davidg

That's a bit of an odd slant as Davidg has always been on Yul's side of the fence.
Once again, I repeat the same simple fact - the current rumour mongering is no better than the original mince from animal. I haven't been taking much interest in the CIC of late and even I know more than what is being posted regarding the "bids".
The solution is the same as it has always been - speak to the club / speak to REA. The open door policy is the same as it always was.

watch out yul, you'll be getting asked to back up your story or face having it deleted, it's only CIC lovers who can speculate on here, they will advise you that your post may be defamatory and will be deleted "for your own good"

TSM my post talks of a Hypothetical situation with an unamed Sports Club!
You have given a very eloquent run down of practice, proceedure and accounts of a named football club around the time they were involved in a multi-million pound transaction. Just so we are clear! my example is hypothetical, that said.
No one that i know including me has any issue with the BoD or selling consortium of SMFC having had their loans etc! repaid, they put in money that kept the club afloat... end of:
The hypothetical example involving a holding company, where said company deals with the sports club will be and is recorded in the Sports club accounts. However all the activities of said holding company are not documented in the sports club accounts, if for example it retained the services of "Consultants" paid off short term loans for issues pertaining to the new build etc...
Bear in mind it's not difficult to get someone to be on the BoD of any company you wish to set up, if you'd rather not be a BoD member of said company yourself. anyway it's boring the cr*p out of me now, and most likely many others

Yes, I don't disagree.
However, to be fair, you need to take into account inflation since 1998/99, the interest paid on the money borrowed to buy the shares, the risk taken and, not least, all the personal time they gave to sell the ground to Tesco, all done for free.

I suspect that if you applied a decent hourly rate to all the time they gave to the project in addition to the cost of buying the shares (including interest payments and inflation) that the return they are looking for isn’t really that great.
As I said in my reply to Somner9, I’m not taking any sides here. Just trying to be objective and fair with regards to the selling consortium.

Erm, the holding company took over the debt the club owed to Barr Construction and were repaying at £15k per month. The club then used the savings to fund the two planning applications (Greenhill Rd. & Love St.) which were quoted as having cost £250K to ensure the ground move.

Here's a hypothetical situation to consider if you will:
A sports! club decide to sell their ground to a developer, with the ultimate objective of building a better ground from the proceeds of the sale.
The actual fee the developer pays is never publicly known as those monies are paid to a holding company formed with the sole purpose of brokering and handling the deal.
An amount of money is paid to the sports club by the holding company which is sufficent to enable the sports club to commision the build and service the outstanding debt and loans it has accrued.
this amount will appear in the accounts for the sports club and will stack up on the balance sheet showing perhaps a small surplus or deficit.
The original fee paid to the holding company however is not part of the sports club accounts and as such is not reported on in these accounts. The holding company as brokers take on the responsibility for meeting any "Disbursements" relating to the deal and make good on these with the parties concerned.
You may ask why would the sports club need a Holding company? Indeed you may ask

i would ignore davidg's comment if i were you mate, i reckon he's just itching to delete posts to show that he's a mod and he has power,in fact his post is inflammatory and he needs to be brought down a peg or two by those who mod him, he's actually insinuating you may have committed a crime

