Big Fras

I'd agree with that Stuart - my only concern is that CiC fund-raising is initially going to be heading into paying off what would appear to be a purchase price that nobody else wants to pay. I'd be happier if the buying price was reduced, and the CiC funds could then materialise quicker into sustainable projects, infrastructure, and goal-scoring binmen from Possil. Other than that, there doesn't seem too much wrong with the concept.

If KMG is about as welcome as a bar of Cousin's Imperial Leather in the Cartsdyke area, then why should Richard end up punting an extra £750k to The Consortium. The CiC seems to be the only show in town, and would be in a position to call the shots, to some degree. Although signed up, I'd be much, much happier if the buying price was trimmed down (there appears to be no bugger else on the horizon). The BoD would get their well-deserved cut (at least the Consortium guys would), and the impressive number of pledgers (c.1000, plus "87 Club") would see their monthly contributions impact on the playing staff budget a lot quicker.......and I'd bet that is what the majority of pledgers want: CiC fan ownership improving the team budget to the betterment of St.Mirren FC. If the alternative is taking years to pay-off an uneccessarily high lump to the consortium, then I can see many getting p*ssed off as they don't see the actual team & player budget benefitting from their membership. I've been a critic, but the CiC model offers a unique opportunity, that we might as well go far in a "might as well try it" fashion, and the fan ownership idea is good - just ask any Man U fan (Hello SPS !). However, let's not see the initial waves & momentum, of goodwill & optmism, disappear within 1 year as people start looking for signs of positive impact on the playing staff.......but don't see that much of a positive financial impact compared to what £ is being brought in by members. This is because the £ is going to pay off the consortium at a price that nobody - nobody - was coming close to paying. SG & the gang get a pay-out anyway....I just rather that my monthly subs are going on the wages of the next Billy Abercromby or Frank Mcavennie quicker than they look set to be.

I'd be useless. Too fond of chatting and generally arsing around - I'd probably manage about 3 flyers. I'll stick to assisting in other ways from a remote distance. Mr.Tickle

Am The Walrus ? coo-coo-ci-choo

I'm sure it could in time Div. I've just got £18 worth of vouchers from the Co-Op as my 6 monthly dividend. Unfortunately, they are for what I have been spending my money on, so 'er indoors was less than chuffed to find the vouchers were solely for Stella, Wine and cigs. And I've meant to have quit the latter.

To most of us it would be enough just to be a member, but to be realistic in these times, there will need to be some form of "incentives". Nothing too mental, just a wee sweetener. I note that there are plans for kids / OAPs / family memberships - again, a good thing. I've spoken to RA today (he replied to an e-mail), and whilst there's no way I'll break any confidences, he is aiming to get as many people involved ASAP. Of course, this makes financial sense from the perspective of the CIC#2 bid, but I don't see anyone else (bar Mo'well) trying to get as many of the fans involved in a football club. Nobody is having an emotional "gun" pointed at their head to join up either (ie. SMFC are not in trouble). I also understand why they didn't press ahead with mass recruitment in the past (ie. if something went wrong - it did - then it would only magnify the already poor issues of communicating with fans). I'm a cynical auld bassa, not quite in Shull's league, but getting there. I've heard all the pros & cons, and I've seen the positive/gutsy reaction from the CIC to initial failure. This is an opportunity that would be wasted if we look back in later years. RA may not be a Saints Man, but what he is trying to do is something unique that would clearly have a large number of benefits to St.Mirren FC and its fans.....and that's from someone who has had more than his fair share of queries about the whole affair (still not happy about the £2m price though). The forum is so polarised - you are either anti/pro, with no room for debate nor persuasion, and that's a shame. I must have chilled out a bit lately. Age getting the better of me.

I think that would be a risky strategy as the CIC already has £1.6m in place, but who knows how it will all play out. At least the club isn't in a mess.

