The Day Fan Ownership Died!

[BoWSaint]

I think it would be a helluva plot twist if it did turn out that Richard Atkinson, GLS or Tony Fitzpatrick did turn out to be evil St Mirren hating asset strippers and managed to take SMFC to the cleaners and leave us weeping in a pit of despair where our stadium used to be. I also don't see how they could actually do this within the 10000hrs setup. I don't see how I (as a £10/month member) could use this opportunity to take money or assets out the club either. Everything points to a bunch of very decent, like-minded people actually trying to DO something. That has to be applauded. Why does it have to be a big conspiracy with a sour ending? I accept some of the sticking points that people have but a little bit of faith for a mere tenner a month when the potential rewards are so great is well worth the risk in my opinion.

Edited May 29, 2012 by BoWSaint

[Guest somner9]

I think it would be a helluva plot twist if it did turn out that Richard Atkinson, GLS or Tony Fitzpatrick did turn out to be evil St Mirren hating asset strippers and managed to take SMFC to the cleaners and leave us weeping in a pit of despair where our stadium used to be. I also don't see how they could actually do this within the 10000hrs setup. I don't see how I (as a £10/month member) could use this opportunity to take money or assets out the club either. Everything points to a bunch of very decent, like-minded people actually trying to DO something. That has to be applauded. Why does it have to be a big conspiracy with a sour ending? I accept some of the sticking points that people have but a little bit of faith for a mere tenner a month when the potential rewards are so great is well worth the risk in my opinion.

Everyone entitled to their own opinion. My two questions are:

Why has there never been a forecast of what extra revenue will be made available to SMFC as a result of all the CiC activities (Bar, SRTB £25k club, SRTB £3K club, etc etc)?

Why has any chance of genuine fan involvement in running thier club been so meaningless and contiually downgraded by 10000 hours?

[BoWSaint]

Everyone entitled to their own opinion. My two questions are:

Why has there never been a forecast of what extra revenue will be made available to SMFC as a result of all the CiC activities (Bar, SRTB £25k club, SRTB £3K club, etc etc)?

Well I am under the impression that once the debts are paid off then the members will have the chance to vote on what goes back into the club. I don't have any insider information as to why a forecast hasn't been presented. It is possibly because 10000hrs actually DO want it to be run by the fans and therefore they can't predict how any future voting will go regarding fund distribution. If they start dictating where all the money goes then they will be met with criticism for not allowing a democracy to decide.

Why has any chance of genuine fan involvement in running thier club been so meaningless and contiually downgraded by 10000 hours?

An unfortunate scenario which I don't deny. However, I don't know if Richard has attempted anything as ambitious as this in the past and he will probably admit that he could/would/should have approached some things differently in hindsight. It certainly isn't enough for me to denounce the whole idea. So you have to do a little bit of work to find out some of the answers; maybe even contact the guy directly. It's hardly the end of the world. I'm still willing to give it a go.

What's the worst that could happen?

[Guest somner9]

Well I am under the impression that once the debts are paid off then the members will have the chance to vote on what goes back into the club. I don't have any insider information as to why a forecast hasn't been presented. It is possibly because 10000hrs actually DO want it to be run by the fans and therefore they can't predict how any future voting will go regarding fund distribution. If they start dictating where all the money goes then they will be met with criticism for not allowing a democracy to decide.

Why were the revenue generating schemes already decided and carved up between a number of organisations that will make serious money out of the facilities and support at SMP, without letting ANY fans become involved and question why none of this money is going to the club?

Could it be because 10000 hours and their pals don't want the kaibosh put on their money making schemes? It's not being run by the fans it was all carved up before the fans ever knew about it.

An unfortunate scenario which I don't deny. However, I don't know if Richard has attempted anything as ambitious as this in the past and he will probably admit that he could/would/should have approached some things differently in hindsight. It certainly isn't enough for me to denounce the whole idea. So you have to do a little bit of work to find out some of the answers; maybe even contact the guy directly. It's hardly the end of the world. I'm still willing to give it a go.

What's the worst that could happen?

It crashes and burns as people quickly realise they have no say on how things are done as their are vested intrests running the club some with creditor status before it's even begun. If it (CiC) crashes and burns, goes into administration then the Club will be docked points, possibly relegated and suffer the severe Newco fair play proposals as a result. Which for our club would probably mean ceasing to exist...period!

