animal

Yes so am I but I don't work for a company which is trying to kid on that the community are in control of it.

The 'third tier' came as a great surprise to everyone I spoke to tonight. I have to ask. Why was it missing from the document posted to us all ?

In the end I suspect they will eventually be all paid out of the CIC members contributions.

Yes but the important fact is that the CIC Board will be completely in the control of the unelected Executive Board above it.

The Executive Board may well have spent time on this but we are being asked to pay for this fairly risky financial experiment. And we are being told that the 'community' has some kind of power in this scheme. Don't get me wrong, I have to admire Mr.A for dreaming this up. Hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayer's money to be obtained in grants. Maybe a million in loans, and 300 supporters paying off the loans for them, while not putting a personal penny at risk. A touch of genius here ! The only reason the community is involved is to gain access to grants and loans.

And the rest ? I wonder why virtually no one even knew that an Executive Board was part of the plan before tonight.

Were you at the same meeting as me ? Perhaps Mr. A could clarify this.

The Executive Board are NOT ELECTED THEY ARE SELF APPOINTED.

Well at least the existing Board have put their hands in their own pockets - This Executive Board are putting their hands in our pockets !

I understand there is no way for anyone to 'sack' the Executive Board. It is not elected by anyone !

Thanks for the compliment but I ain't Michelle ! I am not sure who actually 'holds' the debt. I doubt the executive Board members are putting up any security. The real security, which Mr. A's accountant eventually admitted at one point, is that if the lenders have to call it a day, is that they would have to put the 52% share holding up for sale.

Just back from the public meeting. Have finally got a very large important bit of the jigsaw. The power point presentation which was mailed to us is very misleading. A whole level has been strangely omitted from the top. Right at the very top should be something which, during the presentation from Mr. Atkinson, slipped out. There is to be an EXECUTIVE BOARD. I have not heard of this before in the hundreds of posts since I started this thread a long time ago. It seems this body will overseen all below it. The CIC board will have to agree its budget with this board. In turn the SMFC board will, in effect, report to it. The executive board with be (as best I can understand) made up of the founders of the CIC - Mr. Atkinson, a guy from the Kibble school and the rest of the people driving this scheme. The community (us) will be expected to fund the interest on the debt (In the region of £1,000,000) by paying in our £10 an month, but the real power will remain with the unelected Executive Board who as far as I can see ain't paying a penny. Is that why it's called a Community Interest Company - because the community pay the interest on the loans ? I think (hard to hear sometimes) the guy from the Kibble said this is because the as yet unnamed lenders of the £1,000,000 will only have 'confidence' in these Executive Board people (and not in us lesser mortals).

I'm with you on that. This is a good post from someone (not me) on the awfishal site Just to add to the ongoing debate. I have now read over the document and taken a few days to read both here and on the unofficial forum the reaction of the fans. I have to be honest and speak from the heart and perhaps more importantly engaging fully with my gut feeling. There is no doubt so far as I am concerned that a CIC can be a fantastic vehicle for a local club or community organisation. Having read up on them I can see that. The document was very skimpy, perhaps it had to be, i can understand that, particularly if real outside support from new business sources rather than those with a vested interest or from within the club isn't forthcoming. I can understand why those wishing to promote this idea would wish to prolong the process in order to find that support too. Having said that I am now concerned that this proposal will actually not only fail to address the challenges that lie ahead for our club but leave us trailing in the wake of much smaller clubs due to the system we would be operating. We would never be able to address a sudden emergency where investment in a player might secure survival in top flight football for instance. At the moment the directors fork out and hope to recoupe their cash later. Although fan from ideal at least this is a streamlined approach and not a committee one in the true sense. I also see us importing an untried system that can only lead to fracturing our club into different areas of interest. Ie Shareholders, some of whom have basically donated money when asked on more than one occasion, never expecting to get anything back. CIC members who may have potential privileges over company shareholders - and for a far smaller 'donation' and fans who may not wish to become a part of a club within a club. Then there is the almost certain limiting of the clubs potential and ability to react to any given circumstance together with the long term stability of an operating system that does not require the commitment, either financial or emotional of those who are operating it. Saints could find themselves being run by an ever changing ad hoc committee made up of representatives of charities, businesses, churches, and community activists. I operate my own business and have done so for the past 30 years and am also on the board of a charity. I have seen how relationships and a business-like approach can rapidly go downhill when people have no financial ties to a project and I do not wish to expose our already stable club to what may prove to be a bit of a straitjacket. Given that there is no turning back the risks are, when compared to the benefits just too great. Nobody climbs a mountain without a rope! Sorry (or perhaps not) but I am against.

I think the idea is pretty daft - but if you read your own post again that's exactly what you (and others) were suggesting.

