TopCat
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Posts posted by TopCat
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35 minutes ago, stlucifer said:
You were also suggesting that the results would have been different IF JG was in charge.
That's an assumption. Given the first two games we had under SR, I'm not sure I agree that was the most likely outcome. A bad run usually starts with a couple of losses and a drop in moral. If, as you suggest, the players tried harder under JG then the fault lies squarely with them.
I didn't assume it though, i said before it things may have got better or worse, we will never know.
The players are certainly at fault, no disputing that. Robinson has came in like a wrecking ball and pissed them all off, now they're not trying. Blame is on Robinson for his burn it all down attitude, and of course the players for chucking it so spectacularly.
We now need these same pissed off players who know they're not going to be here next year to keep us up over the next four (or six) games. That's why we are in deep, deep trouble.
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23 minutes ago, faraway saint said:
Like you did when you said we'd have finished 4th if the league had been stopped for covid? 🤣
Well that didn't happen did it
Not a maybe or maybe not.
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25 minutes ago, faraway saint said:
Best yet, absolutely brilliant. 🤣
And the inconvenient truth 😉
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16 hours ago, CraigyBoy said:
Clutching at straws with the anti Robbo posts... we were shite most of this season and this bollocks about 4th place was some mere second in time - we were in the hunt for top 6 in spite of some dire and woeful pre Robinson results. We were only in contention for top 6 because Aberdeen & Hibs played absolutely no where near there level - we didn't deserve it and we are where we are because we cannot defend and have zero intent going forward. This is not down to 1 manager and a handful of fixtures!!!!. Compared to last season this was a real disappointment and this goes back to the summer transfer window and our style of play when JG was in charge . Things haven't improved I grant you but it was not pretty this season loooong before Robbo arrived
🤷🤷🤷🤷
A mere second in time? When Jim left we were 6th, one point behind 4th with a game in hand (Against Dundee, which we went onto win). Had the season been called at that point due to a 18th COVID outbreak, we'd have finished 4th. What second are you talking about? Call it one point behind 4th with a game in hand against bottom of the league if you want, the point is the same.
Your second point is literally how league tables work. Your league position depends on how the other teams perform, are you saying that Ross County, United and Motherwell only made top six because Aberdeen and Hibs have been rubbish? Suppose you're right. St Johnstone are 11th because Dundee have been even worse than them. Killie just won the Championship because they were less rubbish than everyone else. You get compared to your peers, and a lot of them aren't very good, 'twas ever thus. Welcome to Scottish football.
'Compared to last season this was a real disappointment'
We were literally on exactly the same on points after 25 games this season as the previous season
That's the table on the day Jim left, 4th on PPG, and 13 points ahead of St Johnstone.
Here's the table from the season before after we'd played the same amount of games:
As the figures show, there hadn't been any kind of decline, we were motoring along just fine, comfortably mid table, for the second season in a row. Then Robbo got his hands on us, and dragged us kicking and screaming into a relegation fight. Lose on Saturday that gap from St Johnstone will have went from 13 points to 2 points in a 10 game period. An absolutely remarkable decline, and it's his fault.
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15 hours ago, stlucifer said:
If my last paragraph was pointless waffle because I speculated then your entire argument must come under the same bracket as it's entirely speculation.
i have been comparing things that actually have happened. You were pontificating on things that may or may not have happened, such as form maybe dropping off anyway if Jim had stayed. Certainly a difference there?
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14 hours ago, andrew87 said:
I fully recognise that under Robinson the performances, other than 45 minutes, against United have been dreadful but I don’t think we were world beaters under Jim. The difference is under Jim we were able to grind out results which we don’t look capable of at presentExactly, and grinding out results is all that's needed to be top six, as we showed up to February, when we were 4th on PPG. The ability to grind out results in this league is the difference between mid table obscurity and relegation. We certainly have never been and never will be world beaters - no one in Scotland is. We were however a competent mid table Scottish top flight side, as the league in the last two years has consistently showed. Something we weren't for over 30 years prior and something it seems like we no longer are.
