beyond our ken
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Posts posted by beyond our ken
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this will explain why there is no word yet on the investigation ino doublke contracts, they are hoping at theSFA and SPL that a newco will be frmed that they can duly distance from the double payments and other irregularities.
Otherwise, it seems very likely that they need to expel RFC from both the SPL and SFA
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could the answer be that SMISA has now matured and and has developed it's own identity and it could possibly be vehicle for fan ownership? If SMISA can generate a wad of 50k with so few members then is it possible for the 10000 hours DD subscribers to sign up for a similar amount to SMISA, who then strike a deal to buy over the consortium (and anybody else's, if they want to) shareholding in installments?
Just a thought, but the gradual acquisition of shares seems a better method as any failure to keep delivering for the club would see a pause in contributions coming in. Somner raises, and exagerates, some good points about some of the community groups. i'd like to see them come in, influnence, contribute to and share in the development of the club, but not be able to control it or use it as a cash generator for their own ends. Perhaps the uncertainty can be overcome by a model that provides some protection against some of his fears.
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If the SPL chairmen had backbone they would challenge Goram and thesun in court for this. Printing this "article" undermines confidence in 10 businesses that are currently trading viably (though admittedly not without problems)
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Doncaster has laid the groundwork for resumption of normal bigoted service, with no concessions to the other clubs.
Even when they announced the penalties on rangers, he hinted that they could be swept away on appeal.
The deal has already been done, all that is happening now is to allow some face-saving posturing before scottish footbal shamefully capitulates to rangers
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I was over at my old dads yesterday, he was reading this thread and said to me that some people know the price of everything but the value of nothing.
Wise words big mac !
A relative of mine read this thread and declared that we are all saints fans and should be united, however there are obviously some obviously right smug bastards going around
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So I'm a market trader, a mason and a window cleaner?
Wow. I'm quite busy.
At least I'll have enough hours not to have to worry about the tax credits restrictions.
Youre clearly doing your best and are a credit to the private sector
What are tax credits?
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I'm sure I recognise this poster. Aren't you the guy who spat the dummy recently?
And im not sid either
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I'm sure I recognise this poster. Aren't you the guy who spat the dummy recently?
No
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Wow, you have really came across like a prat!
Was the £500k budget you claim to manage the money that Ken was going to raise via Ticketus?
People do business with people. That's the moto the organisation I work for works to and as one of the biggest brands in Scotland and one that has seen rapid growth over the last 10 years I would tend to go with that. Not with your competitive tender guff.
Another nob that thinks I am either ken or one of his agents.
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In fairness you should re-read my post. I edited it to make it even more insulting.
People who use phrases like "Corporate Governance" should be banned from any position of responsibility and made to eat pilchard and raspberry sandwiches. You talk like an MBA. Are there any MBA's out there who have actually made money from using their own money as opposed to someone else's that I could talk to here?
BTW freemason? I'm not a freemason.
I've re-read your post and I still cant find the insults, except for the insult to my intelligence.
Keep up the editing, with the amount of practice you are getting you'll soon be pretty good at it
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More fool you then. A £500K budget would get you a lot of friends, and its friends that provide value. Competitive tendering doesn't work and framework agreements offer even less value. All you do is push up the cost of the sale as all the bidders bung that on to their price as well as your own internal costs fannying around making your selection. You need to make friends with suppliers you like - once they are friends and know that there is a relationship there it will allow them to be keener with their pricing.
When it all goes pete tong for you, you will be looking to get help form people that you have not treated as your friend. People that will know that you will happilly end the relationship to save a couple of quid. That's not the best way to manage your business relationships. Trusted partners and long term relationships is what works. I've sold to many people over the years and the ones that last longest in their roles are the ones that build tight, trusting relationships with their suppliers.
Tendering may make you feel important, it may make you feel as if you hold all the aces...in reality it makes you a fool wasting everyones money - mainly from the budget you are responsible for. I'd sack you for it.
An idle threat from someone who couldnt get a job getting the trolleys back in from Morrisons car park.
