ktf
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Posts posted by ktf
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Fact 2 - Sid has spat the dummy.
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2 men and a dug will turn up. Richard please go and gees peace. We need a fan buy out but 10000hrs has become a joke ....mainly due to your own lack of info , 2 apologies is 2 too many for me. Not interested now...Just like you were not able to listen to anyone for months ....I have no intention of ever supporting you and i think apart from Div...and a few... It's over...go away and buy Ayr.
FFS, you've done more u-turns than a bombay taxi driver. Any credibility you had went when the libcon's binned their pasty tax!
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Your own opening post - "this time we have something tangible on the table"?
How are we supposed to ask questions of what has previously by your own admission been intangible? If there is now tangible information for us to base our questions on, why not provide it in advance of the meeting? At the moment we haven't been provided with even the basics of how this is going to work.
Ask away - what do you not know?
I'm sure GLS, REA or others will answer. Irony of ironies is Sid claiming Div has gone all "somner9" when I have to now recheck the top of a post to work out who made it, Sid or Som...!
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Will you be at the meeting to provide details on the alternative bid by Massone? I'm sure that SG has said he will not sell to that group. What has changed?
Balfy, why should I do that? It's not my place. The consortium will sell to whom they want to sell.
What has changed...? Maybe the fact that their preferred bidder has been forced into numerous changes to their buyout model, firstly by the SNP councillors in Renfrewshire Council, who hate the town and the football club and have done nothing but run both into the ground over the last few years; secondly by not enough fans getting involved despite newspaper, radio, tv, Internet, email, leafleting at matches and thirdly (now) by people still not getting that this is the one and only chance for us to see this come to pass abd getting bogged down in stuff that can really only be answered once the deal is done.
Stuart Dickson was right - St Mirren fans are too thick to understand that this is about the fans shaping the future of the club, not REA, GLS or anyone else. The fact that those 2 have had the limelight they have is because the fans have been lethargic and unwilling to be involved in the process (with the exception of a few), instead the fans have chosen to pick holes in something that they should have been offering to take an active role in forming.
Clearly this is still over people's heads, despite it being made as simple as is can, and the whole thing may fail due to typical Scottish laziness, ignorance and wee man mentality. We may be liquidated before R*ngers, for all I know...!
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Simply put, this is the best chance supporters of St Mirren will get have to be involved in the running of the club. It may not he perfect but it is a chance. Probably the only chance as Massone is waiting around the corner, ready to buy out the consortium and sell us down the shitter.
There may be questions, things may have been done poorly, communication may have been shite, people may doubt REA's motives, there are worries and uncertainties. However there will more than likely never be another chance to be in this position.
It is the chance, the time for us to make our mark in the history of the club an the town. We can get bogged down in questions about constitutions and annoyances about being left out or about the use of the members' bar or we can choose to be involved an shape it from the inside.
St Mirren is our club and Paisley is our town - I'm not going to miss this opportunity because of petty squabbling. We take the chance now or miss out - maybe forever.
I'm in!
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Sid, I've read the constitution and anyone hand picking me for a St Mirren project would be off their f**king rocker.
So far as I'm concerned the GLS offer makes little difference. Yes it means someone paying £25k has a direct route to the football board but that comes from the stock held in the 48% minority shareholding and there was never a one member one vote on the football board.
Like you I'd like to see more discussion around the technical aspect of this and I'd like a practical example of how the CIC works for community members but I dont think much has changed at all in the running of 10000hours
Can't disagree with any of this. StuDick - reasoned and rational...!
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The 1877 club members especially will have more influence than rank and file members. Straight off the bat we have seen one of them negotiate their way into an interim BoD position. What else will be negotiated with each £25K member as 10000 Hours get more and more desparate to reach their goal. Meanwhile the "rank and file" members get told by a few hand picked fans to keep the faith - it will all be okay after we have your money coming out of the bank when you will be committed to maintaining the payments of the CIC defaults on its payments and we are then right in the shitter.
