The Referendum Thread

[Guest TPAFKATS]

so if we vote yes and go independent then to remain a euro member we need to declare ourselves as british and drop the idea of becoming outright scottish, but would the uk government have to allow us to be british or should we just not give up that right

No. We would enter into negotiations with rUK over a number of things. We would also start negotiating with the EU. As zurich allan and others have stated - There is no precedent for this.

Moldova and one of its near neighbours have just been given the green light by EU to apply.

Bearing this in mind - Does anyone seriously believe that the EU will overnight decide that 5 million Scots are no longer citizens of the EU?

ETA - the near neighbour is Georgia

Edited November 29, 2013 by TPAFKATS

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Elite swimming centre in Stirling to close as it and similar in Swansea both lose funding,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/swimming/25153367

Centres in Bath and Loughborough retained.

Another example of why we are Better Together

[saintnextlifetime]

No one but Scots would be voting initially to have a removal from the Eu.

On the one hand Scots would have exercised their rights as individuals to remove themselves from their existing Uk membership of the EU, whilst on the other hand, Scots would not want those rights taken away.

Hmmm. The words "eat and still have cake" spring to mind.

I'd be more than happy to lose my EU "rights". My forebears fought to stop this country being taken over by the Third Reich , only for an insidious thing which is actually , the Fourth Reich , to take away our citizenship as British/Scottish to be replaced by European . We are supposed to live in one big superstate called Europa, one big happy family . . nice

[bluto]

I'd be more than happy to lose my EU "rights". My forebears fought to stop this country being taken over by the Third Reich , only for an insidious thing which is actually , the Fourth Reich , to take away our citizenship as British/Scottish to be replaced by European . We are supposed to live in one big superstate called Europa, one big happy family . . nice

Fairy Nuff.

I was just quoting a Nat earlier - one of several on this thread - who fears losing his EU rights. Each to his own.

[saintnextlifetime]

Fairy Nuff.

I was just quoting a Nat earlier - one of several on this thread - who fears losing his EU rights. Each to his own.

Just don't know what those rights are , Bluto. Norwegians don't have them and they get to live in the richest country on the planet. .

[Stuart Dickson]

The yes camp have got their share of racists as well, I wouldn't even print some of the things I've been called for the crime of saying I will not be voting for independence. A despicable traitor and a coward is one of the few I can put in print.

I've even had one Nationalist in here threaten to confront me with a camera at a juvenile football match...

Edited November 30, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[bluto]

Just don't know what those rights are , Bluto. Norwegians don't have them and they get to live in the richest country on the planet. .

Then you're in good company , I suspect.

The majority of Nats are keen to maintain their Euroness and probably haven't a clue, either.

It's like keeping the fkn Queen, the Great British Pound, Strictly Come Dancing (how embarrassing is that?) and membership of NATO.

Wee Eck knows people are scared to lose those things and are scared of change so he claims that nothing will.

[RickMcD]

The same Fred Goodwin who advised Brown and Darling?

You might just find that Brown and Darling listened more to Mervyn KIng, even if they didn't heed him all the time. Goodwin's specialist subject on Mastermind would be how to f**k up a phenomenally successful bank in double quick time. How lucky to have Alex Salmond back him up.

[oaksoft]

Scotland is a member of the EU only by dint of the fact that it is a member of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Leaving the UK surely means that Scotland will have to reapply? Your faith in the White Paper is touching as is your faith in Alex Salmond. I'm afraid every time I see or hear him I recall his crawling attitude to that clown Fred Goodwin. I wouldn't trust him with the petty cash, never mind the economy.

Now you are not making sense.

If Scotland leaves the UK then the UK no longer exists as the entity which gained that EU membership.

There will be two remaining fragments of the original UK (Scotland and the rump)

If one is affected then the other must by definition also be affected.

The idea that one fragment can be treated any different than the other fragment is frankly ridiculous.

You can't have your argument both ways.

[bluto]

Now you are not making sense.

If Scotland leaves the UK then the UK no longer exists as the entity which gained that EU membership.

There will be two remaining fragments of the original UK (Scotland and the rump)

If one is affected then the other must by definition also be affected.

