Gruffalo

Does anyone know what affiliation the company Douglas Street Limited have to St Mirren The company is listed with companies house as formed in April 2010 with the following as named Directors in December 2010 Laurie Marie Montgomery Scott McLennan Bryan McAusland Allan Marshall George Campbell Stewart Gilmour Richard Atkinson Christopher Stewart

Also added to the fact that a personal license only costs £50 to register. If we can't afford that level of investment in the club then we areally being run as a 2 bob outfit.

Sid you are the very reason that I have not signed up to the CiC. The problem I have with the CiC is not the use of the club, the community etc it’s the fear bit that the lunatics could take over the asylum. I have a fear that I pay my hard earned cash to the CiC and discover that some numpty has been elected to either of the boards. All I want to do is turn up and support the team on the pitch. I am not interested in the side show and the baiting that you have undertaken from the start on this. I want to support the CiC for the community aspect not to give someone a position of power over other fans. If I discovered Sid had been elected (pigs might fly I know) I would seriously reconsider the merits of my contribution. These threads put people off the CiC.

That’s utter rubbish and if true proof that the club for years has failed to be run as a business. What you are saying is if I turned up to the club and said I want to book the Corporate suite on a Wed night for 250 people with a 5 course meal and a pay bar. The club would say sorry we don’t have the money to pay for staff to manage the bar. We need to get a guardian angel to build us another bar. The problem is that the club has a complete lack of foresight, imagination and motivation to do anything other than the same old tried, tested and tired stuff that it already does. My opinion has not changed since the start I am neither in the pro or anti CiC camp. The principals of the CiC I understand and I support. In my opinion the CiC/REA has seen an opportunity to make use of a Name/Brand/Club and its facilities for a controlling interest of £2m for the CiC the club is the side show. For £2m they could not purchase or build the facilities that they will have a controlling interest of. If people want to look for the hidden agenda then this is it. Once the CiC takes control I suspect that the club will be utilised significantly more than they are at the moment, but very little of that revenue will find its way to the club. Which brings me back to my original point that in business you need to speculate to accumulate. The club never speculate on anything to generate new revenue streams, they stick to the same old same old. This is why the purge of ideas being put forward by the CiC are being seen by others as ground breaking. It hardly takes a genius to realise that we have a function hall that gets used once a fortnight for 8 months a year. That we need to embrace the community in the club.

Stu the problem for me is that Yul may have some valid posts but they are all dressed up in the ridiculous presentation . It is obvious that a lot of thought has been put in to the presentation but because of they manner they are presented you cannot take them serious. You are also right that there are pro-CiC who don’t take questions or criticism of the current process too well. These are the people who were taken under the wing early doors to sell the CiC to the rest of the punters. (not a bad thing and actually a very good marketing strategy) But on the other hand there are anti-CiC posters such as Animal/Yul who have an Agenda. Rather than come on with valid questions or concerns they turn every aspect of the CiC process in to a perceived problem. Take for example the laundry thing its being mocked as getting your smalls washed, If the CiC announced that they had signed all the hotels and restaurants up on a term contract to clean their laundry at a anticipated profit of £XXX would it still be mocked. We have posters on this forum who are still too thick to understand that the CiC and the Club exist as two completely separate entities. For example the fact you can’t buy a scarf at the moment is an issue with the club not the CiC. The fact that the CiC is not completed is due to third party funding that has still to be approved. The timeline from my experience is a moving target. Certain milestones to even get to be considered for funding had to be met. (The fan/business/ community bit) So again to critical of individuals for that is harsh. My concerns with the CiC are as follows. I get that if I contribute to the CiC that my money goes towards the financial package to take control of the club and its facilities. But ultimately my money is going to a business that is looking to reinvest resources back in to the community. I also get that the Club stands to benefit from the potential of the community input. The principals of the CiC are fantastic and should be exactly what a club like St Mirren is all about. My concern is that REA will use the club and its facilities for his own charitable ends. (That he has more interest in the success of the CiC than the success of the club). In the short term the CiC relies on the Club and its fans. However if the CiC becomes successful then there is a potential that the need of the club and the fans becomes diminished. In my opinion REA has selected St Mirren for the CiC not because it is St Mirren but because of its facilities and their availability at £2m.