The CIC is far from dead and REA is still the best person to lead it. The "rank and file" fans just need to be provided with the fine detail that will allow us to commit 100% to the CIC. The message from "in the know" fans seems to be that it will be able to happen whether the "rank and file" support want it to or not. If that's the case then why should "rank and file" fans commit their money to boost a retirement fund for BoD members? As much as I appreciate what the BoD have done for the club...they have plenty of cash of their own compared to most fans. That £10-a-month could be going into our own pension pots.
The community side has dropped, fan influence has been traded away, the debt implications have increased....where is the compelling argument for ran and file fans to sign up to this. We are now told that we should do it to keep the club out of someone elses hands...by placing into the hands of someone that doesn't value the club enough to pay for it with their own money.
If this is genuinely about inclusiveness, about the community..then where is the role for the existing St Mirren community....there are a number of supporters groups...this should be a no-brainer for SMiSA....surely the supporters groups that run buses to away games should be right at the core of this? If they aren't why not?
It is not about whether you are for the CIC or against it. It is about taking the time to understand what we are actually getting the club into and ensuring we are doing the right thing for the club. By all means keep an open mind; however we need to take a close look at what is being proposed. At the moment we are unable to do that as it is all smoke and mirrors.
The first paragraph is pure speculation, passed off as fact. Constitutionally there is no chance of this happening, and even if it does, it can be re-written whenever the majority want to by putting forward a motion at an AGM/EGM etc.
The rest of your post is all good and I agree. There is too little detail, too much happening behind closed doors, too little happening with regards the existing St Mirren "community" and the community groups that are required to make up a significant part of the debt repayment in the form of SRoI.
I wouldn't say it will happen if the R&F fans aren't involved - it simply can't - but it now requires significantly less of us due to the third tier that has been added (77 Club). The further away we get from the original model, the more complicated and less effective the thing becomes. I blame the EssEnnPee.
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You are a fool if you think this is gonna happen......It's a dead duck and I will only reply to you when it's over. Until then take care my friend.
Ok mate. You go for it - get your own fan buyout up and running. You make the links with the social funders and the community groups and the local businesses and the existing shareholders and the BoD an you get 1500 fans on board and get the constitution drawn up and all the admin in place and set up a company/charity/scio/CiC to facilitate it. You pay the outlay, do all the PR, get these fans to trust you and be willing to invest. Have all the answers to the likes of Sid and Somner. Get solicitors etc in board to make sure everything is above board and no-one is pumping you from behind. That's just off the top of my head.
And you better have it done in about 2-4 weeks cos if 10000Hrs fails, A N Other WILL own our club, we'll have no say and there will be nothing to invest in it or protect it. If what I've read is true...
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Can we get rid of REA now and start a forum for fan ownership. He has to go NOW! as 3 yrs is too long. He is a waste of space and time so we need to move forward with a new plan with new people. Move him out and surely someone can engage the support in a way he could never do. BWA should be the start if SG understands his shares are worth next to nothing.
I
FFS
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Fair enough...however....belief needs to be based on something and at the moment there is nothing concrete in terms of the d/m processes. You talk about just cancelling your direct debit - once the CIC has the 52% shareholding we will have to pay the tenner a month to facilitate the debt. We could be moving from an "if we fancy it" scenario to a genuine "or else" scenario. The CIC model is dependent entirely on rank and file supporters paying off the debt others are signing us up to in a power grab at SMFC. In all of this there is no real detail on the powers that the supporters will actually get in return.
Getting to pick the colour of the away strip is not fan power, that is just good customer service and a sensible strategy to sell more strips. Genuine fan power is having decision making powers on matters like the SPL vote and ticket pricing for disabled fans.
My previous view was that we were heading towards something that was about transparency, about community, about a fan-centric club. Deals appear to be being done that betray those values.
Initially there were three distinct groups. The structure was geared towards each group being represented at the club. It was supposed to have been replaced by OMOV. However, we are already seeing interim places on SMFC's BoD being allocated based on negotiations. We are seeing a stronger focus on commercials rather than community. We are seeing fans group excluded from the communications and the deals are being done behind closed doors and announced in press releases once decisions are made.
For me there needs to be a compelling reason to invest in the CIC. In the space of a month I have gone from being fairly comfortable about investing £3,000.00 for a 87 club membership...to being unsure about whether it is even wise to invest £10-a-month.