Months ago I flagged up the lack of any real attempt to engage the wider St.Mirren support in regards to joining the CIC - leafleting; using club databases; programme features; etc. Needless to say, Sid gave me a load of grief for such "bawbaggery". We have enough SMFC folk in the press (print , TV, radio) to give the whole thing a better platform for communication. Leaflets at games; mailing the Lotto database; mailing the B&WMag database; mailing the advertisers/corporate hospitality bookings for the last 24 months; etc. - all easily achievable. I've also given Richard the details of some low friends in high places that could also see the CIC concept get a bit of national publicity to the fitba fraternity. Slight concern is that in the economic climate, the run-up to Xmas is psychologically not the best time to approach people for extra spending ideas (even if the £ doesn't impact until 2012) On the flip side, Sid does have a good point re: community. For this to really work, the wider (non-SMFC) community need to be hooked in. Given the bad track record of PR with even the club's own supporters, I would suggest that 10,000Hours utilise the services of a PR company to address getting the Renfrewshire Community on board.

There seems to be some constant innuendo about "all other bids" - is this directed at KMG ? I don't know - does anybody else ? Nobody knows the details of the KMG bid. I cannot imagine that SG would have given it houseroom thus far, if they planned to raise debt against the club. Nobody knows if the KMG bid will involve supporter membership schemes for a place on the board; etc. The CIC#2 option is actually more preferable to the first version. It would still be my preferred choice, but it does seem unfair that any alternative option is being labelled as putting the club in danger / not involving the fans, when we just don't know this as a fact. I am just assuming that SG wouldn't indulge anyone throttling SMFC with debt. If the KMG crew don't go public with their plans, then they cannot really complain about missing the boat if CIC#2 gets the backing.

The best named musician on the planet.......and he's as cool as fook 'n all......... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bfmhHziXdI&feature=related

I agree 100% with the final sentence. This is the last thing anyone wants, but I would think SG & Co would refuse to sell to anyone with such a f*cked-up busines plan: hardly the sort of people who are "for the good of the club". I'll agree to differ with you on the "£2m genius" aspect. It could be argued that this is too high a market valuation, although presumably you would argue the opposite. The fact that the CIC could have been in charge now for a lesser (more realistic ?) price is potentially a missed opportunity. Also, the loans that the CIC were having to take did impact negatively on the additional funds for the playing staff budget for the first 2-3 years - Richard's words, not mine. However, if SG & Co can get £2m for their shares, then hats of to them. I think every other Director of a Football Club in Scotland (bar Mad Vlad) would be thinking "I wish that was me".

Is that true ? Or do they think it isn't worth £2m ? There is a big difference between the two.

The licensed trade is in a downward spiral at the moment, but other than that it seems like a fair enough idea. I recall reading about an English league 2 side (Torquay ?) whose fans were raising a similar amount, and it was solely used on a new player's salary. £96k pa will get you a more than half-decent experienced player in these economic times. In the case of Torquay, the guy got a squad number after the year of the club's founding. So in our case the supporters could own the "77" Shirt, and the annual fees would go towards his salary. I'm sure Danny Lennon would be chuffed anyway. It will probably never happen, but it's just an idea if the CIC model of supporter investment is NOT taken up by any other owner.....

Purely from my own perspective......what about those who were not really for it, but were persuaded. I thought that was the whole idea of "persuading" the masses to sign up and get some momentum going? It seemed like it wasn't allowed to have queries/criticisms, even if you were prepared to back the CIC. It came over from many posters that you had to be a hateful fanatic one way or the other. I bothered to contact RA, and he replied to my questions on several occasions. It was much more reliable than Sid's information feed. Consequently, I became generally supportive of the CIC, yet still had some reservations (buying price; management structure). Both were outwith my control, but the pros outweighed the cons, mainly because of the "asset lock". As for the "no scarves" - as far as I was concerned, it wasn't good enough that under RA's reign as Commercial Director, we have had a shambles of a club shop, and no online store. Not very helpful for FFFs. Most know that AWP is a pal of mine, but even if (for example) Greaves had been in charge of such a state of affairs they would have been rightly slagged off for it. When it is being run by the guy heading up the CIC, then people were bound to raise an eyebrow Roger Moore-style. Defending it by saying "the JD Sports deal was worth much more" is missing the point: shirt/tat sales opportunities were missed every week, thus missing out on revenue above and beyond the JD deal. Hopefully Div can get an online store sorted soon, as my in-laws need to be issued my annual Xmas list of "useless items with a crest on". Ice scraper anyone ?

