ADMITCHELL

they will worm their way in like they do everywhere and will try to take more control, all they want is control over people,the unfortunates they help have to agree to go to places like their church if they want a lighter sentence or time out of hospital. they are convinced they will be looked after when they are dead if they look after some poor souls, basically they are nutcases who think they are sensible

you could say you are a different animal........

Pretty well summarised Stuart. Following a pledge of another kind (to try and keep out of Sid's way), I didn't go into much detail. Some other posters subsequently asked questions about some of the areas of concern, and they were answered well by the TTH folks on the Q&A.
My only remaining grumble was about why/how the deal would be pushed through with "the backing of the fans"....yet the target represented about 10% of those who went to games these days. Hardly a working mandate, but I was satisfied by the talk and action of the TTH people that my final concerns were answered. (My thread on this issue was derided as "Pompous & self-important" by Sid....but thankfully the TTH people saw what I was trying to raise as an issue, and answered it well. 'nuff said)
My main hope now is that we get as close to 1000 as possible, not at discounted structure. This would be a great achievment, but also give the members a serious voice if things were going awry. The extra funds would come in handy as well.
This forum has done a good job in opening up a debate amongst Saints fans for what is a critical decision for the club, and with the exception of the fanatical CIC funa-mental-ists, and the Yul Bryner fruitcakes, the toing/froing of comments has been a healthy and informative debate. Introducing the Q&A section was excellent, especially for the FFFs who cannot attend meetings at SMP.

I took notes at both meetings for a mate who couldn't attend, thought I'd place them up here. They use the slide pack for reference and I've not counted the front page in the numbering. I hope this help for people who don't want to trawl through numerous threads.
(Quick edit made to remove a comment that relates to a discussion with my mate, makes no sense to a wider audience)
Very good discussion with Stewart Gilmour about the reconstruction vote, doesn't think it'll go through.
He said the club can't survive on a 16 team league, I asked whether indoor winter football has a price from TV and it didn't look like they'd really examined that too much...or that they intend to.
The 14 league is really being scuppered by Aberdeen, Hibs & Hearts...worried about the 6/8 split. Currently the 12th in the SPL gets 720K, 1st in SFL gets 54K. The intention for SPL Championship is for 500K down to 225K with any side relegated topped up to 700K.
r*ngers and c*ltic not against the 14 team league, but the 11-1 voting dictated by them will destroy things. "Removing the OF" would cause it's own issues.
CIC - He also stated the CIC is the best option they've seen. A number of other offers would have used the stadium with the banks, the Italian consortium is indeed the Massone one.
Slide 1:
CIC's have only been around since 2005, Limited company behaviour, Charity Aims & Objectives and can only apply for money the qualify for.
Slide 2:
The circling numbers are the 8 funding figures applied for.
The Club currently breaks even, any regular buyer would either have to pay hefty tax or put a loan against the club. 800K - 1.2 million will be in the form of loans, but it's not from banks and not from organisations who'd look to foreclose. Indeed, Social Returns could see the loans drop to grants proportionately. A Social Return would be proof the CIC have assisted 60 drug addicts for example or 60 jobless..that sort of thing. Part of the funding provision is dependant on the CIC providing X amount of hours of various social assistance ventures. Interest varies from 0 - 8% over 3 - 10 years.
As SMFC are not a PLC there's no need to offer for other shares or even offer the 48% anything, the constitution of the club has always been there for all to see.
Letters for all funding are in place, the security is the 52% shareholding. Worst Case Scenario, real armageddon plague and locusts stuff, is in 3 years the club is up for 800 - 900K. No social lender has ever liquidated a company.
No bank will touch Saints to give them even a 100K overdraft. That's the bit that I think a lot of people just don't get.
Social Return On Investment was also very well explained and sounds very interesting. As an example, Kibble will run the space for the Erskine event and that will see Kibble people given jobs (return 1), the CIC providing a location for this (return 2) and Erskine having somewhere to potentially bring in more funding etc (return 3). All SROI can help with drawing eliminating some loans, so although it's in a debt cycle it's also in a discount cycle.
Slide 4:
2500 Season Ticket Holders
900 Shareholders
300 individual members for a minimum of 1 year, paying 10 a month 12 corporate members for the mimimum of 1 year, paying 10K a year 24 community members for the minimum of 1 year, paying 500 a year
The 10000 Hours site says 21 Community and 9 Corporate, we've actually outdone that although the numbers won't be amended until the due dilligence is complete on each pledgee. For Individuals it's at around 525 just now, no real major international push or TV coverage.
There may be family packages, yet another thing to consider at the first members meeting.
Slide 6:
The roof on the current corporate area is around floor level of the proposed community floor in the newly developed second space...basically same size as corporate and across the landing. This area will also be the Members and guest social bar open pre and post match.
The new area will cost 100K to fit out, the building warrant has already gone in and Kibble have been very "take a punt" over it already. The club will have use for it's own functions, whilst the Members Bar takings will go to the CIC until such time as the costs are amortised. Likewise should the CIC use it for a function then they get the takings.
Slide 7:
As we go on revenue will be brought in without the usually associated overhead. For example, members will naturally use the space instead of Campbell or new staff chasing bookings. Kelburne, Accord, a church and Erskine spring as immediate users for their own and extra activities.
Slide 8:
Some people surprised there's an Executive Board. The 10000hours CIC is where the debt sits, the elected Members Board will still need sign-off on Budgets and significant contracts...no different to how professional adults usually operate. The elected members board can also make up the club board, but not fill, and the 48% will be represented on the club board.
Slide 9:
Wage budget of 1.3 million
52 Events a year would add 7.5%
500 more people per game would add 8% 4000 additional purchases and transactions brings 4.5%
So, they feel 20% could be added to the playing budget...equivalent to about 5 good players or 5 better players.
Extra Notes:
The bar would cost a 6 figure sum, the CIC will trade it until that's amortised. All debts should be paid by 10 years, but again the club is NOT in debt. Additionality effect, you add a company on board they see the facilities and use them. Any problems with debt the CIC renegotiates, won't affect the club ("Eh, I still don't get it blah blah") 1st division drop is in business plan, naturally enough and good. No increase in fees, overhead would have to be shaved. It's hoped the 20% would be reality after year 1.
None of the Community or Corporate pledgees have stated that paying these fees will remove cash that would otherwise have gone to the club. So, in other words, it doesn't look like ad boards or hospitality will suffer.
The funding is staggered, in May we could see a Consortium sign in to go to some sort of shadowing deal whereby the CIC takes over. It has a do by date of August, at which time the board will go and get more than the 2 mill...probably less than they could have...by going back to the other interested parties. At that points Saints fans won't be able to complain or blame anyone except themselves.
There will be a shareholders meeting, then the next public meeting is intended to be a members meeting with early voting.

