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Redundancies at the Academy


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9 hours ago, glen said:

Please don't ignore the "value" of the talented players who have come from the academy and played in our first team.

I’ve previously said quite clearly on this thread and others that there is nothing better than seeing someone come up via our academy and make an impact in the first team. 

The only player who has been through our modern day youth academy system, had a major impact on the field, winning a major domestic honour and returned a significant financial return through a transfer fee is John McGinn.

I don’t believe you can include great players like Kenny McLean and Lewis Morgan as we got them after they had been discarded by Rangers Academy (aged 16/17). 

Kyle McAllister also came through our academy but was sold to Derby. I believe we paid out a fee to bring him back on high wages. He never reached the same level as McGinn or won a major honour.

My issue with the Academy system is that young kids have to go through an extremely hard process involving diet diaries, punishing training schedules and major sacrifices to try and beat the very slim odds of making it as a professional footballer. 

These kids are pawns in a game played by multi million pound businesses. Only the elite survive.

The sacrifices that those young kids make (with pressure from pushy parents and coaches) leads many to problems with mental health in later years.

Many kids in these academies don’t study as well at school and when they are chucked out of the football system they have poor educational qualifications as a result.

A study has shown that only a small percentage of kids going through an elite EPL academy make it as far as playing one first team game.

The most damning statistic of all is only 180 of the 1.5 million players who are playing organised youth football in England at any one time will make it as a Premier League pro.

That's a success rate of 0.012%.

Pretty much the sort of chances of @bazil85 being hit by a meteorite on his way to his mums home.

Joking aside.

That’s my issue with our academy system. For every John McGinn how many have been chucked aside to get that one golden nugget?

I urge you all to read this article.

https://www.otbsports.com/soccer/michael-calvin-on-the-dark-side-of-footballs-youth-academies-242078

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53 minutes ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

I’ve previously said quite clearly on this thread and others that there is nothing better than seeing someone come up via our academy and make an impact in the first team. 

The only player who has been through our modern day youth academy system, had a major impact on the field, winning a major domestic honour and returned a significant financial return through a transfer fee is John McGinn.

I don’t believe you can include great players like Kenny McLean and Lewis Morgan as we got them after they had been discarded by Rangers Academy (aged 16/17). 

Kyle McAllister also came through our academy but was sold to Derby. I believe we paid out a fee to bring him back on high wages. He never reached the same level as McGinn or won a major honour.

My issue with the Academy system is that young kids have to go through an extremely hard process involving diet diaries, punishing training schedules and major sacrifices to try and beat the very slim odds of making it as a professional footballer. 

These kids are pawns in a game played by multi million pound businesses. Only the elite survive.

The sacrifices that those young kids make (with pressure from pushy parents and coaches) leads many to problems with mental health in later years.

Many kids in these academies don’t study as well at school and when they are chucked out of the football system they have poor educational qualifications as a result.

A study has shown that only a small percentage of kids going through an elite EPL academy make it as far as playing one first team game.

The most damning statistic of all is only 180 of the 1.5 million players who are playing organised youth football in England at any one time will make it as a Premier League pro.

That's a success rate of 0.012%.

Pretty much the sort of chances of @bazil85 being hit by a meteorite on his way to his mums home.

Joking aside.

That’s my issue with our academy system. For every John McGinn how many have been chucked aside to get that one golden nugget?

I urge you all to read this article.

https://www.otbsports.com/soccer/michael-calvin-on-the-dark-side-of-footballs-youth-academies-242078

I find the use of the m*t*orit* metaphor offensive. I know people who have claimed to being stuck by m*t*orit*s and there is nothing funny about that.

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17 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

I find the use of the m*t*orit* metaphor offensive. I know people who have claimed to being stuck by m*t*orit*s and there is nothing funny about that.

Oh dear. Nice of you to add something constructive to the debate as usual. 

I actually don’t think you ever have made a post that made me sit up and think that you are someone whose opinions are worth listening to.

