civilsaint
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Posts posted by civilsaint
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It's neither desperate nor ridiculous and if you can't see that then you're incredibly naive.
There is considerable legal and constitutional advice supporting both sides of the argument. What that tells me is that the settlement will be neither and will, instead, be political. Politically, it makes sense to get Scotland into the EU as smoothly as possible. That's what will happen when we vote Yes.
On the other hand, Scotland joining the EU creates a precedent for separatists. It makes sense for member states to get it right over getting it done quickly, otherwise there could be a whole stream of separatists trying to break the EU into lots of tiny territories. Every single nation has a veto, it only takes one nation to be unhappy with what's on the table to delay things. Of course it will be a political decision. Better Together have said that all along. Politics isn't simple and that's part of the problem.
Your misrepresentation claim doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I'm certainly not naive on the subject. The very fact that you expect there to be political negotiations gives credence to Better Together's position that there are significant risks involved in voting for independence in regard to joining the EU. It is the SNP that fails to recognise any risk.
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More deflection whilst you ignore the point I made. Good for you.
You're right, BT have played a blinder. They have given the impression that Scotland will find it difficult if not impossible to get entry into the EU without actually saying so. The fine art of misrepresentation.
I've not ignored what you said. Thankfully you, at least, recognise that the initial post was factually incorrect and that Tony was subsequently incorrect. Better Together have never said "Scotland wouldn't get into the EU". As for the "impression" they give, that is ridiculous. Better Together's position is entirely clear and supported by considerable legal and constitutional and academic opinion with the UK and the EU. Their position is supported by the current President of the European Commission, the President Elect of the European Commission and the current president of the European Council to name a few.
Whilst nothing is certain, to call Better Together's position a misrepresentation you'd have to be pretty desperate. There position is entirely reasonable and logical.
Still, those who have made false allegations as to what Better Together have said, haven't had the balls to accept their error. Maybe you should stick your "misrepresentation" label on them.
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Still no evidence of Better Together claiming that "Scotland wouldn't get into the EU".
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Another failure to support the initial claim. At no time have Better Together, or it's directors or it's employees or it's spokespersons ever said "Scotland wouldn't get into the EU".
The continued failure to accept this strengthens the point made previously.
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There's a difference between seeking accuracy and truth and talking to people as though they were completely retarded.
Still, seven pages in, those who have made false allegations have failed to acknowledge their misunderstanding or deceit.
I have to say, "retarded" is description I'd rather not see on here. But none the less, the lack of response and acceptance vindicates my use of the English language. Nothing I have said is offensive or unwarranted.
Unfortunately it seems that you have no problem with individuals spreading false accusations to further their cause. That says more about you than it does about me.
These people can yet redeem themselves. I don't hold grudges. I simply ask they the act with integrity, which we have not seen thus far.
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I am aware of what you asked - you asked me to show you the quote. Since we've never met (as far as I know) and we are using the medium of t'interweb to communicate I would really need to find a quote and post the link. But you know all this and are looking at cheap points. Since you seem to be adept at finding better together screen shots you could probably find it yourself, check your twitter or facebook...
I'll never find something that doesn't exist.
Your continued inability to support your point tells us all we need to know. Not for the first time in this thread a false allegation was made by a YES supporter.
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I see it as no official statement being made by any side to be honest it's all opinions being expressed. The reason I posted this thread is because it's the first time we have heard an opinion coming from within the EU. The UK government has been on the phone to world leaders putting pressure on them to speak out on independence. This has more to do with NATO defence and the storing of nuclear subs and nothing to do with interest of the people of Scotland no matter what side you are on.
No it isn't.
Barrosso (President of the European Commission) has had his say.
Van Rompuy (President of the European Council) has had his say.
Juncker (President elect of the European Commission) has had his say. He agrees with the other two.
You started a thread, very explicitly accusing Better Together of saying that "Scotland would not get into the EU". That was a false allegation. Can you not accept that?
And right on time, this pops up:
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Would say it's quite clear if you are better together then you read what you want to read. The same as if you are in the YES camp you read what you want to read. These voters will not change their minds no matter what is put in front of them. What has to be worked on from both sides is the floating voter in the run in to the election.
No matter what happens Scotland will gain more self governance power Westminster has got a bit of a fright and realizes just how much it needs Scotland.
That is true for a certain proportion of the population. Some can rise above party lines and discuss objectively. Others become entrenched unfortunately. The debate can be had with some level of integrity.
You still fail to acknowledge that you started a thread with false allegations about Better Together.
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You're probably right but it's certainly the impression they've been trying to get across. They were all over Juncker's "no new members for 5 years" and how massive a blow it was to the SNP's plans.
http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/juncker-ends-salmonds-european-dream
Pity Juncker's office had to spoil it for them the next day by saying that it didn't apply to Scotland.
Indeed.
Similarly, a few days prior the SNP did the exact same thing. They claimed that Juncker was a man they could work with "unlike Barroso". A day later Juncker said, "Mr Van Rompuy... and Mr Barroso were perfectly clear. I don’t have to change a word as far as their declarations are concerned.”
At the time both organisations were relying on pubic statements that, on the face of it supported their position. Unfortunately for both, there was confusion.
So, nothing has changed. We still don't know the entry route, we still don't know the entry timescale and we still don't know the conditions of entry. That leaves the Nationalists in a pretty poor position. Given there is a considerable body of doubt over their assertions.