That's about the worst that could happen, as quick or even quicker than C Whyte achieved up the road.

[BoWSaint]

Why were the revenue generating schemes already decided and carved up between a number of organisations that will make serious money out of the facilities and support at SMP, without letting ANY fans become involved and question why none of this money is going to the club?

Could it be because 10000 hours and their pals don't want the kaibosh put on their money making schemes? It's not being run by the fans it was all carved up before the fans ever knew about it.

I think there is a bit of a chicken and egg thing here. We need to get these guys on board initially to get enough capital to start the proverbial ball rolling. I don't see them making serious money from SMFC and the support tho and I have no problem with them enjoying some benefits for their financial support in the CIC. Why does it have to be so sinister?

It crashes and burns as people quickly realise they have no say on how things are done as their are vested intrests running the club some with creditor status before it's even begun. If it (CiC) crashes and burns, goes into administration then the Club will be docked points, possibly relegated and suffer the severe Newco fair play proposals as a result. Which for our club would probably mean ceasing to exist...period!

That's about the worst that could happen, as quick or even quicker than C Whyte achieved up the road.

If the CIC crashes and burns then the investors like me will have lost the sum of our £10 per month i.e. no big loss. If the CIC goes into administration why will the club be docked points? SMFC won't be in administration. They are two completely separate companies. It is nothing like the Craig Whyte situation. If the CIC doesn't do what it says it is going to do and the investors (like me) all walk away then any debt will lie solely with the CIC and NOT with SMFC. We will be back to square one and looking for someone to buy this 52% stake i.e. the exact same position we are in now.

That's my understanding of it anyway. I honestly think that it is more likely that the 10000hrs guys are trying to do good rather than bad here. I am just glad that someone is doing something. Situations pass by all the time when people have great ideas but do nothing about them. Now we have a golden opportunity where someone has actually taken the initiative to give it a go. Call me naive but I'm giving RA the benefit of the doubt. The rewards are too great to not take the risk.

[div]

I find it difficult to understand why some St.Mirren fans could be so opposed to the club being controlled by a community interest company that is in turn owned equally by it's members - the St.Mirren supporters.

The owners of that community interest company will be able to define the constitution of the organisation themselves. The current document is a working draft and is miles away from being ratified.

The members of 10000Hours will have five months to sort out all the details of the constitution and to offer to stand for election to serve on either the 10000Hours board or the Football Club board.

In the meantime an interim board including at least one current director, one former director and one former club player and manager will be formed and continue to run the football club whilst all the intricate details of the 10000Hours constitution are established.

Those wailing about not the fans not being involved are putting the boot into the ONLY model currently on offer where the fans WILL be involved.

It is very unlikely that the St.Mirren supporters will get the chance again to takeover a healthy and thriving St.Mirren Football Club.

I'm supportive only for what is best for St.Mirren and for me that means the fans being in control of the majority shareholding.

Unless a private individual is going to come in and use his/her own cash to fund a takeover then the chances are high that they will be borrowing capital which has been secured against the football club in some shape or form. This isn't scaremongering, it's simple common sense and in three years there has not been a single private bid that has met the requirements of the consortium in terms of value or in terms of acceptable risk to the football club.

The current board of directors have done a great job in getting the club to this point. It would be a crying shame if the fans walked away from a genuine chance to ensure the long term future of the club.

Hopefully enough Saints fans will see past the trolling and get over the apathy of what has been a long and complex process and appreciate that the fans WILL own the majority shareholding of the club in this model. Fan ownership of St.Mirren is 100% real and there to be had, IF we want it.

[Guest somner9]

I think the majority of fans have seen through this bedraggled process of incompetence and continually shifting goalposts by an outfit that are so serious about fan involvement they dissapear for months on end.

10000 hours have still to make a public statement on the risks SMFC is exposed to if their version whatever of a CiC fails. Not surprised at that because they NOW know having had it pointed out to them by Smisa that as the parent company owning the majority of shares if the CiC and its 600 members hits the skids we could lose the whole club! still why would they want to confirm that.