Fools gold for everyone.
Just $10 dollars Americano a month exchangeable for the blind trust and the waco like following of a Mirren Messiah, a Stranger who came out of the west.
He said, ‘’I employ 400’’. It was proven he didn’t. The villagers ignored this truth. ‘‘Yea’’ he said believe in me. And they did. Lawd above, he even admitted he was using them and they not only accepted it but were prepared to foot the bill for it!
They swallowed the stinging criticism of one of his posse, a cowpoke known as the Kibble Kid, a man not fit to lace the boots of the club ‘legend’ they persuaded to act as their frontman. The KK, a man who felt it appropriate to insult them and their club at the first public meeting held in their own new stadium (not his, he’s not a Saints fan either, shellik I think) and ask ‘‘it makes you wonder what they (the board) have been doing for the last ten years, followed by ‘‘why has it taken US to come in and sort all this out?’’ Hot damn and the followers swallowed this stuff content to bankroll a new outside outfit controlled by the Stranger where not a dime, peso or penny would go to the club.
The Stranger and his posse (a couple of honchos and a whole lot of freeloaders in the boardroom at home games) continued to tell the fans they would have a say in the club. The villagers gathered in the village square. Some of them so blind tried to take their fellow Saints fans with them. They posted. Follow him, follow the Stranger, he knows best. We are willing to be an experiment, we know we won’t own the club but this is best. If it fails we will just go back to the way we were. It’s enough to make a St Sad sad. So they followed blindly without any REAL question or scrutiny. They defended him, made excuses for having dirt - as opposed to paydirt - kicked in their faces. They attended meetings, when they were actually held. They gave their private banking details to unknown strangers. Later some even posted that they hoped their bank details had not been lost. Boy howdy did they trust.
Then the backers pulled the six shooters out when a whole selection of concerned FELLOW FANS voiced concerns. Their answer was to ridicule and demand alternatives, even though the alternative is and was the status quo (no not that status quo) until normal business practice is re-introduced. Nobody ever suggested that the board revert to individuals and do not act as a bloc of shares.
There was no darned need for an alternative to be suggested. The agenda was being set by the board and the Stranger was a central part of that process. As sundown followed sundown some fans even started to do the Stranger’s job for him, because he was doing a fair impression of hiding out with the hole in the wall gang. Where was he? Where is he? Boo hoo why won’t he talk to us? One or two even suggested the cic was a done deal. Tumbleweed rolled by.
Good results on the pitch helped divert attention. Transparent information was lacking. The fans can wait was the attitude. Meetings were called, meetings were cancelled ­– tomorrow ­- we only need three weeks. The wagons were circled.
Where are those darned direct debits. Have they been returned to the senders? Will the forms be returned? Who is storing them? Are they registered to legally collect this information? Have any fans called the club to find out? No. They’ve given their personal banking details to the stranger who is informing them in a transparent and businesslike way each and every day. Don’t worry. Don’t question.
Behind the scenes the Stranger has lost the support of all staff.
He has brought nothing of substance to our club.
He has proved beyond all doubt that marketing is not his forte.
Cancel Christmas. We have no shop to speak of.
No real Saints gear on sale.
Leave your strip for days just to letter, then phone, call, send a pigeon, telegraph to find out what’s happening.
JD staff still tell fans they don’t sell Saints strips.
The deal is worth much less than Provans.
His mini programme failed.
The laundry was a washout.
Soaking $1.50 from whippersnappers mobile phones has thankfully stopped.
Other scary stuff never made it to the fans.
The big backers on forums have gone to ground.
Other clubs are dumbfounded.
The club has not been held up and delivered into the hands of a bunch of amateurs funded by the fans and the taxpayers while they swan around the boardroom and pow wow about how the cic will pay its debts with smisa’s and fans’ dollars. WHERE DO SMISA STAND NOW? St Mirren fans who HAVE put cash into the club on more than one occasion meet soon. How about a statement before the club AGM SMISA pardners.
The Stranger has not succeeded in swiping taxpayers’ loot and putting in place a three board structure that could only lead to disagreement and argument.
There is no place for the Stranger in all of this. He is commercial director and has overseen a strip deal devoid of hard cash. A commercial operation he has put in shackles and darned well hog tied. Seen the club ridiculed in the press over laundry, church services, and a shambles of cic launch. All of this while posters who would have previously slaughtered Provans/ the commercial department /the club/the board for just an itty bitty fraction of this say hee haw or complain. There is no way back. Credibility is gone. Would you buy a cart from this man?
The Stranger rode into our town with a fistful of counterfeit dollars. His and the cic’s credibility have gone. Time he rode out again on a buroo which is where I might end up with a script like this (I blame the six). He does not own a company that employees 400 and I may just be one of them!
St Mirren is a football club. It and the fans come first. They do not deserve to be an experiment. The cic would ultimately destroy our club. For a taste of the future just look at the way ordinary decent fans have been treated by a stranger who has said he would inevitably be bossman. That’s the reality of the future management style of the cic. Why would any villager want to pay $10 a month for the privilege of being no more than window dressing?
It was always fools gold. The cic is dead, worse the Stranger knows it.
Mr. Brynner and his six side cics.

I can’t see how anyone can personally have benefitted from the deal so far.

Tesco agreed to build an SPL compliant stadium for St. Mirren plus pay a sum of money to the club, St. Mirren FC Ltd.

That sum of money hasn’t gone to any shareholders, its all been used to pay off debts (including loans made to the club by directors) and for work at the training complex.

Everything has been reported in the Report & Accounts which have been audited.

