TsuMirren

The comparison is only that the fans would be in power, after that I certainly wouldn't want us turning in to Ebbsfleet either.

The way it was explained to me, which was in broad terms, was that all club buy outs involve a degree of debt. Don't quote me though, there will be members of this forum who have had that portion of it explained much better. I'm obviously also not the spokesperson for Richard by any means. As I look at it, it's a better option than someone like Massone (no point discussing offers that didn't match the 2 million). The structure I was shown looks like it will work, the idea of getting fans and local companies on board is exactly what we should be doing and he's right that we should be using the facilities at the ground better. As I said at Ebbsfleet, there'll be nobody to blame but ourselves from the point we take over. If there's an idea (bar at the club for example) it'll be up to us to take it on, find money for the playing budget etc etc etc all ours.

Without scrolling through, everything I know has pretty much been discussed. The purchase will be funded by long term repayment through getting businesses to sign up to the CIC, whilst if memory serves me right the money paid by the fan portion (forecast at 300) will go towards season by season running costs over and above what goes in now. If you look at the logistics of SG etc wanting the money now then I'm assuming loan/grants for actually doing the up front business. I'll be honest and say I was thinking more about what happens after the £2 million is paid and how the community and fans are engaged from there. Had I sensed Richard was an idiot without a plan then I'd have dug a bit more, but he's a director in a fairly succesful company and appears to have done his research. He also has a lot more down on paper with regards to the future vision and structure than the MYFC venture I was involved in down south. I can't really comment on Provans or Carbrini/JD Sports, it is sad seeing Provans lose the contract...pretty sure my dad used to do the accounts for the old Provan store across from the Museum...but it could be that there's a bigger picture. Does AP not have contracts with other clubs though?

Does anyone know who and when March was offered as a deadline/milestone for further information? When I spoke with Richard he did state it didn't have to be March, whilst I don't recall SG mentioning dates in any recent interviews. I'm not entirely sure what the average fan can do to help, have a chat with Richard and then make suggestions being the obvious one. The obvious questions shines like a beacon, that being is a public forum really the correct place to outline exactly how the purchase of Saint Mirren football club will be put together. The same fans who slam DL for missing out on Gow are asking RA to basically lay bare all of his negotiations...okay, less chance of competitors stealing it for Saints but they may take it elsewhere and I have a sneaky suspicion Motherwell are looking to do something the same. Here's a simple way to help, surprisingly it's not wind up people on a forum and act like a bit of a twat. If you know of a local company who you think could get involved with the club and would benefit from it then get in touch with Richard and let him know, he is from Ayrshire so doesn't know the scene. Saints for example, Chivas... Of course, if you've written a 2,000 word article on how you could do it better then feel free to post that on here!

We're not the first though, Clyde and Stenhousemuir are CIC run...are Stirling or is that a provident society? In each of those three instances it's very much the final throw of the dice, the last straw so to speak. I'll even throw Ebbsfleet United in there, a club who changed their name to get some cash from Eurostar then jumped at the MYFC money and utilised Will Brooks' naivety to work the deal in the clubs favour whilst screwing over the MYFC members. From what I've read and been told I see absolutely no final straw or wish to hoodwink everybody. SMISA have wanted to get a seat on the board, now it'll be possible for fans to have that chance (I believe the fans portion of the CIC may have as many as 5 slots on the club board and slots on the management board of the CIC itself). So, we'll have a say of control in the club and a say of how the CIC itself is run. Some members of this forum have discussed Richard "getting members and fans on board". I see nothing wrong with that, I don't think any (those I know of) are sheep and will blindly just follow. There's a need for information and a need to challenge, if that means some people contact Richard and sit down with him then where's the harm. It beats how things worked at MYFC...not going to go on about it here, but catch me in private and I'll discuss it a bit more. The other aspect that a lot of people above have touched on is the current state of the club and the leagues. I think we know we've little chance of 7,000 at home vs Hibs for example, but would it not be nice to get 5 and try to push for 7 even knowing we might not get there. OF fans won't come to see us anymore as they can watch their games on TV or live internet feeds every single week and the local community is all we have. Fergie got them all together with a bit of work, maybe as a collective we can bridge the gap of not enough people doing the work and get away from the "I'll give you a jacket and tie, you go talk to them" mentality we have at the moment.

Also noticed Motherwell are looking at an exciting opportunity offering wider ownership... If it's anything close to a CIC model we really need to get in there first so we can start on a strong "only top flight UK club..." style marketing campaign.