Why after three years is there not one single fan group supporting 10000 hours? That speaks for itself

Why have the assets, facilities and significant money making streams at SMP already been promised to organisations that will return NONE of it to SMFC???

The proposed bar/function facility will as Mr Kibbles explained be a busy function suite looking to be in use everyday of the year! But returning nothing to SMFC save PEPPERS in rent.

If you define fan ownership as putting up the majority of the funds needed to buy SMFC then perhaps that narrow definition is true? However the definition of Fan Ownership that the rest of the world outside 10000 hours subscribes to is one where the people putting up the funds are represented at every level of decision making, before, during and after the sale has concluded. and we know so far for 10000 hours they've struck out twice out of two!

and they've put forward their agenda to ensure it will be three strikes and fan ownership (as every other fan knows it) out!

If it looked good, and seemed positive it would have happened a year ago! it doesn't and thats why it won't!

[div]

ANY majority shareholder could hit financial problems.

Spreading the risk over several hundred fans each contributing a small amount each month massively reduces the risk of the ownership of the club EVER failing.

If 10000Hours owned the majority shareholding of the club and failed it would be because several hundred St.Mirren fans ceased to be members, knowing that in doing so the CIC would perhaps be unable to keep up it's loan repayments and the shares would have to go back on the market.

I can't ever imagine a scenario where the fans would want to deliberately implode the club ?

[St. Sid]

Well I am under the impression that once the debts are paid off then the members will have the chance to vote on what goes back into the club. I don't have any insider information as to why a forecast hasn't been presented. It is possibly because 10000hrs actually DO want it to be run by the fans and therefore they can't predict how any future voting will go regarding fund distribution. If they start dictating where all the money goes then they will be met with criticism for not allowing a democracy to decide.

An unfortunate scenario which I don't deny. However, I don't know if Richard has attempted anything as ambitious as this in the past and he will probably admit that he could/would/should have approached some things differently in hindsight. It certainly isn't enough for me to denounce the whole idea. So you have to do a little bit of work to find out some of the answers; maybe even contact the guy directly. It's hardly the end of the world. I'm still willing to give it a go.

What's the worst that could happen?

This is the type of post that causes me concern.....a lot of speculation with a positive spin, and a similar post can equally be made by the likes of somner9 with just as much speculation only with a negative spin. The epitomy of that sort of behavious has to be GLS and his SRTB band of merry men - who will rob from the rich and steal from the poor on the bahalf of the rank and file....aye right!

The last sentence is the crucial one - "What is the worst that could happen?" The problen we have at the moment is that no one knows, because it is brutally clear that no cnut actually understands what is actually happening.

We have see the CIC structure change significantly for its original format. It was the original format that was pitched to the bus groups, to SMiSA, to the general public meetings. That was when we had information being bombarded at us about how this was all going to hang together under the banner of it's very complicated, but it will all become clear later. The opposite has happened. The structure has changed, the groups have been sidelined. At the moment only 10000 Hours and perhaps GLS actually know what they are doing and how this is going to work. That is not a healthy position for the general members group to find itself in. I am guessing that the previous community members might not be in any better position.

We also keep hearing about how this is the only bid that delivers fan ownership - from what I can see the fan ownership is limited to us paying for the f'k'n thing. This would also suggest that GLS previous bids were for him to be a traditional owner of the club with no fan involvement. That hardly instills confidence that his desire to be a director of SMFC is about representing the fans interests. This appears to be getting excused away as him being the representative of the shareholders....when did the shareholders vote on / agree to this?

The CIC has lost its community credentials for me and is now nothing more than a commercial pig in lipstick that the fans are going to pay for.

Where are the interim BoD? Why aren't they presenting this to the people they expect for fund their retirement fund / ongoing power at the club? WHy are we being left with guesses from fellow supporters putting their neck on the line when they are being provided with no information to support their position.

We need absolute clarity, and it needs to come documented, not in a Q&A session that only tests REA's presentation and objection handling skills. Give us written clarity so we can discuss its merits / risks properly. The "it's too complicated" bollox won't cut it.

[TsuMirren]

I find it difficult to understand why some St.Mirren fans could be so opposed to the club being controlled by a community interest company that is in turn owned equally by it's members - the St.Mirren supporters.

