ktf
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Posts posted by ktf
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In 10000 hours model their is no level of involvement other than paying for the self elected board to lord it, however if your face fits you might get a seat on the junior board, which is a bit like a school pupils board (No scissors, or matches)
Lets see who the fit and proper bidders the selling BoD have selected are!
That was addressed last night and explained fully. What you have just stated us 100% untrue.
If you had been there you would have known. However ignorance allows you to further your agenda.
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So sorry about that, got my info from Div's tweets so that should be your first port of call for in your words: " holes, inaccuracies, false statements and downright lies"
Hope your not driving and beelin?
Neither driving nor "beelin". Your attention-seeking nonsense doesn't emotionally affect me in the slightest. Thanks for considering my well-being though.
I'll recount Div's tweets at some point today. However it is worth considering that he was typing as it was being spoken, which often leads to missing clarity and the inability to retract something that hasn't been accurately communicated, and, he only has 140 characters to get the message across. You should watch the live Sky news subtitles to see what I mean.
Perhaps though, to save yourself from looking like a tit, you should leave the summary of meetings to those who were in attendance... Although this wouldn't help push your agenda, would it?
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The death of fan ownership was confirmed at approx 19:20pm 7 June 2012 by the following tweet:
"As of tomorrow morning, anyone who wishes to run for election to the CIC board can email [email protected] and ask to be considered."
So 10000 hours version of democracy goes a bit like: "you pay for us to put ourselves on the BoD, then we decide which of you we want on the wee BoD"
You couldn't f**ken make it up!
Liked all the tweets emphasising we are now being propped up by the 'Big Issue' that must mean I've already got a membership for all those £'s over the years.
Especially interested in the tweets that kept repeating there is no debt to the club (which as a parent org they confirmed in other tweets there is) followed by the less than startling revelation that they hadn't sold any £25k memberships!!! So the great GLS masterplan to halve the debt hasn't worked, will he keep his directorship based on this shocking level of performance???
Oh the reason it (10000 hours)hasn't been successful apparently is because we (SMFC) are so successful (Shull did you get that wan). Although SG in todays Herald insists we haven't moved on at all off the park.
They did at least confirm:
A - it's not a co-operative, and didn't seem to want to discuss that
B - there is no eveidence of Member democratic control (the self elected board choose who sits on the wee board, and the exec board just get in because)
C - they didn't want to talk about who and why they have promised certain groups the club's revenue generating opportunities?
D - and the reason people, community groups, businesses haven't got behind it is mainly down to the cheek of SMFC fans who discuss it at length on their fan forums
add to that the selection of scare story slides, the amount of times they repeated the selling consortium's THREAT! that they will sell to whoever before August, and the now ritual slating of Smisa and or anyone who dain to challenge their proposal.
Nothing changed, it's not democratic by their own admission. And if 10000 hours refuse to accept it hasn't been widely supported because they haven't been able to make a plan last until lunchtime then more fool them.
Come on other bidders let's be 'Aving you!
There are more holes, inaccuracies, false statements and downright lies in this post than I can even attempt to address right now, on my phone.
It's hardly surprising but still astounding that you attempt to give an account of a meeting that you didn't even go to.
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When you join BWA(as I did) with the intention to talk up the CIC bid and a vision of fan ownership with the inclusion of Renfrewshire using St Mirren Park as a hub for social benefit then it is obviously disappointing when things go tits up. Tits up it is and the tweets I hear today make it even more certain this bid is not only flawed but dead. "Funder clarity 14/06/12"...Just means newco Rang*rs in the SPL will be voted yes by SG...a no for me. SG "I will sell to anyone"...Threat that he might complete....His choice.....MacBeth comes to mind but i don't like threats. "Gordon and Richard have tried to communicate on the website!
"...."Gordons shares when we have £100,000
We need momentum??...2 years too late....Apologies.. gies peace!....An international Craig Whyte asset stripper it is then ...Junior football is always an option for me as there is only so much shite you can take for supporting St Mirren since 1978....Sometimes the people involved with your club can talk enough pish to make you drown.Grade A clown.
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Just walking past maxwellton on the way up the road.