The idea that one fragment can be treated any different than the other fragment is frankly ridiculous.

You can't have your argument both ways.

You need to re-read Zurich Alan's contributions.

[oaksoft]

No they wouldn't I'm afraid Oaksoft. Much as I would love that to be true, it's not. The Member State is the UK, not Scotland, and the remaining elements of the UK would retain the position of Member State.

What we DO have as both Scots and Brits as things stand is citizenship of the EU, and as I explained a couple of posts ago, there are indeed laws in this regard, but effectively the EU abdicate those provisions to the Member States themselves. Under the white paper, if it was proposed that we retain British citizenship, we would almost certainly retain EU citizenship also. If, however, we adopt a new 'Scottish' citizenship as is proposed, we are entirely at the mercy of the UK Government as to whether or not we are allowed to also retain EU citizenship.

If we wanted to challenge such a decision, the challenge would be to either the Scottish or UK (or whatever it is called) Government, and not to the EU I'm afraid - the EU itself would have no jurisdiction to hear such a challenge.

So my argument on this would be to suggest that if Scotland voted for independence, then the original UK which gained that EU seat would no longer exist because it was negotiated by a "nation" which consisted of all 4 countries. Now there would be two fragments of that original UK - Scotland and the rump.

Neither realistically can claim sole ownership of that UK spot in the EU in the same way that a divorcing couple can't just take what they want from the married home when they leave inlcuding cars etc which are under shared ownership).

So either both would have to re-apply or both would leave or both would be allowed leave to remain. Either way, I would argue that what applies to one would apply to the other.

In a similar vein, East Germany became part of the EU when it joined West Germany. Neither of them had to re-apply did they? Or did the rules change after Maastricht? I'm not sure about that as I was quite young.

[oaksoft]

You need to re-read Zurich Alan's contributions.

I did and I've posted a perfectly good response to it.

There is no precedent for any of this and the debate is interesting.

Either contribute to it or butt out.

[bluto]

I did and I've posted a perfectly good response to it.

There is no precedent for any of this and the debate is interesting.

Either contribute to it or butt out.

It's not interesting nor is it a debate when someone can't understand the other's informed comment, so won't accept it.

FYI - you are the 'someone' to whom I refer.

[RickMcD]

Now you are not making sense.

If Scotland leaves the UK then the UK no longer exists as the entity which gained that EU membership.

There will be two remaining fragments of the original UK (Scotland and the rump)

If one is affected then the other must by definition also be affected.

The idea that one fragment can be treated any different than the other fragment is frankly ridiculous.

You can't have your argument both ways.

Well, I think you're wrong..It strikes me, as it did before Zurich Alan's posts, that in European terms Scotland as a single entity and being such a small country would have to put up a strong case. I don't see how it would simply be a rubber-stamping exercise. In fact Zurich Allan makes it very clear that in his opinion it will be far from that. Possibly you know better.

I don't see why you're all that bothered as you are, I think, the only poster on here who has confirmed that you would go for it even if Scotland is worse off. Suit yourself. Wha daur meddle wi Oaky? He wins when he loses.

[Stuart Dickson]

Then you're in good company , I suspect.

The majority of Nats are keen to maintain their Euroness and probably haven't a clue, either.

It's like keeping the fkn Queen, the Great British Pound, Strictly Come Dancing (how embarrassing is that?) and membership of NATO.

Wee Eck knows people are scared to lose those things and are scared of change so he claims that nothing will.

I've been catching up on the weeks TV and saw that Michael Portillo said much the same thing on This Week only he said it was now clear that Alex Salmond was the one who was scared of independence. He said that he had always wondered why someone campaigning for independence would want to put a third option on a ballot paper - Devo Max - which he described as all the benefits of Independence without the risks. He said now the white paper has been published he can see why. It's because Alex Salmond is scared of independence and scared of the consequences - so he's promised a future where Scotland attempts to cling on to everything like the Queen, the BBC, the EU and NATO.

[Stuart Dickson]

You might just find that Brown and Darling listened more to Mervyn KIng, even if they didn't heed him all the time. Goodwin's specialist subject on Mastermind would be how to f**k up a phenomenally successful bank in double quick time. How lucky to have Alex Salmond back him up.