The bar debate is typical of the parochial thought process of some of our fans. Who cares who is running the bar, it is hardly going to be making millions. Also the individual commissioned to run it is unlikely to be on £50k a year. (the bar will struggle to make £20k profit a year.) Also whats wrong with a bit of nepotism, if that is what happens, After all the largest contract we have given to a player in the recent past just so happens to be related to a Director of the club. The business plan whilst not been formally published and issued to all the “so called business gurus” has very much been watered down to laymans terms and published to death on this webpage. If the CiC published projected turnover, P&L accounts them it would be lost on the masses and we would have further debate on “yea but they failed to publish this item or that item”. If you can’t grasp the business plan from whats published then you must be on a blind mission to the moon using Apollo 13. This forum is to debate the merits of the CiC. I still have my reservations but to be fair they tend to be on a personal level rather than a business level. I am fed up with the debate not being constructive and being high-jacked with people who have an agenda. I have waited from signing up to the CiC to see how the debate went. I have yet to see a valid negative reason why I should not sign up. What I have got from that there are the usual detractors who are happy to spread stories dressed up as facts. By contributing to the CiC you will assist in benefiting the Community and in turn will hopefully assist in raising the public profile of our club. In turn the success of the CiC could financially benefit the club. I am also fed up of listening/reading fans who believe that their £10 month is going to the club. But then that’s down to how its been sold by 1000hrs. Remember the Club will survive without the CiC. The CiC will not survive without the Club and its fans so why would they have a Business Plan that could jeopardise their future

The CiC aim will be to show that your £10/month has been used to improve the community and hopefully to the benefit of the club from any side perks that it can bring through use of the facilities, or raising the clubs profile.

DS 10 sorry to disagree with you on this. But the idea of the CiC was punted around the community organisations well before it was presented to the St Mirren fans. Quite rightly so as they will be the main beneficiaries of the CiC. Without their backing the CiC is completely flawed. SD is correct in that too many posters and people I have discussed this with are failing to grasp the concept of what the CiC will endeavour to be. Basically the fan will be donating £10/month in to a not for profit organisation. That money will be used to pay off the loan and fund future community investments/enterprises. The principals of the CiC are fantastic. Too many people are looking at the selfish aspects of the deal which is the bar and the thought that they will run the club. To reiterate my previous posts in that the CiC and the Club are two separate entities and two separate businesses.

Animal there appears to be an element of hypocrisy coming from your posts. Whilst I have my reservations with the CiC I can also see the benefits that it can bring to the club. At the moment the club is in limbo, it lacks directions and to use a phrase often used for managers. The current Directors have taken the club as far as they can or wish to go. These Directors have decided to cash in on their hardwork/luck/good fortune * (delete as appropriate) and pass the running of the club on to someone else. After turning down offers from the other Consortium of Alan Sugar/Richard Branson and Tom Hunter they decided it was best to sell to the CiC. (aka the only show in town) So what are the problems. The Club will remain the club and rather than being run by local Businessmen as a hobby it will be run by a Business which is also a CiC. The club for far too long has been run as a hobby and ego booster for the local businessman. If the club is now run as a proper business by cashing in on its assets, fans base and local connections then this is to all our benefits. If the CiC means that someone with mental health problems, learning difficulties or just a kid being able to go to club gets a better life out of the facilities as St Mirren then I am happy to pay my £10 month. I am not “Blind” and also wonder whats in it for the people involved. But maybe their gain is not financial, maybe its ego, maybe its awards who knows. You stated that RA is a multi-millionaire, so why would he be interested in getting 300 peoples £10/month. It’s also time to differentiate and get this across to the fans. The Club and the CiC are two completely different entities. The success on one does not guarantee the success of the other. The question that you should be asking yourself is why it took a non St Mirren/Local/Football person to point out the obvious that the club FAILED to utilise its facilities and FAILED to integrate itself with it local community. The majority of our town support the old firm. If we can change the mind-set of 1% of our local community we can add 1000 fans to our base. Is that an unrealistic target? This is a HUGE change in direction for the club. We should be cautious and sceptical however we should be using these emotions to ask the questions to ensure that it is a success. It’s easy to be the smart arse at the sides picking holes in everything. The hard bit is putting yourself on that pedestal knowing someone like you wants to knock you off.