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7 hours ago, Balmullo Bud said:
I’d happily take a draw and no injuries or suspensions to our 2 remaining fit centre halves (touch wood).
If the team can’t get themselves up for this one we’re in big trouble.Has one of Fraser, Shaughnessy or McCarthy picked up an injury?
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11 minutes ago, HSS said:
My worry if we go back to one stand is how to keep away fans out of the home sections I would like to think that any identified away fans would be ejected from the stadium but don’t know if the polis would be up for this as it’s a potential flash point
How do you stop away fans buying home tickets?
There's away fans in the home sections for all these games anyway, I had one sitting beside me the other week. Quite a nice guy actually 😁
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4 minutes ago, Slarti said:
Yep. But why is it significant that they got those 3 points in the lead up to the split? I'll answer that for you - it isn't.
In your opinion. More subjectivity - I'm out of this too.
Pretty simple really. Poor Livi, Aberdeen and Hibs got three games against a St Mirren team who weren't managed by Robbo. Lucky County, United and Motherwell only got two, and they filled their boots with three points in the other game, which was in the run up to the split. The latter three made then made the top six.
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18 minutes ago, Slarti said:
As I've already mentioned (maybe on another thread, can't remember), they're not directly comparable, there are many other factors at play other than the manager. You're the one who put the significance on playing them in the run up to the split as if that was the defining factor in why they made the top 6.
Well it was, if you take the three points they got from us off any of them they don't make the top six. Of course, there are other factors at play, i am not disputing that. One of the factors that helped them is they got to play Robbo's St Mirren instead of Goodwin's St Mirren.
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2 hours ago, Slarti said:
So if our last 5 games before the split had been Celtic, Sevco, Hearts, St Johnstone and Dundee then they wouldn't be in the top six because they beat us?
The fact is that if any of their wins over the first 33 games had actually been a loss (that sounds silly, but you know what I mean) then they wouldn't have made the top six. In fact, a draw rather than a win could have seen them miss out.
Well in the final round of fixtures we play everyone again. In the final round we played Aberdeen, Livi and Hibs before Robinson, lost none of them and none of the three made top six. We played County, Well and Dundee Utd after Robinson, lost the lot and they all made the top six. Of course there are other factors at play, but i bet the fans of the three that missed out wished they got a shot at us under Robinson. Hibs in particular, that team they beat easily on Saturday played nothing like the team that went to Easter Road and beat them a few weeks prior. Oh well them's the breaks.
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5 minutes ago, faraway saint said:
Surprised they got enough points only from us to make it into the top six. 😉
Of course they made it over the course of the season, but the three wins against us were in the run up to the split. Had any one of them lost to us they don't get enough to make it. Poor Hibs and Livi had to play us before Robinson got appointed, and missed out as a result 😁
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9 hours ago, faraway saint said:
All subjective but when the new manager took over he played the top 6 in his first 7 league games, as I recall.
All the "could have, might have" points posted by people who either have a soft spot for Goodwin, who I always believed was average, or have quickly decided Robinson is shite, are irrelevant.
We are where we are.
This weeks game is massive, even a point could almost be enough to see us hold off the dreaded play off place.
No doubt a loss would see us really in the shite.
Yeah from memory neither United, Motherwell or County were in the top six when they beat us. They all made it though, because they beat us.
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11 hours ago, andrew87 said:
Motherwell and Ross County are teams we need to beat at home to make top 6. We were crap against Motherwell. Not that they were much better but we were very lucky to be winning and their equaliser was well deserved even if it did need a gift from us. As for the Ross County game Alnwick opening criticised the team for how bad we were. We only got a draw in that game because of the saves Jak pulled off.