The owners of that community interest company will be able to define the constitution of the organisation themselves. The current document is a working draft and is miles away from being ratified.

The members of 10000Hours will have five months to sort out all the details of the constitution and to offer to stand for election to serve on either the 10000Hours board or the Football Club board.

In the meantime an interim board including at least one current director, one former director and one former club player and manager will be formed and continue to run the football club whilst all the intricate details of the 10000Hours constitution are established.

Those wailing about not the fans not being involved are putting the boot into the ONLY model currently on offer where the fans WILL be involved.

Firstly, we've had two years to discuss the constitution and there still appears to be very little about fan involvement.

Secondly, evidence is already there of a fans initiative that had very poor definition of the involvement and subsequent slashing of membership numbers.

Thirdly, you can't just expect people to sign up to "join, it'll be fine".

Fourthly, there's been no communication about what the process will be going forward or how 10000 Hours would like it to work.

Again, obviously, there is a lot of drivel in this thread recently. It'd be very dangerous to ignore the good discussion though and not every comment about lack of clear evidence of fan involvement is putting the boot in.

Edited May 29, 2012 by TsuMirren

[Guest somner9]

This is the type of post that causes me concern.....a lot of speculation with a positive spin, and a similar post can equally be made by the likes of somner9 with just as much speculation only with a negative spin. The epitomy of that sort of behavious has to be GLS and his SRTB band of merry men - who will rob from the rich and steal from the poor on the bahalf of the rank and file....aye right!

The last sentence is the crucial one - "What is the worst that could happen?" The problen we have at the moment is that no one knows, because it is brutally clear that no cnut actually understands what is actually happening.

We have see the CIC structure change significantly for its original format. It was the original format that was pitched to the bus groups, to SMiSA, to the general public meetings. That was when we had information being bombarded at us about how this was all going to hang together under the banner of it's very complicated, but it will all become clear later. The opposite has happened. The structure has changed, the groups have been sidelined. At the moment only 10000 Hours and perhaps GLS actually know what they are doing and how this is going to work. That is not a healthy position for the general members group to find itself in. I am guessing that the previous community members might not be in any better position.

We also keep hearing about how this is the only bid that delivers fan ownership - from what I can see the fan ownership is limited to us paying for the f'k'n thing. This would also suggest that GLS previous bids were for him to be a traditional owner of the club with no fan involvement. That hardly instills confidence that his desire to be a director of SMFC is about representing the fans interests. This appears to be getting excused away as him being the representative of the shareholders....when did the shareholders vote on / agree to this?

The CIC has lost its community credentials for me and is now nothing more than a commercial pig in lipstick that the fans are going to pay for.

Where are the interim BoD? Why aren't they presenting this to the people they expect for fund their retirement fund / ongoing power at the club? WHy are we being left with guesses from fellow supporters putting their neck on the line when they are being provided with no information to support their position.

We need absolute clarity, and it needs to come documented, not in a Q&A session that only tests REA's presentation and objection handling skills. Give us written clarity so we can discuss its merits / risks properly. The "it's too complicated" bollox won't cut it.

Ha ha you're really worried that all and sundry have found you out Sid. See if like good old Doug here you'd actually stuck to your guns and continued to challenge the threadbare proposals put forward, changed, abandoned, changed, abandoned and changed again by 10000 hours then you might have emerged with a hint of credibility,

Sadly with a performance level comparable to 10000 (now you see us, now you don't) hours your credibility is in the Gary Glitter.

It will all be over soon than we can concentrate on the future of SMFC not the money go round cic.

Edited May 29, 2012 by somner9

[St. Sid]

Ha ha you're really worried that all and sundry have found you out Sid. See if like good old Doug here you'd actually stuck to your guns and continued to challenge the threadbare proposals put forward, changed, abandoned, changed, abandoned and changed again by 10000 hours then you might have emerged with a hint of credibility,

Sadly with a performance level comparable to 10000 (now you see us, now you don't) hours your credibility is in the Gary Glitter.