Yep, Alex Salmond who wrote him love letters promising RBS all the help and assistance he could give to help them buy ABN Amro. What a f**king economist......

[Stuart Dickson]

So my argument on this would be to suggest that if Scotland voted for independence, then the original UK which gained that EU seat would no longer exist because it was negotiated by a "nation" which consisted of all 4 countries. Now there would be two fragments of that original UK - Scotland and the rump.

Neither realistically can claim sole ownership of that UK spot in the EU in the same way that a divorcing couple can't just take what they want from the married home when they leave inlcuding cars etc which are under shared ownership).

So either both would have to re-apply or both would leave or both would be allowed leave to remain. Either way, I would argue that what applies to one would apply to the other.

In a similar vein, East Germany became part of the EU when it joined West Germany. Neither of them had to re-apply did they? Or did the rules change after Maastricht? I'm not sure about that as I was quite young.

Dear oh f**king dear......

[Stuart Dickson]

It's not been a good couple of days on this thread for the Nationalists has it. Thing is this is exactly what will start to happen on a national scale. Nicola Sturgeon hasn't been honest with the electorate in the White Paper. What they should have done is outline everything from the base point and then state that they would negotiate to try and improve the situation.

They should have outlined their contingency plans for a Scotland that doesn't get EU membership, doesn't get NATO membership and that cannot use Sterling or the Euro as it's currency and costed it out. Could they afford an NHS under those circumstances? Could they afford state pensions? Would there have to be a radical the think about our welfare state, state education and healthcare? And if there was to be a radical rethink on each of those subjects how would they do it better and more efficiently than it's currently being done now.

What saddens me about the SNP is that they are a party that are relatively new to the idea of power and leadership and yet they've spent all their time in office conforming to standard and doing no more than tinkering around the edges with shite like free prescriptions. It's incredibly disappointing. They are even doing independence wrong. Imagine watering down the idea of independence so much that every bit of their white paper hangs every dependency on the will of others.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[bluto]

What saddens me about the SNP is that they are a party that are relatively new to the idea of power and leadership and yet they've spent all their time in office conforming to standard and doing no more than tinkering around the edges with shite like free prescriptions. It's incredibly disappointing. They are even doing independence wrong. Imagine watering down the idea of independence so much that every bit of their white paper hangs every dependency on the will of others.

Shite. I hate endorsing anything the troll says, but....

It's like a rerun of the failure years of Blair and Broon - a huge mandate to do the things that made them popular enough to get elected, then the bottle goes...

Oaky asked me to butt out of his... Sorry.... of this thread, so I shall for a while at least...

Ever-decreasing circles make me dizzy.

And we know where THEY end up.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

You might just find that Brown and Darling listened more to Mervyn KIng, even if they didn't heed him all the time. Goodwin's specialist subject on Mastermind would be how to f**k up a phenomenally successful bank in double quick time. How lucky to have Alex Salmond back him up.

Yep, Alex Salmond who wrote him love letters promising RBS all the help and assistance he could give to help them buy ABN Amro. What a f**king economist......

Your both being a wee bit subjective, especially dickos claim that the first minister of scotland would try and promote what was at the time one of the countries largest and most successful employers. If you wish to sling mud about he lack of accountability and monitoring at RBS it should be done in the direction of the company itself and the UK banking system, including the toothlessness of the regulator.

Oh, but good attempts at deflecting from the FACT that Goodwin did advise Brown & Darling. Typical Unionist behaviour - making stuff up, deflecting and scaremongering.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

It's not been a good couple of days on this thread for the Nationalists has it. Thing is this is exactly what will start to happen on a national scale. Nicola Sturgeon hasn't been honest with the electorate in the White Paper. What they should have done is outline everything from the base point and then state that they would negotiate to try and improve the situation.

They should have outlined their contingency plans for a Scotland that doesn't get EU membership, doesn't get NATO membership and that cannot use Sterling or the Euro as it's currency and costed it out. Could they afford an NHS under those circumstances? Could they afford state pensions? Would there have to be a radical the think about our welfare state, state education and healthcare? And if there was to be a radical rethink on each of those subjects how would they do it better and more efficiently than it's currently being done now.