FWIW I think if Jim had stayed we wouldn’t have been great but we would have got a result from somewhere and scraped top 6.We literally didn't have to beat them to make top six, we were in the top six having not beaten them. Motherwell have won just one game since Boxing Day (against us of course) and they're in the top six. You remember the County game very differently from me incidentally:
More posession, more shots on goal (27 ffs), more shots on target. We weren't great that night but if anyone deserved to win it, it was us. We had two shots on target on Saturday by the way, the drop off has been unreal.
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9 minutes ago, Slarti said:
No, that's not what I said at all.
You can objectively compare two sets of raw data without that having any bearing on things not included, that is, the result has no bearing on anything else. Also, things can be objectively subjective or subjectively objective (in fact, most things are, in reality, one or the other) as well as being purely objective or subjective.
Anyway, as I said in the previous post, I'm out.So in summary, you can't compare them because they were different games of football happening at different times. But if you did compare them Robinson is doing worse.
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Yep he was a great signing by Jim. He's the best goalie i've ever seen at Saints and i'm not surprised he's getting a big deal down south.
Good luck to him 👏
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37 minutes ago, stlucifer said:
I agree with Slarti on this point. There are other variables to consider. You HAVE to take into account the players and their reaction to losing the guy who brought them into the squad. Losing JG at such a crucial time must have had some sort of impact. Then having another guy walk in trying to put his stamp on the team must also have an effect. There was no chance of a new manager upward bounce given the previous results since the turn of the year.
I also still think there was a good chance things would have turned sour even if JG had remained at the helm. I certainly don't think we pulverised teams during that undoubted purple patch. I do think we might have scraped a couple of draws as that was Jim's speciality.
That's part of the variable we have considered. You're spot on, we used to have a manager who the players loved playing for and as such he had them punching above their weight. We were 4th on PPG the day he left, that was not the 4th best squad in the country. Last paragraph is pointless waffle. Things may have turned worse? Maybe. Maybe they'd have got better. Most likely they'd have stayed about the same, and we would now be in the top six and fighting for Europe. We will never know.
28 minutes ago, Slarti said:If you think that the league table shows direct comparisons then you are an idiot.
Yeah why compare anything? Might aswell just close football down because it's all pointless anyway
This forum man 😆
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3 hours ago, Slarti said:
Why 8? Why not 7? Or 4? Or why don't we just take the best 1 game "run" from the larger runs? Anybody can be selective and use data to "support" their point. SR could end up with 1.25 PPG, Goodwin was on 1.27 PPG (this season) when he left, would that make them about even? The point is that it doesn't matter what you compare, absolutely nothing is directly comparable as absolutely nothing can be taken in isolation. Well, it can be, but it shouldn't be. Comparisons can give you a rough idea, but they prove nothing in situations like this. Even your comment about an easier set of games is debatable, unless you take into account everything surrounding the games. On paper, yes, in reality, not so much.
Might aswell do away with league tables then if nothing is directly comparable 😆
So if Robinson wins his last four games (he won't) against teams from the bottom half he will still have a lower PPG than Goodwin? My word, never realised it was that bad!
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12 minutes ago, Slarti said:
I usually try to avoid subjective matters on here but surely the time to compare "worst tuns" would be, at a minimum, when the runs are of equal length. SR could end up with 3, 4, 5, 6 or 9 points from 11 games. Would he then be automatically 50/66.6/83.3/100/150% the manager JG is?
I await all the replies which are consistent with the replier's pre-held position but which read into this things that I haven't mentioned.
In reality, no 2 runs are directly comparable, yet people still do it. I know WHY they do it, I'm just always confused about why they think it proves anything meaningful.
Well you could pick the worst eight game run from that eleven game sequence and it's still more than the three points that Robinson has got. You're right though, they aren't really comparable. Particularly now when we are in post split world and we are coming up against the worst other five teams in the league, and three of them are at home. Robinson has so far delivered a worse run than Goodwin's worst, with an easier set of games.