The only way the selling consortium can make any money from the Tesco deal, as far as I can see, is if they can sell their shares for a profit. And even then, as I mentioned in an earlier post, any profit would need to take into account the interest they will have paid on any borrowings they had to make to buy the shares in the first place plus all the hours of unpaid work they undertook whilst working on the deal.

Again, I am taking no sides here. I own some of the 48% of shares that will effectively become worthless should the CIC offer (or indeed other offer) go through. I actually therefore have a vested interest in the selling consortium failing to sell their shares to anyone. In effect they will make a profit at my expense. However, I recognise that they are the ones that put their own money at risk and did the work to make it happen. If they hadn’t done so then my shares would have been worthless anyway! Therefore I’m not too miffed if the selling consortium sell their shares. I’d imagine that someone like Gordon Scott wouldn’t be too happy though!

With regards the CIC concept itself I’m staying out of the debate as you just end up getting abuse thrown at you unless you support the CIC in its entirety. I’m quite happy for the likes of yourself to lead the questioning! You’re doing a valiant job of it!

Why is it difficult to accept that people make money out of business deals? It's not a secret, it's a fact. Why would you continue to insist or be in denial that the sale of a football ground for a fee between £12 to £18 million wouldn't enable the parties involved to draw down capital from the company/companies involved?
The selling consortium and wider BoD done good and saved SMFC, I can't think of anyone who would begrudge them what they are entitled to for what they have endured! But FFS let's stop pretending that people don't make money out of multi-million pound deals

I don't get your defamatory angle?
Who owned smfc at the time love street was sold to tesco? Answer the Bod and (incl) shareholders at the time, and given they sold for around £10m it is not defamtory to say that the sellers profited from the sale! (Nice return) What they did or didn't do with the proceeds is indeed another matter.
If you are suggesting the sale actually cost BoD members then to suggest they profited would be wrong but again not defamatory. Best also to bear in mind no one ever paid £10million for love street before tesco acquired it so the profit of the sale was indeed substantial
One of the subsequent posters used the phrase "Pocketed" which perhaps is an unfortunate add on but not part of my post

don't see how his posts are defamatory, people put up their own cash to help saints - they remortgaged their homes etc. to raise cash, the payments were loans which were repayable with interest, tesco bought the old ground, loans were repaid - we all know this was a risky investment for them but it did pay off for them and well done to them for taking a risk, how can it be defamatory to state known facts,

I would say these are potentially defamatory posts. I'll give you a chance to back up your comments before deleting them (for your own good btw).

Simples just ask them!
But don't get me wrong about the sale they invested in the club, ran it when times were rough so I don't begrudge them a return on that especially as we got a new ground and the debt wiped out. Do you serioisly think that no one profited from a £10m transaction??? c'mon
As regards that company what they didn't do was explain, all they said was it was necessary for the sale to go through, so how comes none of the people actually stumping up the cash for the CiC weren't invited to form the company?
10000 hours are a bunch of amateurs who thought they could buy 52% of SMFC with other people's money, and lo and behold they've found out they can't! What a surprise. If they were open and honset as you say why have they not informed all the people who pledged that they are out?

Does he live in London?

There's no doubt that the CiC could work. But the funders are having the same issue as a number of people. The asking price for a mere 52% shareholding is far too high.
I have heard it suggested, but admittedly not supported with fact,that the consortium could recoup their entire investment (remember much of it was inherited) for an asking price of around £1.2 million and that would still provide a reward for the effort they put in. I dont begrudge them that as long as their demands are realistic and they dont stifle the future prospects
I'm afraid the options are the lowering of the asking price, which could attract counter bids, or the status quo.
It seems the club could well prosper under the current arrangements if we continue with the current good financial management (if indeed the board are sticking to that) and the further development of youth prospects.