What saddens me about the SNP is that they are a party that are relatively new to the idea of power and leadership and yet they've spent all their time in office conforming to standard and doing no more than tinkering around the edges with shite like free prescriptions. It's incredibly disappointing. They are even doing independence wrong. Imagine watering down the idea of independence so much that every bit of their white paper hangs every dependency on the will of others.

Only in your opinion Thicko Dicko.

This post of yours is just standard scary better together stuff - you're basically continuing the myth that Scotland is too wee, too poor and too stupid to survive, never mind prosper outwith the UK.

None of it can be backed up and you're conveniently ignoring the facts about the present deal scotland has, the state of the uk economy both now and in the future and ignoring the shite that is coming scotland's way should it vote no next year.

[RickMcD]

Your both being a wee bit subjective, especially dickos claim that the first minister of scotland would try and promote what was at the time one of the countries largest and most successful employers. If you wish to sling mud about he lack of accountability and monitoring at RBS it should be done in the direction of the company itself and the UK banking system, including the toothlessness of the regulator.

Oh, but good attempts at deflecting from the FACT that Goodwin did advise Brown & Darling. Typical Unionist behaviour - making stuff up, deflecting and scaremongering.

I have genuinely no knowledge of Goodwin advising Brown and Darling. Can you quote where and when? In case you're in any doubt, I'm no great fan of either of those guys and I don't have time for any of the major parties. I always thought that Brown would have made a better PM than Blair at the outset but by the time he got the job he was so bitter and twisted he was a disaster. Maybe Goodwin was so busy giving advice and having his end away with his bit of stuff that he didn't notice what was going on at RBS. Or maybe he was the tosser all along that he appears in retrospect.

[Stuart Dickson]

Your both being a wee bit subjective, especially dickos claim that the first minister of scotland would try and promote what was at the time one of the countries largest and most successful employers. If you wish to sling mud about he lack of accountability and monitoring at RBS it should be done in the direction of the company itself and the UK banking system, including the toothlessness of the regulator.

Oh, but good attempts at deflecting from the FACT that Goodwin did advise Brown & Darling. Typical Unionist behaviour - making stuff up, deflecting and scaremongering.

Salmond encouraged and offered to aid and abet RBS's disastrous purchase of ABN Amro at a time when others like Bank Of America were crunching into reverse gear to get the f**k away from it. Salmond also foolishly appeared on TV to slam Spivs and Speculators for damaging "a good banks share price" when RBS's share value was plummeting through the floor. He did this when the rest of the world knew the real reason for the plunging share price was the company couldn't cover it's liabilities.

He's also talked about Scotland being in the Arc of Prosperity - like Norway, Ireland and Iceland. An Independent Scotland would certainly be like two of them so I suppose two out of three ain't bad. We could certainly be as f**ked as Ireland and Iceland - but there's not much chance of us being like Norway if we let foreigners control our economic levers.

The man is a disaster whether you want to talk about economics or foreign diplomacy. His absurd ignorance over NATO and EU has blown the SNP's White Papers credibility out of the water. It's almost as though he's taken Trident and stuck it up his own arse and we're all waiting on the inevitable explosion.....

[Stuart Dickson]

Only in your opinion Thicko Dicko.

This post of yours is just standard scary better together stuff - you're basically continuing the myth that Scotland is too wee, too poor and too stupid to survive, never mind prosper outwith the UK.

None of it can be backed up and you're conveniently ignoring the facts about the present deal scotland has, the state of the uk economy both now and in the future and ignoring the shite that is coming scotland's way should it vote no next year.

Oh dear - you still got your fingers in your ears and a blindfold over your eyes? You're not listening to the growing weight of evidence. I pity you....

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Oh dear - you still got your fingers in your ears and a blindfold over your eyes? You're not listening to the growing weight of evidence. I pity you....

Classic trolling post

Ignore the points that I made and add some bluster that doesnt actually mean anything.

There is a lot of good debate on this thread - not from you though. You don't do facts, only opinions that you cant back up. Troll off