Now THIS would make me vote Indy...

[DougJamie]

7 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I fear I may be wasting my time on someone who believes that independence should be won "on the battlefield".

 

Your hilarious. Do you work for the Daily Star?

[DougJamie]

9 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I fear I may be wasting my time on someone who believes that independence should be won "on the battlefield".

 

Ok, let me explain this to you nice and slow, as ur obviously trying to pick a bit of a sentence to make a point. I know this might be hard for you but try and follow.

 

I said " I am a bit old fashioned" referring to Bannockburn which was a big battle that happened in the 14th century between Scots and English. Now in that battle people died as PCs had not been invented, still with me? , so the above reference was referring to last time we won Independence, I was actually not meaning killing people in 2016..

 

Tricky one and I easy to see how u got it wrong....... Is it time for your glas of milk yet?

[Stuart Dickson]

I agree. Modern day exploitation comes in the form of zero hour contracts which should be abolished.

I disagree. Zero hour contracts suit a large number of employees in this country. It allows them to earn and gain experience whilst not having to be committed to working rigid hours. It's the kind of freedom you extole for those who are self employed.

[oaksoft]

52 minutes ago, DougJamie said:

I said " I am a bit old fashioned" referring to Bannockburn which was a big battle that happened in the 14th century between Scots and English. Now in that battle people died as PCs had not been invented, still with me? , so the above reference was referring to last time we won Independence, I was actually not meaning killing people in 2016..

It's great that you have changed your mind about what you meant but what did you do with the nappy?

[oaksoft]

59 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

I disagree. Zero hour contracts suit a large number of employees in this country. It allows them to earn and gain experience whilst not having to be committed to working rigid hours. It's the kind of freedom you extole for those who are self employed.

 

When you say "a large number of employees" what you ACTUALLY mean is "my son".

We can't have an economy run on abuse of 1 million employees who don't know from one week to the next whether they are going to be able to get enough hours to pay their rent or not and worried about how to plug the shortfall.

We can't have an economy where employees are scared to phone in sick in case their hours are cut to zero (Burger King, Amazon and virtually every restaurant in the country).

We can't have an economy build on what is best for university students.

This may suit your son but in the real world of adult employment abusive zero hour contracts are a major scandal. It's a far bigger problem than people being on the dole. If you don't believe me simply try phoning around for jobs in the service sector. Once you get past the bullshit description of "full time hours" try calling in sick or saying No to a shift, or booking a holiday or getting permission to take on a second job. Then come back to me and tell me you understand the problem.

At that point we can discuss the huge list of companies who don't pay the National Minimum Wage and include things like "tips" or "performance bonuses" (neither of which are guaranteed) in your wage to pretend that they ARE paying the NMW.

Then we can discuss the companies who set ludicrous targets such as Amazon and call centres who routinely have their staff climbing the walls in despair and stress over them with sackings being a daily fear.

Like everything else Stuart, you have nothing but a superficial understanding of the reality of this type of work.

Edited August 3, 2016 by oaksoft

[DougJamie]

25 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

It's great that you have changed your mind about what you meant but what did you do with the nappy?

Your wearing it on your head obviously lol

[Stuart Dickson]

When you say "a large number of employees" what you ACTUALLY mean is "my son".

We can't have an economy run on abuse of 1 million employees who don't know from one week to the next whether they are going to be able to get enough hours to pay their rent or not and worried about how to plug the shortfall.

We can't have an economy where employees are scared to phone in sick in case their hours are cut to zero (Burger King, Amazon and virtually every restaurant in the country).

We can't have an economy build on what is best for university students.

This may suit your son but in the real world of adult employment abusive zero hour contracts are a major scandal. It's a far bigger problem than people being on the dole. If you don't believe me simply try phoning around for jobs in the service sector. Once you get past the bullshit description of "full time hours" try calling in sick or saying No to a shift, or booking a holiday or getting permission to take on a second job. Then come back to me and tell me you understand the problem.

At that point we can discuss the huge list of companies who don't pay the National Minimum Wage and include things like "tips" or "performance bonuses" (neither of which are guaranteed) in your wage to pretend that they ARE paying the NMW.

Then we can discuss the companies who set ludicrous targets such as Amazon and call centres who routinely have their staff climbing the walls in despair and stress over them with sackings being a daily fear.

Like everything else Stuart, you have nothing but a superficial understanding of the reality of this type of work.

Sounds like the self employed world you'd like to see most people get involved in though doesn't it? If you've got no orders you get no pay. If you're in hospital you're losing money. If you've got a deadline or a target to meet you can forget clocking off after 8 hours. And if you f**k up or you're desperate there's no pretence, you probably aren't going to be earning the NMW.