I'd urge everyone to get behind this 100%
But as I said at the meeting. Don't dismiss the constitution as some shit on a bit of lavvy paper. These are the rules you must abide by. Every single person who signs up should be aware off it and read it.
Take an interest, get involved. This is your club. Now more than ever.
And yes, I filled in a DD.
On a side note, the smisa folk are wired to the moon, retired folk, scared their wee gang will mow mean hee haw. They were the easiest to spot in the room.
You're quote was the perfect way to close the meeting Bud! Also nice to put a name to a face.
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I've been a wee bit surprised not to see more of the folk I would have expected to be there. TL, NSS and SPS have been to some of the meetings. Most of the folk I've met over the years haven't been to any of the meetings. The meetings appear to be mainly attended by ralstonian, old grammarian, spam valley types. It would be good to see a few more of the borstal educated fans like me and SPS there tonight.
What a dick
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No point stressing over it. The last public meeting was a complete disaster. The f'k'n bar was shut for a start.
SG wasn't there, GLS wasn't there. No cnut bothered turning up in fact - all the dafties raging over the last week in defence of the CIC never bothered their arse to turn up either. It was basically a game of f"k you ping pong between SMiSA and REA. I spent most of the meeting with my head in my hands in much the same way as I hope every other cnut has been feeling about the posts I've been making over the last week.If SG is not at the meeting tomorrow night then it will be off to a very bad start. I expect a full turn out for this meeting and that includes SMISA, somner9 and the CIC knockers plus cnuts like ktf, div, davidg, etc that never bothered their arses to turn up to the last meeting. The turnout at the last meeting was a f'k'n disgrace. Where was all this support for REA and the CIC at that meeting. Even SPS's dug didnae pop in to the meeting and it was spotted having a shite on the half way line.
You fannies are all full of opinions.....when challenged your quick to get "stressed" and defend your vague beliefs, rights or whatever wankery floats your boats. Where were all these Internet warriors when REA was getting a roasting off of SMISA? Has anyone done their homework for tomorrow nights meeting to support REA in countering the criticism that SMiSA and whoever else might creep out of the woodwork?
SMISA and REA had one of the key debates that covered a wealth of information about the CIC. More detail than we have seen so far. No cnut bothered their arse to turn up and support either side. It's as funny as f"k that I have been challenged about going to the meeting. Other than REA I'm probably the only cnut that has attended all of the public meetings.
So if you are serious about supporting the CIC get off you fat lazy consumer arses and show the guy the support he deserves.
f**k sake! I was in Chelmsford, Essex. Tonight though. I'll be in St Mirren Park, Greenhill Road, Paisley, Renfrewshire - so ram it!
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I'll be there. You'll know me as I'll be the best looking guy in the room
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Not if the rank and file continue to behave like consumers, pay their money and assume they get fan ownership in return. No one appears to have read the draft constitution, no one appears to understand the CIC / SMFC plan in any level of detail. What makes you think that will change? If 10000 Hours asked for 12 people at the meeting to step foward to become part of the working group for the constitution they would be lucky to get 2 people never mind twelve. The constitution will not be improved because people will just pay their tenner and that will be that. The minute something happens they don't like or agree with they'll stop paying their tenner.
That is the nature of constituted organisations. When the numbers drop their will be another rallying call based on fear and a few more fans may start paying again. There is no fan ownership in this - there will not be a single directive to the BoD of SMFC. Fans are consumers, and enjoy being consumers. As LS says, we couldn;t give a toss about the politics in the club. A few beers, watch the game, moan like f"k about the defeats, celebrate the victories. The tenner-a-month is an investment for someone else to control the club - because the rank and file consumer fans can't be arsed.
So... How is this 10000 Hrs' or REA's fault? Stu Dick was right, and I agree with you, it appears the average St Mirren fan is too stupid to get it. However, it doesn't need everyone on board to change things, just a quorum - in sure between us all, we can find a good enough number to set the thing straight. Don't stress John, chill. Sign the bloody form - we'll make sure it'll be ok. I promise you, it can't not be.
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The only consolation that your thread building has delivered is that we've been spared your usual close season "exclusives" on the transfer front.