Clearly I've hit a nerve and the del boys who have failed to pass the credit scoring and competency checks are ganging up on me. Get over it guys, the banks will start lending soon and you can all by new pringles and head off to the golf club to congratulate each other on your immense business acumen (with you backs to the bar, of course, so the regulars cant see the holes in the arse of your trousers).
Never mind delboy, I'll console myself by opening a bottle from the case of the fine Rioja that one of your fellow traders insisted on sending me last christmas. it still didnt get him the contract though. That went to the guy who sent me the Glenlivet and thone big wheel of stilton.
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In fairness you should re-read my post. I edited it to make it even more insulting.
People who use phrases like "Corporate Governance" should be banned from any position of responsibility and made to eat pilchard and raspberry sandwiches. You talk like an MBA. Are there any MBA's out there who have actually made money from using their own money as opposed to someone else's that I could talk to here?
BTW freemason? I'm not a freemason.
I missed the insults, must have been too subtle for my well-educated brain. Then again I'm not well versed in the parlance of the market trader so maybe I should log on and do a couple more courses. You obviously are a mason and now you're a liar too. Good work for this time in the evening (dont think it wont be reflected in your appraisal)
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It's clearly not your own money.
Most proper businessmen (i.e. those who make their own money) know that people prefer to do business with people.
Networking is everything.
I would NEVER give business to someone I didn't know.
I would be especially worried about giving someone else's £500k away to people I didn't know.
Sadly the world is full of MBA's prepared to spend other people's money by following other people's business models.
What a snooty little reply (and a desperately ignorant an ill-informed one to boot), your reputation on this forum is well deserved.
Luckily the world is full of multi-billion pound businesses, staffed by highly qualified and trustworthy people who know a thing or two about corporate governance, whose crumbs float down to feed the host of buttock-clenching freemasons who spend far too much of their time acting like a big shot on football forums.
Fuxxake, you could be a window cleaner for all I know
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looks more like it is focussed on community enterprises, charities and other groups with some room for businesses.
Effectively turning the lounge into a privileged club
Do people really give each other business because they are members of the same club (masons excepted) these days?
i manage a £500k budget, and couldnt give any one of you a whiff of a job without competitive tendering and you signing up to our T&Cs
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So are you seriously saying that if 10000Hours bid goes through and some subscribers pledges withdraw support from the CIC/ Co-op then St Mirren, with zero bank debt, up to date on tax payments etc will suffer the same fate as r*ngers: under investigation for around 20 years of double contracts, illegal use of EBT scheme and tax debts of up to £93m and other non-tax debts of around £40m and rising... and in administration now and facing possible liquidation?
Scaremongering perhaps?
Is it not a whole lot more likely that if pledgers catch a cold, as you put it, then the leners will either 1) renegotiate the length of the loans or 2) sell the 52% majority shareholding that 10000Hours would own, and assuming they have made decent headway into repayments after a year or two you are looking at the lenders slapping a lower asking price on the 52% shareholding than the consortium did?
Please explain how you would see 10000Hours defaulting on payments to lenders equaling St Mirren FC entering administration or even facing liquidation.
Should the subscriptions and additional revenue fail to reach the required levels then the co-op will be vulnerable, leaving the majority shareholding in the club available to anyone who wants to take it over, maybe r*ngers, maybe Ken, maybe a local ned
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With the deal to buy the club now agreed in principal with the selling consortium, it is up to the St.Mirren supporters to back the bid in sufficient numbers to give sufficient confidence in the business model to allow 10000Hours to go ahead and finalise the deal.
In short, 10000Hours is borrowing all of the money involved to do the deal and, like any loan, it's backers need to know they will get their dosh back.
Here is a rough model of how the numbers stack up as far as I am aware. I think this makes the whole thing clearer but maybe not.
I am using a few guesses and assumptions below, as I genuinely don't know exact figures relating to the agreed sale price or the amount being borrowed and at what level of interest.