To be honest, I'd like to see the selling consortium hand over the 52% to the CIC with a payment plan agreed for the £2 million that their shares are reputed to be worth. The club are at a point now where support is going to continue to dwindle unless something major happens, the almost inevitable SPL vote for a 10 team league will also hasten that. That major isn't going to be a new manager, major investment or a sudden vote for a 16 or 18 team league that might just give the club room to breath. I realise those Directors want their money, but don't they also want a vibrant...by Scottish terms...club. Heck, for £10 a month they could join the CIC anyway and possibly even stand for election to the board.

As previously requested John, can you substantiate that? Just where does this intimation come from? It seems highly strange that a Saint Mirren fan would come on here trying to turn people against the only really valid offer on the table for taking the club forward. The fans want involved, surely if you're a fan you'd want involved, and the CIC proposes that. If you don't want to do some work and push the club on, if the apathy is so bad that there's truely no point for you then fair enough...let everyone else decide though.

As a start animal, you could always go and read about a CIC and how it works. As mentioned already you could also speak to Mr Atkinson, after which you'd hopefully realise there are legal and commercial implications to making some things known. These things could also be detrimental to YOUR club, assuming you are actually a fan. Having been involved at Ebbsfleet United I'm already happy that the person leading up the CIC isn't in it for himself (Will Brooks took a wage and his company took a cut of any MYFC member fees), there's engagement with the fans, Mr Atkinson is reading the forums and contacting members, there are some very good ideas (none of which we want stolen prior to SMFC having a chance to adopt them) and there appears to be a generally good take up with businesses in the community. SMISA also look to be genuinely engaged and happy with things, as opposed to the Fleet Trust who were just happy to accept MYFC's cash...as were Ebbsfleet to be perfectly blunt. There's a promise of real fan involvement at club and board level, I certainly don't see any indication that people will be getting called dishonest or insincere by members of the CIC. If you read up on a CIC you'll see that it's not a monster looking to steal the crown jewels and sell it on. Sadly, it's also not a huge investor promising to plough millions in to the club and run it from his pocket...issue there obviously being what happens when he gets bored or it becomes totally unsustainable. Look at it another way...if let's say 20 or so local companies get involved and the CIC do sell off the ground or put the club into huge debt then what would that do to their stock? As a collective, Richard, anyone else at Maxi, local companies, local groups, the local council, fans and football fans worldwide who become involved, there is no way the club would be allowed to be destroyed from within. I'm not sure exactly how SMISA will come in. You can argue it'd be double effort to have a seperate supporters association when the CIC will have a members group of it's own. I don't see why any SMISA member wouldn't want to get involved or put money to the CIC as it would go direct to the club and the former SMISA member would have more of a say, as opposed to contributing to purchase of shares. We also had the player fund during TH's promotion season, again why couldn't that be done and give us the chance to bring players in.

Abramovic and Mileson are special cases, whilst I've no idea if Eddie Thomson was the overall 50%+ shareholder or if he was a majority shareholder with the ability to invest more...I have assumed that the Thomson's must own 50% plus though. In the CIC instance it would own the 52% and would provide the Chairman, but you would also have CIC members on the board and as mentioned through this thread that would see fans having a say and with more than the SMISA "let's hope we can get a seat on the board". The most worrying thing about the CIC for me is it not going through and Gilmour etc then going back out to, what must have been poor offers (for them and the club), and asking if the interest is still there. Just what sort of investor would be interested in a club where the fans didn't care enough to take it on? I'd also like to highlight that from what I've heard and been told, by others and Richard, this isn't along the lines of the Ebbsfleet model or the other CIC's in Scottish football. Ebbsfleet was initially about "outsiders" and the gimmick of Pick The Team, plus it was being run by someone who quite frankly lucked out by being the first to try it and having a few media contacts. I could waffle on about what was wrong with Ebbsfleet until sometime next week, but will leave that until the discussions about how we should operate if this goes through. Saint Mirren doesn't have third parties squeezing the life out of the club, has a good stadium, a training complex and we can point to a time when we had crowds that could fill the current ground. Yes we're all a bit apathetic, but the club is running break even and the potential is there for larger crowds...we just need to entice people back and show what a club working together with the fans can do.

Poz, Very much doubt it mate. Even in the early days it would have been by committee. For modern day it's been the board with a chairman at the front be it Todd, Craig, Kane, Paton, Gilmour or whomever.

The one, well major one I suppose as there will be more, issue would be the loss in through the gate income this could create across the season. I don't have the ration split of adults to children per match, but the club will and the main point in this is that post CIC buy out of the 52% we would all have the potential to gain access to the information of feed views in to those who do (I'm not talking about 3 running the show or anything like that). As a starter, would it be better to give every school child in Paisley and Renfrewshire the option to request a voucher that allows them in to one match for free? Would that see a kick in return business or merchandise sales? In answer to Davidg, I can't speak for anyone else but I've spoken with Richard...pretty obvious considering Div offered to pass on my number earlier in the thread.