So my message to you Rudy is…..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BE448321-E9B0-45A8-81D9-58E97CD98571.thumb.jpeg.f2f2af468da4ebe369ce460e177daefd.jpeg

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I find the use of the m*t*orit* metaphor offensive. I know people who have claimed to being stuck by m*t*orit*s and there is nothing funny about that.
By definition, to be a meteorite, the item must have landed on the surface of the earth. If it strikes someone on its way down, it's not a meteorite at that point in time, though may become one if it lands on the surface afterwards (which, I assume, it would almost certainly do). So, technically, you probably don't know anyone who was struck by a meteorite, unless it bounced off a rock then hit them.

Here to help. [emoji16]
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2 hours ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

I’ve previously said quite clearly on this thread and others that there is nothing better than seeing someone come up via our academy and make an impact in the first team. 

The only player who has been through our modern day youth academy system, had a major impact on the field, winning a major domestic honour and returned a significant financial return through a transfer fee is John McGinn.

I don’t believe you can include great players like Kenny McLean and Lewis Morgan as we got them after they had been discarded by Rangers Academy (aged 16/17). 

Kyle McAllister also came through our academy but was sold to Derby. I believe we paid out a fee to bring him back on high wages. He never reached the same level as McGinn or won a major honour.

My issue with the Academy system is that young kids have to go through an extremely hard process involving diet diaries, punishing training schedules and major sacrifices to try and beat the very slim odds of making it as a professional footballer. 

These kids are pawns in a game played by multi million pound businesses. Only the elite survive.

The sacrifices that those young kids make (with pressure from pushy parents and coaches) leads many to problems with mental health in later years.

Many kids in these academies don’t study as well at school and when they are chucked out of the football system they have poor educational qualifications as a result.

A study has shown that only a small percentage of kids going through an elite EPL academy make it as far as playing one first team game.

The most damning statistic of all is only 180 of the 1.5 million players who are playing organised youth football in England at any one time will make it as a Premier League pro.

That's a success rate of 0.012%.

Pretty much the sort of chances of @bazil85 being hit by a meteorite on his way to his mums home.

Joking aside.

That’s my issue with our academy system. For every John McGinn how many have been chucked aside to get that one golden nugget?

I urge you all to read this article.

https://www.otbsports.com/soccer/michael-calvin-on-the-dark-side-of-footballs-youth-academies-242078

*upset & lashing out aside. 

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36 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

*upset & lashing out aside. 

And another one who’s opinion on anything on this forum is not worth reading.

“Normally, both your asses would be dead as fcuking fried chicken, but you happen to pull this shite while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you!”

9FF6F9E2-8B42-4525-9599-4AAA21275634.thumb.jpeg.8bed01ad5181f951f499a13ea5de3172.jpeg

 

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3 hours ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

I’ve previously said quite clearly on this thread and others that there is nothing better than seeing someone come up via our academy and make an impact in the first team. 

The only player who has been through our modern day youth academy system, had a major impact on the field, winning a major domestic honour and returned a significant financial return through a transfer fee is John McGinn.

I don’t believe you can include great players like Kenny McLean and Lewis Morgan as we got them after they had been discarded by Rangers Academy (aged 16/17). 

Kyle McAllister also came through our academy but was sold to Derby. I believe we paid out a fee to bring him back on high wages. He never reached the same level as McGinn or won a major honour.

My issue with the Academy system is that young kids have to go through an extremely hard process involving diet diaries, punishing training schedules and major sacrifices to try and beat the very slim odds of making it as a professional footballer. 

These kids are pawns in a game played by multi million pound businesses. Only the elite survive.

The sacrifices that those young kids make (with pressure from pushy parents and coaches) leads many to problems with mental health in later years.

Many kids in these academies don’t study as well at school and when they are chucked out of the football system they have poor educational qualifications as a result.

A study has shown that only a small percentage of kids going through an elite EPL academy make it as far as playing one first team game.

The most damning statistic of all is only 180 of the 1.5 million players who are playing organised youth football in England at any one time will make it as a Premier League pro.