Basic info free on Companies House. You would need to buy the rest http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/b25047b1ff8dbbd239df89550f56224b/wcprodorder?ft=1

That’s the bit I have an issue with. But how do you define what the club is worth. If the Consortium put in £2m is the figure fair. If the Consortium put in £1m over 10 years ago is the £2m fair If the Club had not got Planning and not got Tesco to buy the land not got the new stadium, not written off the debt. But did have its debts called in by the Bank. The club folded and the Consortium and the shareholders lost all their money would that have been fair. Maybe someone can advise how much the Consortium has ploughed in to the club in pure cash and exclusive of their time and effort in keeping the club afloat.

Look if Dodgy Dan the Demolition Man put a deal on the table to buy the shares for £5m and the consortium sold out. A year later he closed the club and turned the ground in to a donkey derby stand. We the fan could do nothing about this. The CiC is not being sold as the saviour of the Club. In some respect it is an experiment. Whats the worst that could happen. The CiC fails and goes in to administrations. The shares are then sold to an individual who the fans don’t know. Its no different to the club being sold to that person right now. (The CiC is the only show in town, there is no plan The CiC will only fail if the fans let it fail. No disrespect to the current Board. But I do not want another year like last year for our club. We lack direction, initiative and vision and are currently not progressing as a club. The CiC will certainly bring new blood and new ideas. I have a concern that the guys involved are not St Mirren or “football” guys. But looking at the state of Scottish Football as a whole which is run by “football” guys then that is maybe not real concern.

I am not joining now I wanted to be Vin Tanner – Steve McQueen

Like all options that are available to the club, the CiC does have some shortfalls and some potential pitfalls. But the facts are 1. The Consortium want to sell their shares in the club 2. To date they have not received what they believe is a fair and reasonable offer. 3. The CiC are offering them what they want. 4. The CiC will be a business in its own rights. 5. The CiC will own a majority shareholding in the club 6. The club is not the CiC. The CiC is not the club 7. Giving money to the CiC does not go to the Club 8. The CiC cannot give direct funds to the club. The success of the CiC is dependent initially on the fans of the club supporting it financially. But hopefully it will be set up in a manner to be run on a not for profit basis. Ie money it makes will be ploughed back in to the CiC Where the club benefit is that the CiC will be using their facilities and will pay for the use of those facilities. So in summary If we as fans embrace the CiC, then the CiC can be a success. If the CiC is a success then the Club will benefit from increased use of the facilities, link to larger untapped fan base, better links with the community. I like all fans are scared of this and todate I have not signed up. I have my concerns about the CiC the interface with the running of the club etc. However what are the alternatives. Wait for the man on the white horse to appear on the horizon with his big bag of gold with Rooney, Messi and Nani in his Posse. What that brings is another year or ten with the club being run in limbo with no direction. What would be good is for the fans to raise those concerns and for them to be answered. The problem I see with some of the posts is that they are bringing it all back to a personal level with individuals and not at a business level. The club is for sale and we can help an organisation purchase our club and in turn help others.

Wilbur another sensible post The CiC and the Club have to be two separate entities and such should be run as two completely businesses. If that means different people then so be it. The Club will be accountable to the CiC and the other 48% shareholders. It needs to be run as a football club with ambition and living within it means. It will not have a sugar daddy to bail it out. But it needs to be run by football people with a football mind. The CiC will be accountable to its members and the Regulator. It needs to be run as a community business at a profit in order to survive. It will have sugar daddies to bail it out, ie us the members. It needs to be run by people who have both business and charity experience.

That would be like buying someones car but having them in the passengers seat telling you how to drive it.