The majority of us want fan ownership, fan empowerment, fan representation, a community club, etc......I have a gut feel that this has now been compromised. I will be delighted if it is demonstrated that this is not the case. What I am not prepared to sign up to is something that will quickly be a massive disappointment to fans, see direct debits cancelled, leaving us with not enough CIC income to facilitate the debt.
There are still a number of unknowns in relation to the CIC - how it will actually function, the levels of monthly income required to maintian / repay the debt, what other activities the CIC can engage in using income generated from fans - the additional risk associated with that, amongst others.
The fans have rightly put 10000 Hourse in a position to progress; however the blind faith needs to be replaced by a full review of how the CIC will function and what risks are involved in it. Some might think that is being anti-CIC...I actually believe that is sensible pro-CIC behaviour.
10000 Hours have clearly been working aggressively on the commercial side of the CIC of late and also in negotiating the involvement of GLS and his own merry band of SRTBs. The assumption appears to have been that all St Mirren fans would fall into place with the announcement that GLS is involved.
I have been to all of the public meetings - one of my biggest concerns has been the absence of people who I would have expected to be there - home and away supporters that bleed black and white. For me 10000 Hours needs to reach out to all fans and really push this home with clear concise information about how this will work, and what the risks are. No marketing bollox, no hiding behind complexity, no staged objection handling.....just clear info. Better 3,000 fans at a fiver, than 600 fans at whatever they can afford over and above a tenner + special deals for bigger investors.
As always, long-winded but some good points. It's no secret that I was a big fan of mk1 CiC, as I had hoped to be involved at a community level with one, or maybe even two, community groups that I am involved with. For me mk2 was a step away from the community centred nature of 10000Hrs and there were questions as to the role that community members could play at that stage - however I let it go, assuming that once we were up and running it would all iron itself out and things would become clear. Now, with mk3, it seems we have taken a farther step from the genuine community buyout that we had all hoped for...
There are a few things to blame:
1. The EssEnnPee Cooncilors in Cotton St
2. Poor Communicatiok from 10000Hrs
3. Poor fan involvement from those who did know and were up for it - this is a fan/community buyout and should have been fan led. With REA being so silent, fans with various skills could/should have stepped up.
Please not, Somner9, Animal, Yul etc are not listed here cos they have have a negligible impact on the success or otherwise of 10000Hrs, except to add site traffic to B&W Army, giving Div more money and allowing him to invest in a 87 Club membership...!
The question is, where do we go from here? I tend to agree with BoW Saint - the correct thing to do us to sign up, be a part and shape the thing from the inside. The 77 & 87 Club members won't have more say than the "rank and file" members, who will outnumber them maybe 100x. So, with a good elected board, the shape would be able to be defined by the "genuine" fans. It may take a year or so, but it can happen and , I think, will happen. Somner is into plumbs if he thinks 10000Hrs is dead. It has more life now than it ever did and it will own the 52%! The simple question is, are you going to choose to be involved to make it what it should be, or are you going to cry from the sidelines, while others are part of shaping the future of St Mirren and making history?
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What were the reasons behind the KB? Was it to do with the pasty tax that would be incurred feeding the SRTB's?
They hate the town and the club. And they love thier own name in the paper and public conscience.
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The best thing about this thread is witnessing Sid's multiple online meltdowns and even more numerous u-turns! You must be dizzy by now, John! No?
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My interest in this thread hasn't waned any Sonny, but I must admit I'm not visiting as frequently due to the Jools/Parisi/Perthshire fiasco that general nonsense has deteriorated into over the last few weeks, I'm hoping for a return to normality shortly, but fear it won't last long as things usually go a bit daft when the schools get out for the holidays.
This is exactly the reason I'm not visiting as much either.
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Its what Somner dearly wants but now we are on version four of the cic it becomes an ever diluted influence in the proposed make up of 10000 hours latest go at this.
You are the very one who was against all of the previous "versions" of the fan ownership model. You have conjured up objections and imaginary obstacles and "smoking guns" at every turn. When the model has been redefined, you have found other reasons to try to hijack it. When it was redefined again - something that you had been shouting for, and there was nothing you could say against it, you turned to personal and corporate attacks on individuals and community groups involved in the process.