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It's this sort of smug arrogant irrelevant nonsense which puts people off BT.
Almost every single BT supporter on this forum indulges in it.
It's the reason why BT can't shake Yes despite the apparently obvious benefits of staying in the Union. Less than 50% are prepared to vote for this with less than 2 months to go.
It's like being back in the playground.
Is there a BT supporter on this forum who isn't intent on talking down to Yes voters and generally behaving like a twat?
This has nothing to do with talking people down. It has everything to do with highlighting false allegations that people are throwing about.
Unless you are saying that it is entirely appropriate to fabricate allegations?
If seeking accuracy and truth is "acting the twat", then I'm guilty as charged and I hope all Better Together supporters are too.
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I don't have the time civilsaint. You try typing better together scotland wont get into Eu into a search engine. There's hundreds of results from the last month, never mind 2012/13.
I didn't ask how many results come up on Google when you type arbitrary words into the search engine. I asked you to support a claim you made that I know to be false. Better Together, nor any of their directors, nor any of their employees, nor any of their spokespersons have ever said "Scotland wouldn't get into the EU". That is a blatant fabrication that you and your Nationalist pals are more than happy to peddle.
I suggest that is why you have been unable to provide the quotes. Nothing to do with your lack of time.
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Have you managed to dig out those Better Together quotes yet stating that Scotland would not get into the EU?
Or is it proving rather difficult (as they don't exist)?
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Here's one from 4 days ago,
http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/no-campaign-accused-of-dishonesty-on-eu-1-3479295
however I was actually thinking of quotes from months ago. I'll try and find them
That link does not show what you claim it does.I does however contain complete assertion from Nicola Sturgeon that Scotland automatically continues as a member state. There is a significant body of expert opinion that casts doubt on that, yet the SNP continue to state it as fact.
Please do find some actual quotes where BT say Scotland won't get into the EU.
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I did, what part of what Better Together wrote as i posted don't you understand.
Alex Salmonds dream of a separate Scotland quickly re-joining the EU lies in tatters today after the new President of the European Commission said there would be no new EU member states for 5 years.
If it was accurate then why did the official spokeswoman say it wasn't.
It was accurate. No one (except you for some absurd reason) is claiming that Juncker didn't say that. It is a matter of public record that he said it and his source/spokesperson did not deny it.
Whether or not that is actually what he meant, it is what he said. Maybe it was lost in translation, maybe there's another reason. Heaven knows.
Contrary to what you say, you still haven't posted an accurate quote where Better Together say Scotland wouldn't get into Europe.
You're simply evidencing the point made earlier about Disingenuous Yes supporters damaging their own cause.
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That was an exact quote taken from the Better Together website.
http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/juncker-ends-salmonds-european-dream
And you'll see above It wasn't "a senior source." as you claimed
You still haven't shown me where Better Together have said the Scotland wouldn't get into the EU.
All you've done is shown me an article with an entirely accurate quote from Mr Juncker stating that there will be no new members for 5 years and an entirely (at the time) accurate blog post. Juncker's people have since been clarified his loose language. Juncker has also said that he agrees with Mr Barosso's comments on the matter.
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Show me.
15th July
Alex Salmond’s dream of a separate Scotland quickly re-joining the EU lies in tatters today after the new President of the European Commission said there would be no new EU member states for 5 years.
That was exactly what Juncker said. A "senior EU source" has since clarified his loose language. It doesn't answer my question.
Show me exact quotes where Better Together have said that Scotland would not get into Europe.
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Spokespersons for better together, no thanks have previously said that we wouldn't get into EU.
Show me.
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The original post on of this thread is an appalling misunderstanding of what has gone on before.
Better Together has not ever said Scotland could not get into the EU.
The questions and uncertainty relate to the route for gaining entry, the timescale for gaining entry and the terms of entry. All of these valid and extremely important question remain today.
Unfortunately most nationalists and the Scottish Government are unwilling to acknowledge the risks associated with these issues and are selling "independence" on a false risk profile. The Scottish Government's position is mere assertion and fantasy.
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I think it might be Sheffield United
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Danny Lennon wasn't stabbed in the back. He was given a fixed term contract which both he and the club honoured. He knew, as did everyone else, when that arrangement was due to expire.
Prudence is good.
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Either way, Danny deserves to know sooner rather than later. Decision should have been taken to day.
Poor personnel management from the club IMO.
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TBH it isn't a decision I would like to have to make. There are valid and persuasive arguments on both sides.
Whatever they decide, I'll be fine with.
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Had quite a long chat with her a few years ago very charming lady and extremely proud of her Scottish roots.
That is my worst nightmare. Eddi speaking about Scottishness is the most cringe worthy, depressing scenario I can think of. There's nothing charming about the woman.
Better Together - No You Can't Join The Eu - Eu Yes You Can Join
in General Nonsense
Posted
You are showing your ignorance on the matter now. As far as the EU are concerned Scotland is not "a nation in its own right". The EU has 28 nations, Scotland is not one of them. As far as the EU are concerned Scottish separatists are exactly the same as other separatists. You might not like that and it might not suit your position, but it is the reality.
Interesting that omit Yes Scotland's jumping on Juncker's comments and misrepresenting his position in their comparison to Barossso only for Juncker to come out the following day and support Barosso's analysis. Both camps got their fingers burned that week but you focus on one whilst ignoring the other. It doesn't help your argument.