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And yet no one is able to post anything beyond emotive bollox. I'm right and you know it. 10000 Hours are treating us like consumers and we are behaving like consumers. Pay your tenner-a-month and let someone else get on with doing to the work. That's not fan ownership.
At least SMISA have had a go at acting like partners only to be "sidelined" when they saw something they didn't agree or was it just that they didn't matter to 10000 Hours any more?
It's time for the fans to get off their fat lazy consumer arses and start behaving like they are responsible for the club. A tenner-a-month doesn't give you ownership.
I have admitted that you have a point. However we differ in that I think it can and will be amended appropriately afterwards. It can't not. The sheer pressure of numbers stacked in our (R&F) favour means it will. Also the social funder(s) won't allow it to be solely corporate. I'd rather sign up now and work my arse off afterwards to ensure it becomes what it is meant to and always should have been. It's easier to steer a moving ship - but impossible if the thing is sinking!
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Admit it that's a belter of a post.
I'll admit nothing. It's a rake of pish!
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It is the point I am making LS. We do have a hardcore of fans that would buy a f'k'n rubber duck if you stuck a St Mirren strip on it - did you see the state of some bawbags because they were no longer available.
This "plan" is being pushed through using high pressure sales techniques. The detail has not been provided. Instead it has been a sale on an emotional level. An appeal to values and fears. Values such as fan empowerment, community, one town - one club, blah, blah. Fears such as Massone, KMG and scumgers, foreign investors, the scouse chaps that flirted with QoS.
We all understand that, we all share those values, we all share those fears. Fan ownership as a solution - great. Any fan would buy it.
However, the sales process stopped there.
I might need to have email at home to carry out a job, or just for the fun of accessing forums to noise up dafties. That is the desire for a solution - I don't just think great - I'll buy the Internet and go to the shop and hand over cash to some cnut claiming to be able to deliver the Internet.
If I want access to the Internet, there are a few parts to the overall solution....computer, modem, ISP, etc. If I lived in spam valley like Balfy & Div - there would also be finance required. I need to check that the various components are compatible...certain modems / routers will only work with certain types of ISP, etc. I need to look at the detail to make sure it will all work together. I might ask a friend to look into it for me - I might look at an Internet users group for advice to see what they reckon the best solution is - I will look at the instructions / recommendations from the various venders, etc. All part of the sales process.
10000 Hours are keeping the sales discussion on the CIC / SMFC solution at the values / fears level. They are selling it at the emotional level.
We have "friends" expressing concern about the solution and asking us to look at the instruction, compaitbility, etc. We have a user group in SMISA telling us they have tested the product and have concerns about the solution. When this happens it is wise to read the f'k'n manual. 10000 Hours are refusing to let anyone read the f'k'n manual until after the products have been bought and there is a no returns policy.
Now I am not saying ditch the solution. I am saying that we need to make sure it is fit for purpose and that when we get it home and try and use it - that it will work. It is a solution made up of many working parts. If one fails the entire system fails. We are not being given access to the terms of the guarantee.....
anyhow....point made.......although I am sure this post like others will get drowned in the usual....aye but where the list of information you actually want.
I want to read the f'k'n manual and so should anyone considering singing up to deploy this solution on our club.
Oh dear, still at it.
Hypocritical so-and-so
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ANyway, the only information I am now interested in getting before the meeting tomorrow night at this late stage is will the f'k'n bar be open. It wasn't at the last meeting, which didn't help my mood at having to listen to SMISA and REA rattling on a lot of shite for two hours solid completely bevvyless.
A pertinent question!!! I'll see you there - make sure you say hi this time!
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All the true sayings are coming to fruition, 'don't cast your cloot til mae is oot', 'show me your friends and I'll tell you what you are' and lastly 'beware, beware, beware of geeks bearing gifts'!!!!
Great another alias. Just what this debate needs.
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Too late they're already on there for three years! C Whyte needed only a matter of months to crash and burn his club.
Shameless scaremongering, of the kind for which you were lambasting Supermac's article in the Herald and the PDE article when they mentioned other foreign bidders who have approached the selling consortium.
It can't be one way and not the other. If there are other bidders, they can't be guaranteed to safely look after our club and if there aren't, REA et al can't be guaranteed to bring down the club over the next (fantasy) three years.