That's a success rate of 0.012%.

Pretty much the sort of chances of @bazil85 being hit by a meteorite on his way to his mums home.

Joking aside.

That’s my issue with our academy system. For every John McGinn how many have been chucked aside to get that one golden nugget?

I urge you all to read this article.

https://www.otbsports.com/soccer/michael-calvin-on-the-dark-side-of-footballs-youth-academies-242078

Getting back on track, may I suggest that it is appropriate to separate out all academy players and analyse how many become professionals, rather than just pick the easy Premier League stat.

The analysis — of players born from 1 September 1995 to 31 August 2000 — includes 4,109 players who were registered at Category One academies.

Of the 4,109 former academy footballers, 70 per cent were not even handed a professional contract at a Premier League or English Football League club. And only one in 10 has gone on to make more than 20 league appearances in the top four tiers of English football.

I agree that the percentages are really low still, however you would have to agree that making it into the Premier League is well beyond almost any child's abilities unless they stand out from almost day one.

The i  newspaper did a pretty revealing piece about the whole academy system and it's worth reading. It highlights all the failings and the indescribable pressure for kids and parents alike.

Yes the academies are there to create money for their clubs and you can't knock them for that, but they could go an awful lot further in ensuring that the education provided to them along with developing their skills on the football pitch will give them a good chance of achieving something outside of football should they not succeed.

 

 

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22 hours ago, The Original 59er said:

.Yes the academies are there to create money for their clubs and you can't knock them for that, but they could go an awful lot further in ensuring that the education provided to them along with developing their skills on the football pitch will give them a good chance of achieving something outside of football should they not succeed.

 

 

That’s my main concern. I remember when we never had an academy and we worked on the basis of ‘S’ forms. For a time St Mirren had a agreement in place where the youths were given education at Reid Kerr college.

I’m not sure that type of educational pathway is still in place. It’s a common practice across all age groups in all football academies that some of the players (boys and girls) are just jersey fillers. The club have pretty much made their mind up only a very few in each age group are likely to be offered a professional contract.

As I said previously our only “Golden Nugget” from our modern Youth Academy structure is John McGinn.

Sure others have broken through to the first team like Ethan Erhahon, Jay Henderson, etc but not sold on.

Kenny McLean & Lewis Morgan came at age 16/17 from Rangers academy system.

Kyle McAllister you could argue. He came through our system, made the first team, sold on, but we ended up buying him back. But in terms of overall impact in our first team (domestic major honours) and the financial return on investment no one can hold a candle to the success of John McGinn where we still hold a 30% return on any future transfer fees. Hibs sell on agreement with Villa was 15% return of which we receive 30% and some additional compensation via the FIFA solidarity payment system for his development from age 12 to when he left us.

If the Academy is currently costing us £1M per year that’s a poor return on investment over a 15 year period.

 

 

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Where did the £1,000,000 figure for the academy come from? I would be doubtful it costs that much. I suspect the figure contains total costs for the upkeep of the training and other facilities which are shared with the first team and female players at the club which would inflate those costs mentioned.

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On 8/17/2022 at 8:26 AM, bazil85 said:

Slarti hangs about on step 4 a lot but he’s been through all these steps multiple times. 
 

E6F720FE-A36A-4A11-96C5-F30F418988ED.jpeg

I would urge everyone to use the ignore function! If someone's content is too obnoxious or abrasive then add them to your ignore list. I used it for the first time recently, and can attest to its usefulness. That said, I very rarely find anyone's content unbearable.

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1 hour ago, W6er said:

I would urge everyone to use the ignore function! If someone's content is too obnoxious or abrasive then add them to your ignore list. I used it for the first time recently, and can attest to its usefulness. That said, I very rarely find anyone's content unbearable.

I fully agree. I just don’t really get why a person who has used the function would need to keep obsessing over the person they apparently want to ignore. 

