Scabby Dug

let's face it, RA is first & foremost a business man, & is also a director of another Company. Therefore he would get my vote, probably.

let's face it, RA is first & foremost a business man, & is also a director of another Company. Therefore he would get my vote, probably.

That suggestion was actually made from the floor last night and got a big reception from most of us here. SG replied in response to the suggestion that while the smaller clubs in the SPL make money out of OF crowds and a bigger TV deal due to the OF being part of the deal, that, as you say, the OF also need the other 8, 10, 12 teams in the SPL to have a league to play in... In his reply SG reckoned that if the other clubs tried booting the OF out the SPL the OF would appeal to UEFA to play in England and that Sky would welcome the prospect of the OF playing in the Championship or EPL and Sky might threaten to pull their TV deal with the EPL and Champions League etc unless UEFA and EPL allowed the OF in. SG also spoke about how Sky have too much power because no one else is putting in anything close to the amount of money Sky invest in EPL and said Sky basically hold all the cards. I think the feeling last night about SG's section was that people were amazed at how bleak things look for the SPL clubs being able to agree any positive changes for the benefit of the top clubs in Scottish football, but nonetheless SG had given the fans a candid flavour of what the negotiations are like and what a lot of the issues and stumbling blocks are... i.e as well as the OF wanting to cream off as much money for themselves and design a league that suits them best you have clubs like Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee United not liking the idea of a 14 team league and a split structure which could see them playing in the bottom 8 if they don't do well in the first bit of the season and how their fans wouldn't be happy being seen as a bottom 8 club rather than one of the teams challenging the OF.

I took notes at both meetings for a mate who couldn't attend, thought I'd place them up here. They use the slide pack for reference and I've not counted the front page in the numbering. I hope this help for people who don't want to trawl through numerous threads.
(Quick edit made to remove a comment that relates to a discussion with my mate, makes no sense to a wider audience)
Very good discussion with Stewart Gilmour about the reconstruction vote, doesn't think it'll go through.
He said the club can't survive on a 16 team league, I asked whether indoor winter football has a price from TV and it didn't look like they'd really examined that too much...or that they intend to.
The 14 league is really being scuppered by Aberdeen, Hibs & Hearts...worried about the 6/8 split. Currently the 12th in the SPL gets 720K, 1st in SFL gets 54K. The intention for SPL Championship is for 500K down to 225K with any side relegated topped up to 700K.
r*ngers and c*ltic not against the 14 team league, but the 11-1 voting dictated by them will destroy things. "Removing the OF" would cause it's own issues.
CIC - He also stated the CIC is the best option they've seen. A number of other offers would have used the stadium with the banks, the Italian consortium is indeed the Massone one.
Slide 1:
CIC's have only been around since 2005, Limited company behaviour, Charity Aims & Objectives and can only apply for money the qualify for.
Slide 2:
The circling numbers are the 8 funding figures applied for.
The Club currently breaks even, any regular buyer would either have to pay hefty tax or put a loan against the club. 800K - 1.2 million will be in the form of loans, but it's not from banks and not from organisations who'd look to foreclose. Indeed, Social Returns could see the loans drop to grants proportionately. A Social Return would be proof the CIC have assisted 60 drug addicts for example or 60 jobless..that sort of thing. Part of the funding provision is dependant on the CIC providing X amount of hours of various social assistance ventures. Interest varies from 0 - 8% over 3 - 10 years.
As SMFC are not a PLC there's no need to offer for other shares or even offer the 48% anything, the constitution of the club has always been there for all to see.
Letters for all funding are in place, the security is the 52% shareholding. Worst Case Scenario, real armageddon plague and locusts stuff, is in 3 years the club is up for 800 - 900K. No social lender has ever liquidated a company.
No bank will touch Saints to give them even a 100K overdraft. That's the bit that I think a lot of people just don't get.
Social Return On Investment was also very well explained and sounds very interesting. As an example, Kibble will run the space for the Erskine event and that will see Kibble people given jobs (return 1), the CIC providing a location for this (return 2) and Erskine having somewhere to potentially bring in more funding etc (return 3). All SROI can help with drawing eliminating some loans, so although it's in a debt cycle it's also in a discount cycle.
Slide 4:
2500 Season Ticket Holders
900 Shareholders
300 individual members for a minimum of 1 year, paying 10 a month 12 corporate members for the mimimum of 1 year, paying 10K a year 24 community members for the minimum of 1 year, paying 500 a year
The 10000 Hours site says 21 Community and 9 Corporate, we've actually outdone that although the numbers won't be amended until the due dilligence is complete on each pledgee. For Individuals it's at around 525 just now, no real major international push or TV coverage.
There may be family packages, yet another thing to consider at the first members meeting.
Slide 6:
The roof on the current corporate area is around floor level of the proposed community floor in the newly developed second space...basically same size as corporate and across the landing. This area will also be the Members and guest social bar open pre and post match.
The new area will cost 100K to fit out, the building warrant has already gone in and Kibble have been very "take a punt" over it already. The club will have use for it's own functions, whilst the Members Bar takings will go to the CIC until such time as the costs are amortised. Likewise should the CIC use it for a function then they get the takings.
Slide 7:
As we go on revenue will be brought in without the usually associated overhead. For example, members will naturally use the space instead of Campbell or new staff chasing bookings. Kelburne, Accord, a church and Erskine spring as immediate users for their own and extra activities.
Slide 8:
Some people surprised there's an Executive Board. The 10000hours CIC is where the debt sits, the elected Members Board will still need sign-off on Budgets and significant contracts...no different to how professional adults usually operate. The elected members board can also make up the club board, but not fill, and the 48% will be represented on the club board.
Slide 9:
Wage budget of 1.3 million
52 Events a year would add 7.5%
500 more people per game would add 8% 4000 additional purchases and transactions brings 4.5%
So, they feel 20% could be added to the playing budget...equivalent to about 5 good players or 5 better players.
Extra Notes:
The bar would cost a 6 figure sum, the CIC will trade it until that's amortised. All debts should be paid by 10 years, but again the club is NOT in debt. Additionality effect, you add a company on board they see the facilities and use them. Any problems with debt the CIC renegotiates, won't affect the club ("Eh, I still don't get it blah blah") 1st division drop is in business plan, naturally enough and good. No increase in fees, overhead would have to be shaved. It's hoped the 20% would be reality after year 1.
None of the Community or Corporate pledgees have stated that paying these fees will remove cash that would otherwise have gone to the club. So, in other words, it doesn't look like ad boards or hospitality will suffer.
The funding is staggered, in May we could see a Consortium sign in to go to some sort of shadowing deal whereby the CIC takes over. It has a do by date of August, at which time the board will go and get more than the 2 mill...probably less than they could have...by going back to the other interested parties. At that points Saints fans won't be able to complain or blame anyone except themselves.
There will be a shareholders meeting, then the next public meeting is intended to be a members meeting with early voting.