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Simple question, we've established despite what it's been tagged that this is not a Co-operative. But a form of fan ownership? (correct me if i'm wrong)
Why then were the fans the last to be involved, and the group with the least information?
I suppose this question is only pertinent if we really are discussing fan ownership and not a cobbled together bid that sees all the major decision making already done, and all the positions of power and influence nicely tucked up.
There have been 6 (if not more) public meetings. Countless email releases. A 10000 Hours forum on their own website. A dedicated thread on this forum. People have been offered that chance to personally talk to REA and the team. SMISA have been advertising meetings for anyone to attend. There is a draft constitution and an FAQ in circulation.
If you feel you have too little information, that is because you have purposefully chosen not to engage in the process, not because 10000 Hours haven't made the effort to get the info out there.
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Fair enough.
You have surmised why you think SMISA have acted the way they have. SMISA should tell us all EXACTLY why they have withdrew their support. You have to ask...Why the secrecy and were their members consulted about this decision?
I have re-confirmed my DD and I look forward to perhaps influencing the future running of our Club, as a fan, as best I can. All for the price of 30 cigarettes (or 3 pints) a month.
I'll start by listening to (and asking) a few questions at the meeting on Thursday night. You coming along? It might be informing/interesting.
I don't know Dick either Peter, but I supect he is the same Bud who uses question marks at the end of almost every sentence... whom you should know!
Anyway, who is Somner?
No! Which is ironic, as some of thier complaint seems to be that there is too little fan/membership involvement.
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I'll sign hee-haw until further information is provided, and any fan that cares about the club, its community, its fans - all of the fans (even SPS) - should take the same view.
From a brilliant post earlier to one of the worst you have ever made on here.
Ranting and raving about potential season ticket boycotts on one thread and outraged that some fans would "encourage" others not to renew (when there wasn't one post doing so) to this post above, where you are clearly inciting fans not to sign up to be part of fan ownership and governance and claiming that if they do they are not real fans and don't care about the community or the club.
Downright f**king shameful, John. Hypocritical, brazen-faced and shameful.
You may feel like you need more info.
You may believe that 10,000 Hours are up to something sneaky
You might think that the whole thing is an elaborate way for REA to own the club at our expense
You might have spat the dummy out cos you weren't invited to a bum-in
You may have been left out of a piece of information
You may think you have been misled
That is no reason for you to encourage honest, smart and SMFC-loving fans not sign-up. You are deliberately trying to hurt the club, the town and the fans. And, unlike those not renewing their season tickets, your crusade to not get people to sign up to the CiC will hurt the long term future of the club - not just for one season but possibly forever. To use your own expression against you, it is bawbaggery of the highest possible order.
If people truly care about the club (and/or the town) and can afford, by hook or by crook, £10 per month, then they should be signing up for this. Every bit of uncertainty will be able to ironed out at a later date.
It is abhorrent that Sid is trying to encourage people not to sign up, deliberately trying to hurt the future of the club.
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Div, this is the best post you have made in a while and it is bang on the money.
However, this now needs to be presented for what it is. I beleive that it is actually enough to progress so long as the number add up by a good safety margin.
The 52% shareholding is not quite as powerful as has been potrayed. However, it MAY still deliver what we want in terms of securing the future of the club for future generations. All the other salesy shite about community / one club / fan huddles in the members bar, needs to be set aside.
We now need an adult debate on the fundamentals of this - that is based on cold hard facts. At the heart of this is a pretty stiff number £1.5M (according to the latest article in the PDE). Let's not forget that when we were on the verge of going out of business on a month by month basis the debt was similar numbers. Could it all really have been solved with a £10-a-month increase in our season tickets and more debt purchased on the back of that?
If you strip away all the hoo-hah about the CIC....it is effectively fans signing up to fund £1.5Million worth of debt depending on how that figure has been reached - is it a negotiation with the consortium or is it removing the "donation" from GLS, inwhich case the figure is £1.7Million.
The non-exec Board gives away significant power from fan ownership for a fraction of the investment fans are making. The fan will actually be paying that money back with interest in the long run. So in reality we're getting completely f"k'd over in that particular deal.