I've just read through the latest batch of complaints on the forum and thought I'd just remind you all about a few key things.
Threats of Violence
The forum is all about opinions, and we won't always agree. If another poster is annoying you then you can choose to ignore their posts using the "ignore members" option. This is available by clicking where it says "signed in as....." at the top of the forum. You will see an option of "Manage Ignored Users" there.
The same goes for guests of other clubs who come on and join in the forum. Although this is a Saints board it doesn't do much harm to have a few opposition fans drop in from time to time, and can help liven things up. By all means berate them and their team but there is no need to resort to making threats of violence.
Religious Bigotry
Religious bigotry also won't be tolerated, as per our rules and regulations which are clearly linked at the top of the forum. You don't need me to tell you there is a big focus on online religious bigotry and people even being carpeted in court and getting custodial sentences for posting certain remarks on the internet.
We are all collectively responsible for ensuring that the board stays clear of this sort of thing which has absolutely no place in Scottish society let alone football. Leave the religious stuff to the two ugly sisters up the road, we are all better than that and above it so keep it off the board please and if you do see the sort of stuff I am talking about please use the report button.
Moderation
The mod team has suffered a bit in recent months due to technical issues, changes in circumstances, lack of time. Tom, David and NSS all do an admirable job when they are online but it's fair to say I myself have not devoted as much time as I should have done to keeping the place ticking over. That will change now, I will undertake to review the complaints panel every day so if there is anything on the forum which you think is breaking the rules, please use the report button and I or one of the other mods will deal with it.
The future
There are hopefully the first green shoots of some exciting things beginning to happen on the park. Off the park we have a lot going on. At times like these the forum should be coming into it's own as the best place to discuss all things St.Mirren. This is without doubt the busiest online forum for Saints fans and it will continue to exist for a very long time to come yet but we all have to play our part in making it reflect well on the club. At times recently I am sure some of the stuff on here has been an embarassment to St.Mirren.
Please think about the above, get involved with the forum and remember that first and foremost we are ALL St.Mirren supporters.
Ta

"The DOB registered at Companies House"
I thought you couldn't call them DOB's any more ..... Haha

Nah, I just put on it that I am the finest Internet wind up merchant on the planet as you so often prove. Richie Rich already knew this though - hence the offer of a place on the CIC BoD at out first meeting. He told me to string Pozbaird and Tsumirren along until we got the direct debit forms back. Kerching!!!!

He could write a cheque for £2m right now and buy the club (so he's told us), but he won't.
Instead he just takes up to 9 guests to the Boardroom on match days, I hope he is invoiced for this?

Too late Fras, but a valiant try all the same - the announcement is being made today.

This place is turning into dickophile heaven
Interesting though that Dicko should brandish his "I employ 400 peope " credentials as a way of impressing the natives and then seeks to portray himself as just another director when there are signs that the popular belief is that he has day to day control of the company.
Is it true that Maxi has a charge over St Mirren Football Club just now? If so, what is the exact purpose?
Have some of the loans and grants materialised already? If so, has any of that money been spent? If it has been spent then where has it gone?
Are payments already due on any loans? If so, have they all been met?
Can he not lend some of his own money to the CIC? there surely must be a way to do that without getting hit by the tax charges he mentioned at the public meetings.
Will the pitch be used as grazing or a paddock by his horsey friends?
Why ask for direct debit details when there are so many issues over share ownership to be overcome?
Some people are suggesting that the ultimate motive is for someone to get everyone else to pay for their do-gooder visions of a CIC that also happens to control a football club-not a lot is being done to dispel that notion now and the dwindling group of hangers-on who try to defend the CIC by attacking all who question it are now looking more and more like a bunch of wannabes that dream of a seat on the board and of pee-heeing with the allegedly rich and powerful of the parish (sic).
And finally, ktf. Do you fancy coming round the Tile to discuss "rancid little hovels" with myself, buddiecat, scottd and quite a few others who have serious doubts over 10000 hours intentions and ability to deliver? Or are you just another internet blowhard?

Oh, the irony, but I suppose you missed that
By your reasoning, if we have doubts about this project then we can only air them if we have absolute proof or an alternative strategy? What happened to the right to question? Surely it is up to the proposer of such a radical and hitherto untried (at this level) strategy to persuade the rest of us that he has the ability to make the whole thing hang together for the benefit of the club.
It seems to me that you can come up with a grandiose vision to deliver your own pet project of social and religious ministry, persuade others to part with their hard-earned cash to finance it in the belief (not, I hasten to add, the knowledge) that it will benefit the club they love and then walk away without a financial scratch or any drain on your well-protected resources when it all falls apart. Tell me how that is fair or how it is liable to fill enough people with the confidence to support it?
Anyway, in all seriousness, are you gonnae make me shut the f**k up?

So you have no problem with people posting the inflamatory pish that Sonny is guilty of, but have a problem when I take offence and stand up for myself, friends and family members.
Or in otherwords
Pro CIC-say what you want and have at any detractors with everything you have-no holds are barred
CIC sceptics-watch yourselves, we cant have you rocking the boat and spoling our love-in.

You know this for a fact? I would think schools would have a job distributing tickets while all the staff are on holiday>