Yes I have done the maths and that's what worries me. The curry night you refer to was run by the EXISTING staff and using the EXISTING facilities.To make your idea add up, If am understanding it, the CIC would have to run a similar function at the same time as the Club ones. I would have to wonder what effect the CIC's version of corporate hospitality would do to the numbers at the £100 a head version run by the Club. 130 X £34 a head is the NET income. The staff have to be paid, the room heated and lighted, the food and drink paid for (En Croute are good but they don't work for nothing), the capital cost of the facilities taken into account etc. etc. If this was a potential goldmine how come no one else has done it and why are so many local venues shutting down ? This actually raises a very interesting point. The CIC 'events' could have an effect of the income for the Club. I also seem to remember that some posters a few pages back wanted cut price season tickets and match programs for CIC members. This would also reduce the Club's income. If it were not very very careful the CIC could potentially end up reducing the income of the Club. What would be next - cut price sponsorship, trackside advertising etc etc. In any case the potential profit / loss on the new bar facilities is only a drop in a very large ocean when looking at the potential repayments of hundreds of thousands of pounds of debt and the potential repayment of grants if this all falls flat on its face in say a years time.

I must be brighter that you - since you seem unable to answer the question I have just asked !

I think finding a name will be the least of your worries. I wish someone would explain to me how this bar is going to contribute hard cash profits to the CIC and/or the Club. As I understand it, it will be open before and after home games. That would be about 25- to 30 'events' a year. Plus maybe the odd funeral ! It's a long time (about 15 years) since I worked in the hospitality industry but I can't see how this can make any real profit. Given that its fit out costs (a five figure sum, I suspect) will have to be paid back over a period of time and its trading / opening times will be so limited. If I have understood the terms of the CIC, It will limit the number of potential customers to those paying in their £10 a month and maybe their guests. Even trying to provide draft beers on this very time limited basis will be very hard to make add up. Staff costs and other overheads will add to the problems. The existing bar in the corporate area is not a good comparison since of course the cost is folded into the £100 ish that we pay for the corporate package. Take a walk round the Town Centre (or any other Town centre) and see the number of boarded up pubs and restaurants who have failed to make money from a FULL time business with unlimited potential clients. This seems like just another part of the financial fantasy which is the CIC.

So seriously that you can't answer simple questions or justify statements about 'plenty of income'.

I know its hard for you but try to take this seriously.

Any idea WHY we are not being told this breakdown ?

Do you have any proof that we will be making plenty ? Do you have any expertise in this kind of business ? Please share it with us.

Yes that's a very good point. There does not seem to be very much (almost anything at all) in the document that we did not know already, but many of the very basic questions remain unanswered. What is the real mix of grant and loan, and is the grant dependent on the three classes of members signing up - and to what level. The key paragraph for me is ""The funding to repay any debt will come from two main areas. Firstly, the enhanced trading of the assets of St Mirren FC - an area all recognise as under-utilised, especially since the stadium move. Trading can be increased by using new social enterprise businesses operated between 10000hours and a number of the community partners."" I find it hard to believe that a bar trading for couple of hours every second week, the odd funeral wedding etc, and the other community users can generate the hard cash needed to pay off the loans (both capital and interest). These key figures are not in the document - are they in the detailed business plan ? I seen Accord hospice are quoted as a community member. Putting aside the obvious question why should a charity be paying into a scheme like this, you would have to question how their involvement raises money for the CIC. This in turn raises the question should the CIC not be giving a charity like this as much of its 'services' for free ? I hate to agree with the Daily Mail but should taxpayer cash be used to buy the shares in a private limited company ? Best of luck to SG and co. but should they really be filling their pockets with cash which could go to the NHS ? If it were all so easy should the Club not have made more use of its own assets ? I can see why Kibble might be keen - they seem to be guaranteed the construction work. Hmmm - at what cost ? In terms of the £10 a month. On top of my season ticket what do get ? The offer of a bar in the ground - presumably not cut price beer ! The chance to go to some meetings and do what ? Help to elect someone to the Board. My money used to pay off a loan. Does Mr. A or some of the other new faces draw a salary from the CIC ? Still more questions than answers, perhaps all will be revealed at the public meetings.

Perhaps we need to stick to one thread but as I said on the other one :- Yes I know the CIC does not even 'exist' yet, but Stathclyde Police, Reid Kerr seem to be quoted on the web site and I assume have been asked to take part in the CIC. So why not the Council who I suspect put lots of money into the Club's community activities. It forces me to ask the question - Why have the Council not been invited to get involved ? Or have they ? It is very hard to make out the logos on the 10,000 web site but I also don't seem to see Braehead - the Club's major sponsor. Why might that be ?

And you know this because ?

I think I can see Reid Kerr and Strathclyde Police logos on the 10,000 hours web site.