Q (10000 hours only please)
why are you waiting till after your proposed deal is set before engaging with Season Ticket Holders, Match by Match ticket purchasers (i.e. people that Actually put money into the club) etc? i find that an astonishing dismissal of the majority of the support of SMFC.
if as you say your proposal only works if the community gets behind it! why have you left the "Real St Mirren Community" out of the loop??? shouldn't a community based project actually start with "The Community"?
wouldn't a community based project be what the community wants, i.e. they decide how its set up, how its financed, what the democratic structure is, what type of businesses they want to do business with, what community groups they want to involve and be part of it, what board structure should be in place, one member, one vote! no multi-layered board system
i appreciate on this website you have reached st mirren fans, but the numbers compared to 2000 STH and the others that put money into the club is small.
why haven't you engaged with the community? i don't accept it would costs thousands to write to each STH, Shareholder, or give a leaflet out at the first home game of the season last year. it is apparent you want this on your terms, thats ok, but please when you say community please be honest who you really mean.

Look if Dodgy Dan the Demolition Man put a deal on the table to buy the shares for £5m and the consortium sold out. A year later he closed the club and turned the ground in to a donkey derby stand. We the fan could do nothing about this.
The CiC is not being sold as the saviour of the Club. In some respect it is an experiment.
Whats the worst that could happen. The CiC fails and goes in to administrations. The shares are then sold to an individual who the fans don’t know. Its no different to the club being sold to that person right now. (The CiC is the only show in town, there is no plan
The CiC will only fail if the fans let it fail.
No disrespect to the current Board. But I do not want another year like last year for our club. We lack direction, initiative and vision and are currently not progressing as a club. The CiC will certainly bring new blood and new ideas.
I have a concern that the guys involved are not St Mirren or “football” guys. But looking at the state of Scottish Football as a whole which is run by “football” guys then that is maybe not real concern.

I am a shareholder (a very modest shareholding) and am not miffed in any way whatsoever by the CIC or it's proposals, in fact I have pledged membership as an individual. My shareholding never gave me a true say in the running of the club with decisions always been taken at board level and in that respect I don't see that things have changed from that point of view. I am still happy to have my shares and carry on as normal, I didn't purchase them to have a say in running the club and I'm sure that's true of many of the 900.

You're taking a lot of interest in this for someone who has stated many times that he has no interest in St.Mirren.
We know your game.Now f**k off and take your shit stirring elsewhere fatty.
Leave us, as St.Mirren supporters, to discuss what matters to our club.