The irony isn't wasted on me that you think one is awesome, brilliant and gives you freedom - even without money - whilst the other is nasty, exploitative and a sort of entrapment.

I can compare close up. My eldest son worked all his way through student life in zero hours contracts. Work was fitted in around his studies and his hobbies. My girlfriends daughter had two fixed hour contracts - one at Asda and then one with a legal firm. In both cases she had to deal with uncompromising bosses who would deny her time off to attend classes and study groups. Indeed the law firm did everything in her power to try to force her to leave University without completing her degree because she was making them a great deal of money in the role she was in.

It's not the type of contract, it's the intent of the employer that needs addressed. You are focused on the wrong target

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Sounds like the self employed world you'd like to see most people get involved in though doesn't it? If you've got no orders you get no pay. If you're in hospital you're losing money. If you've got a deadline or a target to meet you can forget clocking off after 8 hours. And if you f**k up or you're desperate there's no pretence, you probably aren't going to be earning the NMW
I can compare close up. My eldest son worked all his way through student life in zero hours contracts. Work was fitted in around his studies and his hobbies. My girlfriends daughter had two fixed hour contracts - one at Asda and then one with a legal firm. In both cases she had to deal with uncompromising bosses who would deny her time off to attend classes and study groups. Indeed the law firm did everything in her power to try to force her to leave University without completing her degree because she was making them a great deal of money in the role she was in.
 

 

So you DO recognise the problem then. They are routinely abused by the majority of companies which renders the contracts themselves problemmatic. There are so many cases of abuse it wouldnt be possible to focus just on the bad employers. ZHC contract abuse is the norm. Your son was the exception to the rule and was hugely fortunate.

As regards self employment, it is one thing being paid under the NMW when you are voluntarily working for yourself. It is quite another when you are forced to do this in employment where it breaks the law. Do you really think those two things are the same?

[oaksoft]

2 hours ago, DougJamie said:

Your wearing it on your head obviously lol

I am sure that in your head this made perfect sense. Written down though,........

[Stuart Dickson]

2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

So you DO recognise the problem then. They are routinely abused by the majority of companies which renders the contracts themselves problemmatic. There are so many cases of abuse it wouldnt be possible to focus just on the bad employers. ZHC contract abuse is the norm. Your son was the exception to the rule and was hugely fortunate.

As regards self employment, it is one thing being paid under the NMW when you are voluntarily working for yourself. It is quite another when you are forced to do this in employment where it breaks the law. Do you really think those two things are the same?

Did you miss the point I made? 

My son had several Zero Hours Contracts. It suited him and his priorities whilst at University. My girlfriends daughter had FIXED HOUR CONTRACTS with two companies, that really didn't suit her or her priorities whilst at University. She was the one who had the employers who were less than supportive, whilst my son could simply say "no". 

The cycle is re-occurring. My youngest son is working for the same employer on a zero hour contract whilst studying at college. He takes on shifts or refuses shifts dependent on when his football team have matches, whether or not he wants to go watch St Mirren or his study pattern. Right now he's working around 25 hours per week. In comparison my girlfriends son has a fixed hour contract at IKEA. They've been much better with him than the other two companies were with his sister, but he's got no flexibility to pick up or refuse shifts and as a result he's had to stop playing for his bowling club in league competition which he really enjoyed. 

I don't believe anyone is tricked into a zero hours contract and I don't see how you can abuse is the norm in a zero hour contract if you haven't checked with all those working on zero hour contracts. 

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Did you miss the point I made? 

My son had several Zero Hours Contracts. It suited him and his priorities whilst at University. My girlfriends daughter had FIXED HOUR CONTRACTS with two companies, that really didn't suit her or her priorities whilst at University. She was the one who had the employers who were less than supportive, whilst my son could simply say "no". 

The cycle is re-occurring. My youngest son is working for the same employer on a zero hour contract whilst studying at college. He takes on shifts or refuses shifts dependent on when his football team have matches, whether or not he wants to go watch St Mirren or his study pattern. Right now he's working around 25 hours per week. In comparison my girlfriends son has a fixed hour contract at IKEA. They've been much better with him than the other two companies were with his sister, but he's got no flexibility to pick up or refuse shifts and as a result he's had to stop playing for his bowling club in league competition which he really enjoyed. 

I don't believe anyone is tricked into a zero hours contract and I don't see how you can abuse is the norm in a zero hour contract if you haven't checked with all those working on zero hour contracts. 

So you only listen and read what news you like. Sports Direct have a wee Google on zero hours contract.

[Stuart Dickson]

2 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

So you only listen and read what news you like. Sports Direct have a wee Google on zero hours contract.