My great uncle - God rest him - Sanny Foulds used to say, "it isn't what a person says that shows what he truly believes. it's what a person does". You have slabbered on long enough about fan ownership and about how you are in favour of it, however all that you have practically done is work to prevent it from becoming a reality (it's a major "lol" that you've failed at that). You have refused to become involved - which is the very way you could influence the whole thing, you have refused to go to public meetings to voice your concerns (something that other, more courageous and less cowardly, people have done), all you have done is spout uneducated, misinformed, slanderous and frankly inconsequential nonsense on an internet forum - the same forum where people start threads about applying for jobs in Franky and Benny's and whether people in their gym are gay - and you expect to be taken seriously and listened to.
I hope, beyond all hope, that the community buyout goes through by the 4th July, firstly because it is simply the most secure and prosperous way forward for the club and also for the town and people to Paisley. Secondly because it will hopefully seal the end of having to read your shite on this forum. Here's to the CiC - the final nail in Somner9's coffin!
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Aye! I can' help but think that is it all over... A sad day.
Not!
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Not yet out of the deep pit as all bids appear to hinge on a CVA being approved.
From the HMRC site.
Introduction to Voluntary Arrangements
Occasionally exceptional reasons will cause us to decline proposals.(For a CVA)
Examples might include
•operating a policy of withholding payment of Crown money
A CVA might not be agreed by HMRC.
I like to think that it almost certainly won't be agreed by HMRC
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What a great thread! Very good points and all very well made. I struggled with Danny's formations, tactics, lineups and substitutions at times this season, but he has learnt from his mistakes and now has proven that he is a real, quality SPL manager. Well done Danny and the lads!
I would take issue with your semantics on the use of the word progress... Progress can only really be measured as an ongoing improvement, so to have one good season, I'd say it was a good season with bright prospects for the next. I wouldn't cal it progress yet. But that's not denying that we have improved, that things are bright and that it has been, overall, a good season!!!
Onwards and upwards!
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It really is a good deal and will be considered seriously in my house!
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How about no more windbagging until 10000 hours conclude their deal,... or not?
Is that an offer? I think I would please pretty much everyone.
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All most things would take under the CiC (unless there are legal or contractual issues) is 2 people, one to propose a motion and one to second it. That motion would then go to a vote of the full membership.
For instance someone could stand up at a meeting and say 'As the club essentially host the main event that brings so many people to the bar on a matchday, then the club should be entitled to a percentage of that income'
I am in complete agreement and I am aware of this. I was simply stating that even if this wast the case and the fans had no other powers (which isn't the case) it would be worth the CiC going through just to sway the SPL voting decisions.
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I'm aware of that Div but some people are focussing on minutiae of the bid, probably in an attempt to try and de-rail it. Things like bar income could easily be discussed and resolved by a members meeting once 10000 hours is up and running. Looking at the bigger picture the main issues for joining the CiC for myself are
The chance to try and help safeguard a sustainable future and protect the club from future predatory interest.
The chance to have a say on major issues about how Saint Mirren are run as a club, not the day to day running but things like how the club interact with the community, the match day experience and how the facilities could be used by the general public.
The chance to have a real say in how the club votes at SFA/SPL meetings.Other threads are going on about how the club might possibly vote regarding rangers yet here we are with a great chance to be the ones deciding how the club votes
Iinstead of being fans with laptops we would be fans with voices.
Even if none of the other positives were likely, this would be reason in itself to see the CiC come to fruition.
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I love today's building! (Was it yesterday's) Lovely wee set of flats now and just along the road from my humble abode... Sonny, you featuring any more Ferguslie Mills buildings...?!
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Ah at last, another that I didn't have to think about before guessing! The acorn type shapes are all over this building and some are strewn around the grounds too. Shame to see a nice old building like this going to rot, which it probably will. Also a shame as I'm sure many a good Buddie are buried there...
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Well guys no-one has worked out PICTURE 38. I am going to leave it a bit longer for identification so start looking! (Well you did want a tougher challenge!).
PICTURE 39 CLUE
I recognise that... Is it the west end? Or further west even?
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in 10000Hours Archive
Posted
Great job Div!!!