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1 hour ago, stlucifer said:

Where did the £1,000,000 figure for the academy come from? I would be doubtful it costs that much. I suspect the figure contains total costs for the upkeep of the training and other facilities which are shared with the first team and female players at the club which would inflate those costs mentioned.

I said previously that I think Stewart Gilmour mentioned this figure at an AGM. Now I might have that figure wrong in the context of the discussion about the academy back then.

It could be that is the total cost as you say of all the facilities, equipment, artificial pitch and grass pitches, maintenance, sports science, coaches, rent, etc. 

Someone at the club must have a grasp on the true cost of running a 5 star Elite Academy. From that they will be able to work out the return on investment of the academy. 

SMiSA have been a long term supporter of the Academy since it started. From providing equipment and helping with staff costs to contributing for a new artificial pitch.  

Currently 30% of all SMISA subscriptions are going towards the academy.

Based on the 1877 Society Ltd annual accounts (https://mutuals.fca.org.uk/Documents/Download/868486) for financial year ended 30/11/21 we had 1233 members with an income of £188,201.

If we subtract SMiSA rough estimate overheads (my suggestion £8,000) to include accountant fees, Membership software, sponsorship, postage, etc this works out at

£180,000 x 30 = £54,000 towards the academy. 

So let’s say the club puts £200,000 towards the costs. Now I’m not sure the exact number of staff dedicated to the academy. But there are certainly 3 full time staff in Alan McManus, Andy Webster and Ross Paterson. I’d imagine there must be other coaches, physio, sport science, video analysis involved given the number of kids involved. I’d imagine there will be a cost associated with this as I don’t imagine they are volunteering.

So let’s say £250,000 annually for the last 15 years. That equates to £3.75M. 

Our biggest asset that we have produced in that time frame is John McGinn and let’s just say that he has returned to date £1.5M to the club. 

Do we honestly think that we have reaped rewards totalling £2.25M from other graduates who were completely reared through our academy to the first team in the last 15 years?

I must admit I’d forgotten about Kyle Magennis, Jason Naismith, Marc McAusland and wee Stevie Mallens transfers. I can’t remember the value received on their transfers. https://www.stmirren.com/teams/youth-academy/hall-of-fame

 

 

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1 hour ago, W6er said:

I would urge everyone to use the ignore function! If someone's content is too obnoxious or abrasive then add them to your ignore list. I used it for the first time recently, and can attest to its usefulness. That said, I very rarely find anyone's content unbearable.

Remind me again. What have you offered to this particular discussion that merits a response?  

Yes I know you won’t see my response so maybe someone could kindly quote this so you do.

I have tried to put forward a reasoned argument for the debate over the cost of the academy. I’ve not seen anything from you to counter my arguments. If I’ve missed that I sincerely apologise, but please show me evidence. 

As a final point I have supported the academy throughout the years - even when the academy kids collected money in buckets at Love St. I’ve supported via my SMiSA contributions back to 2002. 

I personally would far rather see our academy players given a chance in the first team over any number of journeymen who have been signed throughout the years by numerous first team managers.

When a manager is appointed by the club he will do everything in his power to be successful and not be sacked. His job is to win points to stay in the top league or get out of the championship. That’s his priority. We have seen a host of managers at St Mirren ignore academy kids and sign an experienced player that has first team experience elsewhere. These players will likely be on a far greater salary than the youth player and will also receive a significant signing on fee as negotiated by their agent who will also take a cut.

One manager in particular who we won’t name wanted rid of Kenny McLean who ended up being part of the squad that won a major domestic honour in 2013. This is the same Kenny McLean who was ditched by Rangers aged around 16/17. We received a fee circa £100K when he left to join Aberdeen.

Kenny McLean has since gone on to win international honours and has played in the EPL. He is probably now a millionaire. He only missed out on playing at a major international tournament through injury.

Lewis Morgan was ditched by Rangers aged around 16/17 and we were able to sold him for £300,000. He has also gained international recognition and like Kenny is probably a millionaire now. 