It will all be over soon than we can concentrate on the future of SMFC not the money go round cic. There's Sid below doing what he does best

You really are a diddy somner9. The CIC is far from dead. You are now attacking the people that are trying to help you and not for the first time. What we now need to avoid is the current tactic of the CIC trying to be pushed over the line as is. SMiSA are bang on in their concerns about the constitution - if you remember I was the first person to start pushing in public about getting the draft constitution reviewed. You offered your support to me for that by PM at the time.

As with all things it is never a simple case of good and evil.....the truth always lies somewhere in the middle, and as always that applioes in this instance too. The overall intentions of fan ownership are good; however the necessary evil of commercilly minded take as much as you can get whilst offering as little as you have to is also in the mix. We are now at the negotiation stage with 10000 Hours and as SMiSA have now revealed GLS.

Essentially 10000 Hours want enough fan suport to allow them to fund their venture. In return they will paly a game of offering as little to the fans as they can get away with in return. This is where SMiSA and the fans negotiate proper fan ownership. If it is not offered then the CIC collapses. We are a long way away from that happening as yet.

Rather than posting your usual shite, it is not time for you to stand down and let the adults argue what is best for the fans of SMFC.

[Guest somner9]

You really are a diddy somner9. The CIC is far from dead. You are now attacking the people that are trying to help you and not for the first time. What we now need to avoid is the current tactic of the CIC trying to be pushed over the line as is. SMiSA are bang on in their concerns about the constitution - if you remember I was the first person to start pushing in public about getting the draft constitution reviewed. You offered your support to me for that by PM at the time.

As with all things it is never a simple case of good and evil.....the truth always lies somewhere in the middle, and as always that applioes in this instance too. The overall intentions of fan ownership are good; however the necessary evil of commercilly minded take as much as you can get whilst offering as little as you have to is also in the mix. We are now at the negotiation stage with 10000 Hours and as SMiSA have now revealed GLS.

Essentially 10000 Hours want enough fan suport to allow them to fund their venture. In return they will paly a game of offering as little to the fans as they can get away with in return. This is where SMiSA and the fans negotiate proper fan ownership. If it is not offered then the CIC collapses. We are a long way away from that happening as yet.

Rather than posting your usual shite, it is not time for you to stand down and let the adults argue what is best for the fans of SMFC.

had a good old chuckle at the last line, If it weren't for the Smisa's and Somner9's of this world then an appalling deal with no real fan ownership would have already been done. Thanks for never getting back on that PM BTW.

If the adults have been doing the proposing so far, then lord help us when the kids takeover.

Re-arrange these words Ship, Rats, Sinking, From

[St. Sid]

had a good old chuckle at the last line, If it weren't for the Smisa's and Somner9's of this world then an appalling deal with no real fan ownership would have already been done. Thanks for never getting back on that PM BTW.

If the adults have been doing the proposing so far, then lord help us when the kids takeover.

Re-arrange these words Ship, Rats, Sinking, From

Joost you sit back and trust yer auld da.

[div]

I'm not sure why people make statements like

Essentially 10000 Hours want enough fan suport to allow them to fund their venture. In return they will paly a game of offering as little to the fans as they can get away with in return.

10000Hours IS the fans. If the organisation came into being right now it would have 683 members. The vast majority of those members are straight up St.Mirren supporters who want to ensure the club remains in the hands of it's own.

It's ironic that the people shouting the loudest about lack of fan empowerment are the ones who will be sitting on the outside whilst the 10000Hours members take over the ownership of the majority holding of the football club. Noses cut off, faces spited.

[Guest somner9]

I'm not sure why people make statements like

10000Hours IS the fans. If the organisation came into being right now it would have 683 members. The vast majority of those members are straight up St.Mirren supporters who want to ensure the club remains in the hands of it's own.

It's ironic that the people shouting the loudest about lack of fan empowerment are the ones who will be sitting on the outside whilst the 10000Hours members take over the ownership of the majority holding of the football club. Noses cut off, faces spited.

Ach Div you should've added "Pigs might fly" at the end. seriously though once we got to this version and the amount of pledgers converting to DD folk halved its obvious it's not being fancied?

Still if you storm to power Div give us a wave as we pass by the "10000 Hours JD Sports,SRTB Arena,"

[St. Sid]

I'm not sure why people make statements like

10000Hours IS the fans. If the organisation came into being right now it would have 683 members. The vast majority of those members are straight up St.Mirren supporters who want to ensure the club remains in the hands of it's own.