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We'd been leaking goals like nobodies business before the weekend (14 in 4 games) so you can tell Robbo thought we need to keep a clean sheet for starters. He stuck five at the back and three in deep midfield. Of course we still lost without keeping a clean sheet, and the flip side was we hardly created a single chance. In the games we had lost just prior (rangers excpeted) we had been scoring (2 v Well, 2 v Hearts and 1 v Dundee Utd), but he took that threat away on Saturday, without plugging the gap at the back.
I felt one of the main reasons for that was Ronan playing in a much deeper role, which doesn't suit him. Connor is one of the best Saints players I've ever seen, the team must be built specifically to maximise his game winning ability, after all he has won us games himself several times. We must get him further forward on Saturday, where he can best hurt St Johnstone:
Alnwick
Fraser-Shaughnessy-Dunne-Tanser
Gogic-Power
Jones-Ronan-Henderson
Greive
Squad wise we are stronger than the Saintees. If our attitude is right we don't lose (we haven't lost any of the three previous games between us this season). My problem is i just don't think the attitude will be right and the Saintees will want it more than we do, and as such we will lose again. I hope I'm wrong!
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13 hours ago, bazil85 said:
I think he’s already been recalled from QP mate. Not sure why he’s not in the match-day squad though.
He has been, he wasn't getting a game at QP so no point in him being there. Definitely one for the future, not the present.
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On 2/17/2022 at 6:56 PM, Mainstand Sweary Mob said:
With it being mutual consent does that mean we have had to pay him the remainder of what his contract would have been, if so, it's not like you can say it's freeing up a wage for a free agent as we would then have had to fork out the money to pay him off instead of having the money there to use on a free agent?
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Mutual consent is as it says on the tin really. Say the value remaining on Erwin's contract was £50k, we may have offered him £25k to leave, there's been a bit of negotiation and he's taken £30k. So it will be less than the value of the contract, but still a lump sum. Our golden era of the mutual consent was Danny Lennon, he was giving them out like sweeties toward the end of his reign.
Good to see Lee doing well abroad, i feel his game may be better suited to outside Scotland.
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13 hours ago, andrew87 said:
My thoughts exactly and yet there’s been a massive drop off in results and he very quickly and very publicly pointed the finger at certain unnamed players. In Robinson’s defence some of the performances before Goodwin left were pretty poor. Motherwell and Ross County could easily have pumped us at home.The Motherwell game when we were winning till the 94th minute? County was 0-0 with nothing in it, didn't think either team deserved to win that. None of the performances this season under Goodwin (apart from Dundee at home) were anything like as bad as what we've seen in the last month IMO.
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12 minutes ago, CraigyBoy said:
As said previously- i am not defending this run , it's a bloody shocker & certainly worrying... But, I do object to the constant diatribe against the manager whilst the playing staff who have demonstrated this season they are "streaky" at best seem to escape scrutiny 🤷🤷. You can slice & dice each part of our season to suit whatever agenda you have ,in isolation we go from being the worst team in the league to the best team in the league, in fact we are neither. But 2 separate managers have now presided over absolutely shocking runs and that ,to me, definitely highlights major player deficiencies.
But they haven't though. Six draws and five defeats is not a shocking run. It's a bad run, but we still aren't losing most games. Eight defeats out of nine certainly is a shocking run. You must see that the current run under Robinson is much worse than the run from October to December?
How much longer do we give the manager
in General St. Mirren Discussion
Posted
The only contract that could possibly be off the table is Tanser. Millar and Flynn weren't getting deals regardless and they don't play, Alnwick was leaving anyway, and i doubt any decision had been made either way on 34 year old Alan Power. No one else is out of contract. What has happened is that he's told players who are under contract for next year that they aren't part of his plans and they're free to leave in the summer. Which would be fair enough if we were safe, and i think he thought we were. To the surprise of no one, there was then a huge change in attitude and we went from a team who was hard to beat to one who loses every week We now need these same players who know they're leaving in a few weeks to dig in and get us the results we are going to need to keep us in the league.
We are in huge trouble. Despite this, we still have a decent chance of staying up, we had so many points on the board before Robbo arrived that even he is going to struggle to relegate us.