Indy Ref.  The Brexit vote was in 2016.

[lenziebud]

15 hours ago, Rascal said:

Don’t forget THE VOW and DEVO MAX

Be interesting what the vote would be if DEVO MAX option was on the ballot paper as a 3rd option. Wonder how many would vote for that ?

Other debate is whether 50% is correct bar for independence ?

[Rascal]

1 hour ago, antrin said:

Almost true, but not…

London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle Wirral, Sefton and so on… and also NI voted to remain.  Scotland losing that democratic vote is nothing special.

if Scots votes were based on believing what they are TOLD by politicians, then they only have themselves to blame.  And it's not just English politicians who can be fuzzy with the truth.

There is a difference Antrin. In both Scotland and NI there were (are) devolved governments. Apart from the downright lies and promises by the Brexiteers we had people vote on Ethnicity and Race. A terrible thing to have done.

[Rascal]

3 minutes ago, lenziebud said:

Be interesting what the vote would be if DEVO MAX option was on the ballot paper as a 3rd option. Wonder how many would vote for that ?

Other debate is whether 50% is correct bar for independence ?

Two points Lennie. Firstly, I would have been happy at the time ti vote Devi Max. Based on remaining in Europe and the UK. Now - perhaps more cemented in my distrust of the UK government/establishment than before. Secondly. Three alternatives:One, keep it as it was in the last referendum, make it 60/40 or make it a straightforward most votes cast. Still unsure.

[lenziebud]

1 minute ago, Rascal said:

Two points Lennie. Firstly, I would have been happy at the time ti vote Devi Max. Based on remaining in Europe and the UK. Now - perhaps more cemented in my distrust of the UK government/establishment than before. Secondly. Three alternatives:One, keep it as it was in the last referendum, make it 60/40 or make it a straightforward most votes cast. Still unsure.

If there was a solid thought out DEVO MAX option then IMO the vast majority of people in Scotland would vote for it. The vast majority IMO don't want full independence but want a lot more control over their affairs etc. 

A constitutional convention type process which actually needs to happen across the whole of the UK. Mayoral system in England a start. Needs a more progressive government to get the ball rolling. Will never happen under Conservative government of any shade. 

[StanleySaint]

Although living in England and therefore rightly having no vote I would think a straight majority vote as long as over 50% of those eligible to vote voted would be fair or alternatively 60% of votes cast if less than 50% of voters taking part, but if a straight majority was good enough for Brexit it should be plenty good enough for an Independence vote.