Sports Direct is one of the companies both my sons have worked for. I don't need someone elses word on it. I know how many kids in the local area get their first experience of working life through their stores. 

[oaksoft]

2 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Sports Direct is one of the companies both my sons have worked for. I don't need someone elses word on it. I know how many kids in the local area get their first experience of working life through their stores. 

FFS 

The one company dragged through a government inquiry due to abuse of staff and you present them as the good guys.

Ashley ADMITTED his company was abusing staff. But apparently we should ignore his views and accept yours as gospel.

Hilarious. 

[oaksoft]

4 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

So you only listen and read what news you like. Sports Direct have a wee Google on zero hours contract.

You can take your pick of transport companies as well and add that to the list.

[Stuart Dickson]

2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

FFS 

The one company dragged through a government inquiry due to abuse of staff and you present them as the good guys.

Ashley ADMITTED his company was abusing staff. But apparently we should ignore his views and accept yours as gospel.

Hilarious. 

No, what you should do is read what Ashley actually said in his testimony. He admitted that for a "specific" period of time he paid some staff at his Shirebrook warehouse less than the minimum wage, and he admitted that the tannoy system at Shirebrook has been used by some of his managers to criticise staff as they worked, which he said was an abuse. No questions were asked and no evidence was given about staff working in his retail outlets - which BTW - operate on very similar terms to many other high street retailers. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/07/live-mike-ashley-appears-in-front-of-mps-for-sports-direct-grill/

Are things bad though? Well consider this. In 1988 - aged 18 and working in my third year on an apprenticeship programme that was approved and part funded by trade unions which now form a large part of the GMB - I earned £75 per week for 40 hours. I'd just received a pay rise having previously worked for £35 per week in my first year, and £42 per week in my second. Even allowing for inflation that £75 is worth no more than £140 in today's terms. I was expected by my employer to be able to do the same work, to the same standard by that stage as any other tradesman within the company to the same standard, but perhaps at a slightly slower speed. This month my youngest son, 18 years old, brought home over £600 working no more than 3 days per week in his first ever job.

For clarity though I'm not painting Sports Direct as good guys. I'm simply saying that zero hour contracts serve a valuable purpose for many of the nations students and offer them all of the freedoms you describe as being exclusive to those who are self employed, without any worry that their work for that day might not be rewarded financially.

And to bring this back on topic ofcourse, the SNP's big partner employer - the one they like to give huge tax breaks to - is Amazon. That well highlighted fantastic zero hour contract employer. Would that make you vote indy? 

http://www.channel4.com/news/anger-at-amazon-working-conditions

Edited August 4, 2016 by Stuart Dickson

[oaksoft]

So you agree that Sports Direct have a problem with staff abuse then. FFS why can you simply not admit that.

Everything is a battle with you.

You cannot run an economy for the benefit of students.

End of.

[Stuart Dickson]

So you agree that Sports Direct have a problem with staff abuse then. FFS why can you simply not admit that.

Everything is a battle with you.

You cannot run an economy for the benefit of students.

End of.

Where did I say we should run the economy for students? I simply stated that zero hour contracts suited many people and that they aren't the abuse you've made it out to be.

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

Where did I say we should run the economy for students? I simply stated that zero hour contracts suited many people and that they aren't the abuse you've made it out to be.
 

 

"For clarity though I'm not painting Sports Direct as good guys. I'm simply saying that zero hour contracts serve a valuable purpose for many of the nations students"

You cannot and should not run an economy to suit the needs of students.

[DougJamie]

I still think we should settle all this in a field just outside Stirling  

 

[Stuart Dickson]

"For clarity though I'm not painting Sports Direct as good guys. I'm simply saying that zero hour contracts serve a valuable purpose for many of the nations students"

You cannot and should not run an economy to suit the needs of students.

Again I have not claimed anywhere that we run an economy for students

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

Again I have not claimed anywhere that we run an economy for students

 

What works for students shouldn't even be a consideration.

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, DougJamie said:

I still think we should settle all this in a field just outside Stirling  

 

5pm tonight. Full medieval armour. See you there. Meet me at entrance to the town centre indoor shopping precinct.

So that I can recognise you, wear a red flower.

[DougJamie]

12 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

5pm tonight. Full medieval armour. See you there. Meet me at entrance to the town centre indoor shopping precinct.

So that I can recognise you, wear a red flower.

A Red Flower?? I would slice me in two with that. I will be the one with the freedom tee shirt with the " sh@gged the princess of wales honest" slogan on the back

[Stuart Dickson]

What works for students shouldn't even be a consideration.

Why? It's an entry level job position. Usually under taken by people who don't want full time hours and it suits the employer. You'd need to be a right Dick head to want to damage business and jobs by restricting that.