Having read Richard Atkinson’s information document, seen his presentation slides and read the live Tweet report from the public meeting last week, St Mirren fans should be aware of the following before deciding whether or not to give their money to the 10,000 Hours CIC company -
1. St Mirren fans and the local community will NOT be in ‘control of the destiny of the club’ as Mr Atkinson puts it. Despite all the PR spin and media hype, St Mirren fans will NOT be running the club.
At the public meeting and stated in the live Tweet of the meeting, Mr Atkinson said that an executive board of 10,000 Hours - made up of Mr Atkinson and ‘the guys who have created the CIC’ will retain control of St Mirren’s ‘budget’ and ‘significant contracts’.
This executive board is self-appointed, unelected, unaccountable and does not contain representatives of the fans paying £10 a month, community groups paying £500 a year or companies paying £10,000 a year.
The club’s budget, (how much is spent on the player pool) and who is offered a ‘significant contract’ (manager, coaches and players) are the two most important areas that are central to the success of any football club and whether St Mirren remains in the SPL or is taken to the lower divisions.
This small band of individuals on Mr Atkinson’s executive board - and not the members board of 10,000 Hours made up of fans’ representatives - will effectively control the club.
2. Under the CIC proposals, St Mirren Football Club will lose out on revenue that normally would have gone directly to the club for player budgets etc. Instead of going to the club, this money will be used to repay the loans taken out to pay off the directors who are selling their shares.
Mr Atkinson says in his information document that ‘it is 10000hours that is entering into any borrowing, and not the club directly.’ However, he goes on to admit ‘the funding to repay any debt will come from two main areas. Firstly, the enhanced trading of the assets of St Mirren FC an area all recognise as under-utilised, especially since the stadium move.
Mr Atkinson is admitting that extra revenue from ‘trading on the assets’ of the club will not go to the club but to pay off the CIC debt incurred to buy the shares of Gilmour and Co. While Mr Atkinson is claiming he doesn’t intend to use the stadium to secure the CIC’s debt, he is going to use revenue from St Mirren FC to pay off that debt.
This is confirmed in the Tweet report of the public meeting last week which says ‘Richard explaining that the club has many under-utilised assets. 10000Hours intends to use these assets to generate extra revenue.’
And revealing what is going to happen to this extra revenue from the club, Mr Atkinson says in his presentation ‘Most fans that are familiar with the new stadium in comparison to the old recognize that there are a number of underutilized assets. 10000hours will exploit these opportunities in order to pay off any debt element of the funding.’
In a nutshell, the fans are being asked to fund the 10,000 Hours purchase of the consortium’s majority shareholding along with over £1 million in loans. Money that would normally benefit the club through its own commercial activities will instead go to pay off the debts taken on by the CIC to buy a majority shareholding.
And while all this is going on, the real power and influence in how the club is being run - control of the club’s budget, who the manager is and which players are signed – lies with Mr Atkinson and his friends on the executive committee with no input from fans or community.

Casalinouvo is a 'sand dancer'. IMO, he looks good enough to deceive. He has been found out at United, and now Accies

Casalinouvo is a 'sand dancer'. IMO, he looks good enough to deceive. He has been found out at United, and now Accies

Cunning plan. Instead of becoming a CIC, why don't St Mirren become a bankrupt country.

Absolutely. The difference with us and religion in the Old Firm is that we don't favour any religion. The bigots do, and we should treat them just as any other community interest wishing to use our facilities. All are welcome. Except Nazis/old firm agendas. They are not.

and for years just about every supporter in Scotland outwith the OF has said KEEP RELIGION OUT OF FOOTBALL.