If they vote on the five consortium members then we have all been well and truly stitched up. £2m in the back pocket and business as usual your having a laugh. The club needs new blood with new ideas. I have stated on other threads that the very ideas that are being put forward by the CiC should have been implemented by the club to generate an income for the club not the CiC. The Board should have run the club as a business not as a once a fortnight venue. I suspect that some will expect to be on the board of the Club after they have taken their money.

Can’t agree more Wilbur. There are two issues here. The CiC appears to be a purchasing the shares in the club to be able to use the clubs facilities, the club brand and it contacts to fund it. The community, corporate and members fees will be used to fund the CiC. The CiC should be and has to be (if it is to succeed) set up as a business to run at a profit. A profit that will be used to grow the CiC. (I am not sure, from what I have read, if the CiC is allowed to pass that profit back to the club to fund a player) We need the correct personnel on the board of the CiC to run the CiC. These people have to have experience in running these types of initiatives. (that excludes the current Board member of the Club in my opinion) In essence the clubs future is in the hands of the CiC. The club will be run as it is at the moment on a tight budget. The control will simply change from the consortium to the CiC. The members on the Board of the club will have to be individuals who can move the club in the right direction. They will be separate from the CiC however could represent both parties.

Drew I kind of discovered the answer to my own question and yours a. Yes the CiC could in theory go into administration. See attached link re CiC. Plenty of stuff on The buzzwords that are being mentioned. The worry I have is that should the CiC collapse then the shares could be used by the administrator/liquidator to fund the creditors. http://www.cicregulator.gov.uk/guidanceindex.shtml b. Not sure. However the club and the CiC are separate companies and if the CiC failed then this should not have a direct effect on the club. Provided of course, that the club does not heavily rely on being financed by the CiC.

What happens to the shares if the CiC collapses after the shares have been purchased from the Consortium.

I would appreciate some clarification on the queries I have with the CiC 1. Do the loans and grants have to be paid back? If so by whom, what level of repayment and over what time period. 2. It is noted that the loans are soft loans. These soft loans are being used to purchase shares in the Club. If the funding covenant is breached what happens to the loans and thus the shares. 3. Do members of the CiC carry any liability should the CiC fail 4. Do the Directors of the CiC have the same responsibilities as Company Directors. 5. Please clarify which of the CiC members if any will receive a salary or payment for their role in the deal. 6. Are the Consortium members paying any fees/rewards/commissions for the sale of their shares. 7. On a similar vain is the CiC paying any fees/rewards/commissions for the purchase of the shares.

Not to be negative but it is a valid query. If the whole CiC goes wrong after its been implemented what are the repercussions to the club. 1. Do the loans and grants have to be paid back if so by who 2. What would happen to the 52% shares in the club if money did have to be paid back and wasn't 3. What liability is on the members of the CiC 4. Who carries the liability, is it the Directors of the CiC Its good business practice to know and or assess your risks and liabilities before going in to any deal. I only mention this as I aware of a number of organisations that took Lottery funding, and years down the line due to changes in business deals, property deals etc, they were forced to pay back the money. The Lottery used the excuse that the money was granted for a specific purpose and they had not fullfilled their side of the deal.

I have not seen a copy of the accounts. However I would guess that the huge figure that you refer to is the depreciation on the value of the fixture and fittings The last accounts had the stadium fixtures and fittings at a value for new. A year on it will show on the accounts as a depreciated asset on the balance sheet.

What a lot of rubbish this thread is. Are we going to go through this every time an organisation wants to pay the club to use the facilities Youth Club - "we hate all young people, they will trash the place and be selling that tacky macky stuff you know that funny plant they smoke Boys Brigade - "No we don't want them they believe in a God, aye its okay we will take the Hitler Youth" YMCA - "Don't want them and their silly dance" Paisley Elders - "Don't want them the place will smell if piss" Get a grip. We have an organisation wanting to pay to use the facilities, not want to have a human sacrifice in the centre circle at every game. No1 We are St Mirren Football Club No2 We have a facility that is basically used once a fortnight No3 We can rent out those facilities and make some money No4 This is all at the moment a rumour For a club that has a fan base that is basically mocked by the majority for following a minority we are a very intolerant bunch. Ohh the irony

Maybe the Church will be preaching Buddism