Good luck to both of them. They worked hard and achieved their goals DESPITE rejection at Rangers and were fortunate that certain St Mirren mangers gave them a chance.

I don’t believe there was any sell on clauses for Kenny and Lewis in the way we get 30% of 15% of what Hibs receive for John McGinn.

As you can see the odds of going onto achieve what those three did are stacked against them.

I am immensely proud of what they have achieved.

But no manager at St Mirren would ever sign a contract that stipulated he must play a certain number of youth academy in the first team. An agent would never allow it and neither would the league managers Union.

We have even seen some of our managers not even fill a bench with academy players when we have been short of players through injuries or suspensions. 

Do you know why that is?

Because they need to pay those academy players and the academy a fee for being part of the first team squad.

It may not be much, but it all eats away at the first team managers budget which he will protect as he may need that money to spend in the next transfer window to save his job.

Once he does sign a player from another club he will feel that he has to play him at all costs.

 

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2 hours ago, StanleySaint said:

But isn't the idea of the academy not only to hopefully produce players to sell at a profit but also to provide us with first team players we don't need to buy. So brining in academy graduates is a good thing surely.

See my point above about the first team managers viewpoint. 

I agree it should be a good thing, but the harsh reality is that it’s up to the first team manager. Some never rated Kenny MCLean or Lewis Morgan.

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4 hours ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

I said previously that I think Stewart Gilmour mentioned this figure at an AGM. Now I might have that figure wrong in the context of the discussion about the academy back then.

It could be that is the total cost as you say of all the facilities, equipment, artificial pitch and grass pitches, maintenance, sports science, coaches, rent, etc. 

Someone at the club must have a grasp on the true cost of running a 5 star Elite Academy. From that they will be able to work out the return on investment of the academy. 

SMiSA have been a long term supporter of the Academy since it started. From providing equipment and helping with staff costs to contributing for a new artificial pitch.  

Currently 30% of all SMISA subscriptions are going towards the academy.

Based on the 1877 Society Ltd annual accounts (https://mutuals.fca.org.uk/Documents/Download/868486) for financial year ended 30/11/21 we had 1233 members with an income of £188,201.

If we subtract SMiSA rough estimate overheads (my suggestion £8,000) to include accountant fees, Membership software, sponsorship, postage, etc this works out at

£180,000 x 30 = £54,000 towards the academy. 

So let’s say the club puts £200,000 towards the costs. Now I’m not sure the exact number of staff dedicated to the academy. But there are certainly 3 full time staff in Alan McManus, Andy Webster and Ross Paterson. I’d imagine there must be other coaches, physio, sport science, video analysis involved given the number of kids involved. I’d imagine there will be a cost associated with this as I don’t imagine they are volunteering.

So let’s say £250,000 annually for the last 15 years. That equates to £3.75M. 

Our biggest asset that we have produced in that time frame is John McGinn and let’s just say that he has returned to date £1.5M to the club. 

Do we honestly think that we have reaped rewards totalling £2.25M from other graduates who were completely reared through our academy to the first team in the last 15 years?

I must admit I’d forgotten about Kyle Magennis, Jason Naismith, Marc McAusland and wee Stevie Mallens transfers. I can’t remember the value received on their transfers. https://www.stmirren.com/teams/youth-academy/hall-of-fame

 

 

100% we easily have. Taking out the transfer fees we’ve had over the years for players (including McLean & Morgan, even though they spent most of their youth at other clubs, they still had to come here & train & perform. Not sure why you’re excluding them) as well as the first team players we’ve had, our academy has been very profitable. Maybe for the cost, one of the most profitable in Scotland. 
 

I think what you’re missing is the academy & training facilities are not mutually exclusive, Ralston is a facility that caters for both. It isn’t a matter of having money for an academy & money for a training faculty, there is massive crossover in equipment, playing surfaces, coaching, eating plans, analyst facilities & the general pathway. The benefits of that faculty don’t end when a player steps up to the senior squad. 
 