Good interview, but why did SG agree to stand on a wobble board ? Up, down, side-to-side.......I was getting seasick.

To have got £1.3m lined up in these economic times of Aberdonian borrowing by banks and public bodies...that is not to be sniffed at. The "10,000 Hours" tag was a bad PR move, immediately lining themselves up for a fall, but stripping away all the BS (and there's been plenty), the idea of a ownership scheme that "locks" the main club assets away from predators (unless the board voted against it) is a very, very sensible thing in 2011. The supporter involvement/ownership is also a huge plus, although the "voice" did seem to be a bit diluted on a 3-tier board. Again this is an opportunity to look at restructuring that model, and giving 1,000+ "club members" a genuine "block vote" -type vote in key matters of the club. I'd also like to see kids/family/OAP memberships actively promoted through print/TV/online media over a period of 12-18 months. eg. Got an ageing relative who is a Saints fan ? Right, now he can be a "member" for £5/month. gets everyone involved - what's wrong with that ? As long as the fans do get a good say in how things are run.

I would think that this is a more realistic price, but if the BoD are in no hurry to sell, then why should they drop the price. I don't necessarily agree with that, but after all the years of sh*t, now that things are looking good on the pitch, maybe, just maybe they fancy hanging on a bit longer ? Who knows. My only with "issue" SG was related to a private matter outside of SMFC. There can be no denying that under his stewardship, the club is miles better off than when he took over, and it's not always been plain sailing in between. The JC-era was probably as dire as it got on/off the pitch, yet somehow we are in a shiny new ground, with bespoke training facilities, all bought and paid for. Writing as someone who once watched Brian Martin and Victor have a contest at throwing giant weeds around a ploughed field at Abbotsinch, during what was a "training session", the structure that the club is in now is excellent. I cannot be arsed trawling through the archived posts, but some people were having a dig at SG & Co for making a few bob out of the "payback" of the loans when the Tesco deal went through. I don't recall anyone on here sticking their houses/businesses on the line to bail SMFC out of the sh*te in 98, so if the BoD made a few bob from it, then so what. Beyond the hideous PR disaster that was the 10,000Hours timeline, a lot of very good ideas have been generated. I sincerely hope that whoever buys the club harnesses these,and uses them. In these economic times, it is remarkable that almost 1,000 supporters were prepared to buy into a scheme to have some form of say on the running of the club.......and that is without really having a proper go at promoting it beyond the internet, through press/media campaigns, and family/kids/OAP membership deals, etc. To me this demonstrates that there is the appetite for the St.Mirren support to genuinely get involved in large numbers in some form of fan ownership/representation. Just how this is structured/marketed in the future is for another day, but for small provincial teams, supporter-ownership schemes are the future, running in tandem with private/state backing, and are springing up at many FL sides in England, plus in some German and Dutch teams. the sentiment/intentions were right, the PR and execution were poor. Doesn't mean that's the end of involving the fans, be it CIC/KMG/GLS/ anyone else with 3 initials.

Essex and Greater Manchester aren't exactly conducive to midweek cup games Sid Nonetheless it is good that you went, as it appears to have been a sparse SMFC support (reasons for which will be debated on elsewhere doubtlessly) "The irony being I make no claims to be an uber fan" - the antics throughout the entire CIC thread may suggest otherwise, with shades of Idi Amin thrown in for good measure (joke). I do think its good that you go to the games, and raise the kids the right way. Good on you. As for my "credentials" - I was a home/away merchant week-in week out from the mid 80s-mid 90s, prior to that it was most home games and a decent smattering of away games each year. My own personal milestone/nadir was making it to all 44 league games plus LC, SC, and B&Q in 93/94. Mentally,I probably never recovered. I had some shite personal news tonight which (to quote Spinal Tap) "kinda puts this shit into perspective". So that's a truce from me, and I'll be busy elsewhere for a while. Chilled out thought for tonight: Even the great Saints teams disgraced themselves, only in 1980 (I think) we got rewarded with a game against Arsenal due to being pumped by the Sons in the SC. Get DL to give Arsene a call. COYS

f**king hell, it's Jimmy Sanderson! Next you'll be accusing me of "mendacity"