The deferred payment to the consortium smacks of the fans monthly direct debits not being able to repay the debt - which maens there IS risk involved. The implications of that risk have been schmooj'd away with throw away comments and sweeping gestures with blah, blah...such as...then we'll be in the same position as we are now. Er, no I don't think that would be the case at all. Not paying back debt is never as easy as - ach, its just social funders - we'll just renegotiate it....have we got that agreement from the social funder? What does it say in their T&C's about actions they can take if we fail to repay the debt? How is the consortium's deferred payment going to work if we don't pay them. What are the T&C's? Then we have GLS telling us not to worry about defaulting on his debt...it looks like he has a permanent place on the BoD until the debt to him is repaid.
The opportunity is still worth pursuing - but we need to understand the risk beyond a few sweeping reassurance positive spin statements. No one is trying to derail anything - 10000 Hours and the consortium are trying to force this through within a given timescale, not the fans. The urgency to see detail has been driven by 10000 Hours not SMISA or the fans.
The secure future of the club is the critical factor here - not pushing the CIC over the finish line before fans are comfortable with the risk to the club.
Ah! At last, the Sid we know and love.
This is a great post and bang on the money. I still believe that the community/one town stuff can be achieved (partly because it probably has to be to appease the social funders, partly because there will hopefully be enough of us like-minded buds on board to put the pressure on to make it happen) but even if it isn't just now, that doesn't stop it being a great opportunity to secure the future of the club an make sure it is in safe hands for our kiddos.
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St.Sid, is it because you ain't been offered the President's post.
This, with bells on
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I did not return with any "facts". I simply asked how many home games Richard Atkinson attended last season. That seems a reasonable question to ask. If, as he claims, to be genuinly intrested in the the Club that might be a good measure. So KTF can you tell me the answer (or Mr. A if you are watching this).
You gave options, suggesting multiple choice - as if you were in the know. As you first offered those options, you tell me - where did you get your info that he had been at a maximum of 3 matches all season?
Again though, this is just a smoke screen. The co-op is about the fans. The diddies who are dead set on making it about REA or otherwise are grossly mislead. I have signed up to the co-op and I was at every home match (bar one) last season - that is just as important. If anyone has a semi-reasonable point about the issues fan ownership/governance now faces, it's Sid... The problems that exist are a lack of current common or garden fan involvement and a derth of info that has been put into the public domain. The issue certainly isn't how many matches one of the CiC members attended last season. Of course, even Sid knows he's ripping the piss going on to the extent he is about his perceived issues.
It's a brilliant irony that the best possible chance there is of 10000 Hrs failing is fronted by someone who is a signed up member and who is half joking about the complaints he has.
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It's nice to have been away for a week and come back to see that Sid is STILL in meltdown mode, Somner still unable to put a good cast against 10000 Hrs and Animal returned with completely inaccurate facts about REA's attendance at matches last season - as well as other poorly communicated drivel!
Sid is now the anti-CiCers best hope of winning and even he's really only at the wind-up! Somner and Animal best lay it down to rest, it stands a better chance of failure without your "help".
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The pond has just been done up recently! I was there last Sunday for the West End Fayre. One of Paisley's finest parks, I think! Shame Glencoats House was knocked down...
The Day Fan Ownership Died!
in 10000Hours Archive
Posted
There are two main shareholding groups: 10000 Hrs (majority shareholding) and 1877 (minority, made up of anyone with 1877 shares or more). Each will have an elected board, which in turn can put up for election a proportional (per shares or the group) number of people onto the club BoD. 10000 Hrs, having the majority shareholding, will always have the majority of places on the club BoD.
The 1877 board has been referred to as the non-executive board, simply because it has the minority of shares and so has no real power to act, except to put up for election a minority of members to the club BoD (which is still a good proposal IMO).
The CiC elected board will have the power, along with being able to put up for election members of the club board, to make decisions, as the CiC members see fit, on the running of the football club and the CiC.
All of the above process is done democratically with elections, votes and, if group members disagree with the decisions of thier elected board, the process of AGM/EGM, where decisions can be made on board membership, the constitution and other major decisions.
There is nothing hidden, nothing sinister and no "junior" or otherwise board.