animal

We are on the verge of an astonishing legacy of debt. We are about to embark on a journey that could end in disaster or if we are really lucky a dead end. Playing on a different level - possibly the Second Division. Yes we could be big news how about"St Mirren Sunk" as a headline. Not many organisations wanting associated with that ! What are you on - is it legal - is it expensive - does it have any other serious side effects ?

No, I wish I was ££££££ !

I have signed up and think the whole idea is bordering on madness - so please don't think that all 600 are in favor. We just want to find out how mad it is !

The main bit I have a problem with is the "soft loan". Who will provide the approximately £2,000,000 soft loan, and why would anyone do this ? What happens when the income from the CIC fails to pay the interest let alone the capital on the loan ? Will gate money and TV money have to come from the club side of this scheme to fill the gap ? Any one who thinks a bar at Greenhill Road open for two or three hours every second week for part of the year will be a financial goldmine is living in a dream world.

Yes, Sid I think you have finally summed up the problem - good night - see you all tomorrow.

Please please tell me Sid where do you get the £2,000,000 in unsecured loans ??

Still no answer to the BIG question as someone else said :- ""Individuals contributions = 300 x £120 pa = £36,000 pa Corporate contributions = 12 (?) x £10,000 pa = £120,000 pa Total = £156,000 pa going into the CIC right? So that's money going into the CIC, not the club - the CIC which has no other major contributions from the people leading it. This money is funding the purchase of the club and nothing else? So the CIC has a huge shortfall to the tune of £1,844,000 which has to be made up of either grants or loans (debt for the CIC (but the asset being the stadium is protected)). At the numbers stated above it'd take over 13 years to re-pay that money through the contributions into the CIC."" And where is the income stream to finance this ????

OK so who has pledged £10,000 a year ?

Are these the 'companies' who have pledged £10,000 ? Why would a hospice pay out £10,000 a year ? Have PACE got £10,000 to pay out ? Why are the companies in involved ""very fluid and fast-moving at the minute"" ? Either they have signed up or they have not. Suspect they might not be very pleased if their logo is being used with out their agreement.

I think Barcelona were quoted in this piece. They are 100% CIC you could argue. Not sure if this is a good comparison ! Still no mention of where the £2,000,000 is coming from. Did Chick not think to ask that ?

Any chance of the web site authors making the logos of the supporting organisations bigger so that we can read them.

This post from the official site is worth a read:- For what its worth here's my worries over this. Say a library was a CIC. They get locals to contribute £1 a week or similar. They use the money to keep the library and employ a librarian. At the end of the year they have £XX left. They re-invest the money in more books. All well and good. Everyone benefits and so on. That is how it is supposed to work. Now to us. If we have a CIC that votes as a bloc vote with 52% then thats the end of any kind of democracy within the football club. Even at present that 52% can splinter due to a difference of opinion then change the dynamic of any decision and vote with the remainder of the shareholders, many of whom have put in cash two or three times over the years knowing fine well they will never see it back. With this it will always be the CIC that makes any decision with no prospect of change. unhealthy. If the CIC takes over a club with NO DEBT by taking on a mix of loans etc then effectively we will have gone from a debt free position to being 'owned' by an organisation with huge debt. That debt will have to be cleared. The only sizeable asset available would be the income stream from the club. We sell a player the profit goes to clear the debt... 52% control would ensure that. Where with all this debt would cash, real cash come from to INVEST in the club? It seems that we would have driven our football club up a cul de sac with no chance of reversal. That is a poor situation to find ourselves in after all the problems of the last few years. I read a couple of papers today, none of the articles mentioned football, the club and its playing future... or ambition to climb higher. I was also disappointed to see us described as a boutique football club! We are certainly not 'wee'... I've never heard a fan describe our club as that. I have heard it said that this system would work no matter what level we play at. So, the prospect of no cash... possible future relegation... how would we get back when we have owners?... It is a worry. As in life you should always have alternatives. There seem to be none here. Not trying to be negative just looking at the overall situation and to be honest, yes, seeing flaws that could well come back to haunt us in the not too distant future. I have looked into the CIC thing and it does have its merits, my fear though is that it was never designed for a professional football club on our scale, that in itself should guarantee problems ahead. Just thought I would contribute.

I suspect I am on the right track when all you can offer in return is personal abuse.

Are you seriously telling me that someone is going to lend Mr. Atkinson a seven figure sum without security of some sort. Please let me know where I can get a deal like that. Sounds a bit too good to be true. Are you honestly saying that if your CIC goes 'tits up' you are sure that it will not effect St Mirren ?

And the debt will be secured on ???

""what will happen to the 48% shareholders if the CIC plan doesn't go ahead."" - life will go much as it has done for over 100 years. No one is saying the present position is perfect or that a sole owner of the 52% would be guaranteed to be 100% bad or good. What concerns me is the CIC model is being presented as a life saver, but with little or no evidence to back up this claim, and a very curious lack of information on its progress or financial background. Time will unfortunately tell which one of us is right.

I am not keen for this to fail I just don't see how it will work and nothing you have said so far has convinced me otherwise. If the CIC scheme fails to get off the ground St. Mirren will go on as it has done for over 100 years. But the CIC has the potential to destroy our club by the introduction of large amounts of possibly unserviceable debt. I have been a supporter and a season ticket holder for over 40 years, and a shareholder for over 20 years.

I did not use an assumption of £10 a month. I simply used the possible £150 figure a year to illustrate the point. If I did use your £10 a month figure that would reduce the income to the CIC even more. By £15,000 I think. At least the 'unknown entity' might possibly buy the shares with his (her) own money and not a mixture of public money, fan's money, local company's money and massive amounts of debt.

You asked ""Is there a basis for your outrage or is it just your standard state of mind when in a position of voluntary ignorance."" I am just outraged that someone should come up with a scheme which will possibly destroy our club.

Do you really think for £150 ish a year you will get 'a real say in the decision making process of the club' ? Dream on.

How soon ???

Well OK you give me a better guess. Preferably one that does not involve the Club or the CIC or both in deep debt.

No Jd and Carbrinri had not escaped my attention. But the last time I looked they were not small COMMUNITY businesses. This decision will cost jobs in the local COMMUNITY. So much for COMMUNITY interests Mr. A. Will Jd be selling the full range of St Mirren merchandise that Provan's did ? I think not.

Having to do a lot of guesswork here but say 500 fans at say £150 per a year plus 20 businesses at say £10,000 EXTRA a year is about £275,000. Even this is very optimistic. I say EXTRA as the 20 businesses are probably already putting their hand in their pockets (corporate hospitality track side ads etc.) and 500 fans at £150 a year is asking quite a lot. Say £300,000 in one off grant from the Scottish Investment Fund. Looks like a lot of debt to make it up to £2,000,000. The whole scheme is very dependent on the fans and businesses to keep paying for a long time to come. Am I wrong ?

Forgive me if I don't fancy the comparison of St. Mirren and Ebbsfleet. I have looked at their web site and I can't even work out which (minor) league they are in. Anyone who thinks there is a lot of money to be made by running a bar for a few hours, every second week (apart from the summer) at Greenhill Road is living in a financial dream world. Where will you 'find money for the playing budget' ??? When all this fantasy falls apart and the lenders come looking for their money it will be goodbye St.Mirren.