I can't help myself Sid. Like a fly drawn to a steaming pile of keich. You are right though - I was spoilt as a child. Spoilt on Fergie, Stak, Richardson, McGarvey & Co. What were you being spoilt on John ? Joe Filipi ? Shug Edvaldson ? Peter Latchford ? Joe Craig ? Once a 'tic always a 'tic FTOF

Oh dear. Enough said.

You used that description towards me in another thread. If using it here is some attempt to suggest I am undermining RA, then you are clearly as deluded as many suggest. I'll set the record straight, and hopefully you have your "readers" on today, and look at the previous pages: 1) RA has been more informative and welcoming than any of your drivel, and I have gone on record several times as being supportive of the CIC, ironically more so since the last public event where GLS was introduced. I say "ironically" as it is since the that the CIC seems to be copping a load of stick. 2) I may think the price being paid is OTT, but I'm not the only one.....far from it. Nonetheless, that doesn't stop me thinking that the CIC could be a very good thing for St.Mirren FC if run properly. 3) As for your other regular topic of innuendo: Sid - I may not like SG particularly much, but I have no issues whatsoever with the remainder of the selling consortium. They've all done well for SMFC, and I hope they ALL do well out of any sale. The only thing I do have a problem with is you coming on here, making stuff up, lying and generally being unnecessarily abusive towards fellow St.Mirren fans. Even mild-mannered Div posted that you talk a lot of sh*te, and it does seem that more than a few are of a similar view..... so I'll leave you to fight with them. I'm off to park out on NSS' "Wid Ye" thread instead - much more fun.

I didn't. I said that if we cannot run a club shop properly (something even you have acknowledged) then it does make you worry as to how the actual club would be run. Which is why I welcomed the arrival of GLS on the scene. No criticism anywhere of the CIC as a business model. I didn't say there was a loss to the playing side either. Making things up again. Tsk-tsk. Naughty boy. Sid - I haven't seen the annual accounts yet. You obviously have, as you so clearly state that sales are up. What were last year's figures ? What are this year's figures. You must know these to make such a bold assertion, and you're being such a tease by not letting on. What a cheeky scamp. However, you are the speaker of truth and justice, and have never been known to make things up.

I'd be very surprised if they accepted £14m if the final figure is proven to be as high as £40m (as suggested in the press). The tax avoidance scheme was rife in many football clubs, and it appears that RFC are being set up as a critical test case for future claims/settlements, so the taxman will want as good a result as possible. The £14m figure is the amount that Whyte has alluded to is his "max", but that may get little sympathy from HMRC. Anyhoo, so few people were interested in buying them before this shambles, that Lloyds let someone who appears to be a serial crook go through with the buy-out. Doesn't bode well for the bluenoses living in cloud cuckoo land about "r*ngers-minded saviours". sadly for the billy boys - they don't exist.

Sorry if I rattled your cage there Big Doug. No offence meant ! It would be nice if either SG or RA came out and gave the fans an update. They don't have to, but it woukld help. The PR from the CIC team has been a bit askew since the start, and certainly put a few folk off initially, including myself. The last outing seemed very constructive, I did expect to hear a lot more since the arrival of GLS. The current BoD have surely no interest in ignoring the general short-term running of the club, as it could only harm their sale if the CIC thing didn't work, so I would imagine we are still in safe hands, and general "direction" is just fine. The shambolic club shop situation probably isn't hugely financially significant, but can't really be helping. At the very least it is very bad PR, and doesn't do any favours with supporters. Like many others, the concern was/is that if we cannot run a shop properly, how the hell will the entire CIC be run. This is why I was pleased to see the arrival of GLS - at the very least he should go a long way to helping improve the management of the CIC. I think St.Mirren FC will be fine, regardless of the outcome......but that's probably too hippy-dippy for some folks who seemingly just want to squabble 24/7.