All things considered, having a brilliant academy/ training faculty over the last 15 years or so has reflected better in our transfer income & league performances than the 15 year period before it when we trained on what was essentially a field. 

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30 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Read the rest of my post. 

Nothing factual there to back it up. I’ve already stated why Morgan and McLean can’t really be claimed as successful long term graduates of our academy as they joined us when they were 16/17 and managers like Gus wanted to consign Kenny to the scrap heap.

You seem unable to back up your argument with any hard facts. Otherwise you are operating in your modus operandi. 

100% Bazil Bullshit. 
 

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10 hours ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

Nothing factual there to back it up. I’ve already stated why Morgan and McLean can’t really be claimed as successful long term graduates of our academy as they joined us when they were 16/17 and managers like Gus wanted to consign Kenny to the scrap heap.

You seem unable to back up your argument with any hard facts. Otherwise you are operating in your modus operandi. 

100% Bazil Bullshit. 
 

I've read back and, may, I ask, where are your "facts"?

You throw away two players who undoubtably were products of our academy coaches. They saw talent where others didn't and nursed that talent so,  if you're using the cost of the academy as a weapon, then logic dictates you have to include players who have been coached by the people that money is funding.

The claim of £1,000,000 costs is not definitive. It most likely DOES include crossover costs. You've done nothing to try to dispute this.

Glass houses and all that.

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11 hours ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

Nothing factual there to back it up. I’ve already stated why Morgan and McLean can’t really be claimed as successful long term graduates of our academy as they joined us when they were 16/17 and managers like Gus wanted to consign Kenny to the scrap heap.

You seem unable to back up your argument with any hard facts. Otherwise you are operating in your modus operandi. 

100% Bazil Bullshit. 
 

It’s factual that our academy & training facilities aren’t completely separate so I don’t understand why you’re looking at one & ignoring the benefit of the other. 
 

Morgan was a year before he made his senior debut after coming to us as a youth, McLean was around 18 months before going out on loan for senior football. They both factually developed through our training & youth facilities before being ready to play.
 

Gus also didn’t run the academy, his incorrect views if anything show the benefit of our academy in keeping an (apparently) unwanted player on track.
 

So to summarise

Significant transfer income - fact

a steady flow of promising talent right up to this day - fact

Training/ academy facilities that have coincided with a better period in our history than the same period immediately before the facilities - fact

A steady flow of first team players for the club - fact  

Several youth players still playing at better quality clubs who could generate future income in transfers - fact

I would wager if any other username made these points you’d accept them. Your bias  is showing. 

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What i say below is for most players and i fully agree there will be some who enter via a different route. 

I prefer the model that the usa has for american football. In high school you have too maintain a C average on your report card to be on any school team this includes such clubs as cheerleading, basketball being in the school band. If you drop below a C you cannot participate till the next report card which are every 9 weeks or 45 days. You are deemed to be not focused on  school work so why should you be privelged to be on  the team. 

After high school you go to college/uni  because you have studied and most who are good enough will get a scholarship or if not good enough you at least have an education to take you forward. 

In college the model remains thats why most professional americam football players have some form of professional qualifications. 

At the age if 22/23 and after playing college ball only then do you go to play fully professional and get the big money. 

A players career can be over anytime and they cannot all be pundits. I think that at age 22/23 you are more mature to handle fame,  the ridiculous amount of money that is given  to them. 

I am not saying all in uk should go to uni but every player should have something to fall back on. 

 

 

Edited by fan4ever
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Our academy hasn't produced any players who were born in May, prefer mint choc chip ice cream and watch Better Cal Saul who have been sold to Real Madrid for £20 million therefore it is an utter failure.

I was going to post a sensible response but others have done that for me.

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48 minutes ago, Stu said:

Our academy hasn't produced any players who were born in May, prefer mint choc chip ice cream and watch Better Cal Saul who have been sold to Real Madrid for £20 million therefore it is an utter failure.

I was going to post a sensible response but others have done that for me.

What a show by the way. If anyone hasn’t watched it, fully recommend. 

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