Sale Price
The much touted sale price of the club was £2m. Whilst I do not know the exact figure that has been agreed in principle between the selling consortium and 10000Hours it is fair to assume I think that it will be a bit less than that. Let's for arguments sake say it is £1.75m. Might be more might be less.
Social Investment Funding
10000Hours has support for loans in place of somewhere around £1m. That money will come from social funders, plus contributions from the likes of SMiSA (if their members are still backing this - not sure if that is the case but sure one of those guys can give an insight).
The Funding Gap
So that leaves us with a difference of £1.75m less £1m = £750k. That money is due to the selling consortium as part of the deal. This money was originally coming from another lender, but they backed out of the deal at the last minute last year which caused the original deal to collapse.
I believe the selling consortium may have agreed that this "gap" can be paid back to them over a period say of 2 years. Similarly I believe the social investment funders are supportive that repayments on their loans do not need to start for a matching period of 2 years.
So, 10000Hours has 2 years in which to repay the funding gap, before it then starts to tackle the repayments of social investment loans.
Hope that makes sense and you are following !
The First Two Years - Where does the money come from ?
Let's say 1500 individual members each pay £10 per month and join 10000Hours. This equates to £15k per month, £180k per annum
Over two years that is £360k of income to 10000Hours.
The "87 Club" will offer individuals and local businesses lifetime membership of 10000Hours and a range of additional benefits that will be announced soon. These members will still only have one vote though. Their contribution will be £3k each one off.
If the 87 club allocation is fully taken up that equates to additional income of 87 x £3k = £261k
10000Hours proposes to rent the vacant void in the main stand and fit out as a supporters bar and function area. Lets suppose they can make £50k per annum profit from that. I am not sure what the deal is with the fit out costs are for that void but that is important obviously !
So over 2 years 10000Hours has;
Individual memberships = £360k
87 Club = £261k
Supporters Function/Bar = £100k
Total = £721k
So just short of meeting the funding gap (assuming it is interest free and assuming the figure I guessed is right !) but not a million miles away.
What happens after 2 years ?
Assuming the funding gap has been paid off now 10000Hours starts to tackle the repayments to the lenders. These lending agreements are over quite long periods, say 5-7 years or so. Remember at this point that steady income is coming in to 10000Hours at a rate of £180k per year from individual members and £50k a year from the void.
So they have £230k coming in. This obviously assumes no drop off and no increase in memberships.
The hope of course by this time is that 10000Hours is also able to raise further revenue by using the energy and ideas of it's members to generate funds, whilst at the same time the organisation will be looking to meet the conditions of those loans (and potentially reducing the amount payable) by delivering tangible social benefits to the local community.
I do not know what interest rates those loans are repayable at but it is fair to say that £1m of loans repayable over 5-7 years can be serviced against income of £230k per annum, especially if there is even more than that coming in.
What happens after all the money is paid off ?
Lets assume it takes 7 years from completion of the deal in 2012 to pay off every penny of lending.
In 2019 10000Hours has no borrowing, but still has, if members don't increase or decrease and all other situations stay exactly the same, income of £230k per annum. The members of 10000Hours would decide what happens to that funding but strikes me that it might be invested into the football club ?
Why the numbers are important.
You can see for yourself in the mock examples above that the individual and 87 club membership numbers are absolutely vital to the whole business model.
Without the right number of pledgers the business model simply does not work. With more members the funds are repaid off quicker and the organisation can begin to start supporting the football club business sooner.
It is important to realise that through all of the above the intention has to be that the revenues of the football club itself are not harmed in any way. The investment into 10000Hours needs to be "new" investment that does not harm income to St.Mirren FC. The rental of the void for example should provide the inverse, where the club starts to make revenue from currently vacant property.
Interested to know the thoughts on the above !
My Thoughts?
All of your figures are estimates, therefore this post is as speculative as any other on this subject, on this forum
Next thought, if the TTH figures need to be explained, should it not be themselves who provide a definitive account?
Poor R*ngers Theads Merged.....
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