I know, but it is a bit silly entering it into this debate.

Shull, a lot of us say that. There's no way Saints can campaign to do it by themselves though. What would happen is we enter in to talks and offer players money they absolutely know they can beat elsewhere, we miss out, bring in highly inferior players and everything goes down the swanny. I'm sure the players we've brought in recently have been on less, whilst obviously each 1K increment in support would allow us to bring in more and offer more.

Saint Mirren Ltd is not becoming a CIC though, the CIC has been formed and will take on the 52% of the shares. There's no "no way back for Saint Mirren", no slicing and dicing, no asset stripping and no "we're here to run the club, trust us". It's all about each of us, if you want to learn more then contact Richard and if you want to mouth off then fair enough...each to their own. Even if the CIC sold every player, the ground and Ralston all money would have to go back in to Saint Mirren.

Shull, It'll still be people from the local community. Bud the Baker, As far as I'm aware, shares in the CIC won't be available and investors/members won't receive shares in CIC. It will be 1 person 1 vote and each scenario where someone will become involved will see them get "bang for their buck". Once setup it'll then be up to the overall membership to decide where they want things to go. If you think £1 to get in is good for the club then propose it and back it up with a financial profile of how the gap will be filled to run the club on a break even basis. Likewise if you want a bar, propose it and if you want to provide streaming match coverage for overseas members or fans propose it. Quite frankly, if you've ever had an idea that would benefit YOUR club then dig it out, dust it off and put it forward. At the moment though it's all still in the planning and the building. Trust me that having been involved in the Ebbsfleet project you want it planned properly and implemented at the right time.

The fans and people from the local community will be running the club. Who does Massone support? Who would any Pole support? Who would the mythical "big name in Scottish football" talked about by Chic Young support?

Not close. Remember that Brierly was mates with Hugh Scott at Morton with all sorts of rumours about Inverclyde United.

The main points are that it'll be our club, the community will be involved, fans will get a chance to have their say, nobody can sell off the ground and no single individual will be able to come in and do whatever. Even now we're hearing more about Massone, such as Dundee paying a fee for Griffiths and it just disappearing. Saints have cut their cloth so money coming in can only add to the club's development on and off the park, we may even see an adopt the player scheme or something like that. To the doubters, as Div has pointed out just drop Richard a line and see if anything sparks of how you can assist. This'll sound all very idyllic, but Saints fans will genuinely have nobody to shout at if this works expect themselves. What I do know is that there's a lot of differences to the Ebbsfleet model, there's certainly more thought and expertise going in to this. We have someone in Richard who is very genuinely looking to get people involved as opposed taking the money and failing to do his part. There's also scope to do things that Ebbsfleet/MYFC just were not up for doing in any shape or form.

That to me is an important aspect, certainly Ebbsfleet were kept afloat by director funding and have some quite frankly unbelievable ideas above their station prior to being taken over. The community and fans have been important to pushing Clydebank forward (okay that's the juniors), plus we've already seen previous drives where the wider Saints community got involved (player funding, SMISA and Saints Aid for example) so there's certainly potential there. It appears to me that it's almost a final option for Clyde, a club who didn't appear to have cut their cloth to suit previously, and Stenny's move looks to be in line with their artificial pitch being available for community use.

Maybe he's hoping to drum his views in to us!

Certainly less pressure than my mate Kevin's baws felt when he caught one in the nads during the 5 a side tournament under the Caley Stand. haha

Not entirely true, but then I'm not even sure a CIC can take on loans or even get itself in to debt. I've dealt with provident societies before, really need to read up on CIC's. Back to the debt though, Southampton were docked points when their owning company went in to administration and just through association with the CIC it must certainly be possible that would be the same for Saint Mirren. The paying full wack for the shares is, again, something that hit Ebbsfleet United. Luckily I don't think there are any side deals with third parties, for example a leisure company looking after the training complex, to further muddy the waters. At EUFC it was a case of "thanks for the £1.2 million, now what will you do?" - very little thanks for saving the club, which I suppose is mirrored by our current state in a way. Fans will need to look at this with new eyes so to speak, with everything being done with as much transparency as possible.

Gach, lost my original post...try again. I was on the board at Ebbsfleet United, a club run something along the lines of the CIC model. I've a number of issues with it and, hopefully, can get a chance to put them to Mr Atkinson. Not convinced it can work though, but it doesn't mean I don't have a few ideas of how it could. The major plus is that, unlike Ebbsfleet, this should be accepted by locals and isn't saddled by pick the team or other gimmicks.

I actually prefer Danny's press statement after the game to Gus and his "we have an honest group of players...". That said, it's not like there's no hiding place or any sort of scope for a January clear out and the players know it.