It's ironic that the people shouting the loudest about lack of fan empowerment are the ones who will be sitting on the outside whilst the 10000Hours members take over the ownership of the majority holding of the football club. Noses cut off, faces spited.

That's not a very compelling argument for the CIC Div.......are you saying membership is going to be closed off after the deadline? The plot thinkens.

[BoWSaint]

That's not a very compelling argument for the CIC Div.......are you saying membership is going to be closed off after the deadline? The plot thinkens.

No, anyone can join if and when the deal is done..........but it will make me a better fan than you because I signed up and supported them earlier........................

[div]

That's not a very compelling argument for the CIC Div.......are you saying membership is going to be closed off after the deadline? The plot thinkens.

Not at all. Anyone can join at any time, but of course you run the real risk of all the sausage rolls all having been eaten by then.

[div]

Does that mean that there is a minority of bent-over St Mirren supporters?

There are quite a few who must be in a hell of a state having tied themselves in knots over whether they support this or not !

[Guest somner9]

There are quite a few who must be in a hell of a state having tied themselves in knots over whether they support this or not !

Unlike Sid I was never confused!

[div]

Unlike Sid I was never confused!

Nope, I will give you that, you have been 100% consistent. Sid has more faces than the town hall clock.

[St. Sid]

No, anyone can join if and when the deal is done..........but it will make me a better fan than you because I signed up and supported them earlier........................

Then you'll be sorely disappointed as I was one of the first to sign up.

So despite the great and the good St Sid requesting additional information and clarification on how the CIC will work, not to mention the St Mirren Independent Suppotrers Association....none of the CIC LOYAL can provide any insight beyond that they are don;t like being challenged on the pish poor information being supplied.

Some CIC-supporters have taken the trouble to take a look at the constitution and respect to them for that....Robo, Bud77....however we appear to be back to SNP style tactics. This isn't a popularity contest or a test of loyalty ---- loyalty to whom exactly? This is about getting all the information required to ensure that the benefits for fans and the club outweigh the risks involved. At the moment SMiSA doesn't even have that information and they have clearly had more engagement than the rank and file fans.

I still don't see why 10000 Hours cannot produce a document that explains how the CIC & SMFC will actually work. I am bemused as to why asking for that is getting such a defensive response from the CIC Loyal. This should be a tee'd up opportunity for 10000 Hours to knock it out of the park and make a big push for more fans.

I was quite happy to take the flak from dafties like bluto when 10000 Hours had the right to be heard....more than happy to take the flak from dafties from 10000 Hours to ensure that SMiSA and fans wanting more information get heard too. The only thing that is important is that both sides are heard without dafties like somner9 spoiling the debate with nonsense.

At the moment it is a lot of questions being asked and no response. 10000 Hours needs to regroup and raise its game. Just as I offered help to dafties like somner9 that was never accepted I will offer the same courtesy to 10000 Hours. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle and that is where you will find me. Happy to help, but if its a loyal patsy your looking for....look elsewhere.

[Guest somner9]

Then you'll be sorely disappointed as I was one of the first to sign up.

So despite the great and the good St Sid requesting additional information and clarification on how the CIC will work, not to mention the St Mirren Independent Suppotrers Association....none of the CIC LOYAL can provide any insight beyond that they are don;t like being challenged on the pish poor information being supplied.

Some CIC-supporters have taken the trouble to take a look at the constitution and respect to them for that....Robo, Bud77....however we appear to be back to SNP style tactics. This isn't a popularity contest or a test of loyalty ---- loyalty to whom exactly? This is about getting all the information required to ensure that the benefits for fans and the club outweigh the risks involved. At the moment SMiSA doesn't even have that information and they have clearly had more engagement than the rank and file fans.

I still don't see why 10000 Hours cannot produce a document that explains how the CIC & SMFC will actually work. I am bemused as to why asking for that is getting such a defensive response from the CIC Loyal. This should be a tee'd up opportunity for 10000 Hours to knock it out of the park and make a big push for more fans.

I was quite happy to take the flak from dafties like bluto when 10000 Hours had the right to be heard....more than happy to take the flak from dafties from 10000 Hours to ensure that SMiSA and fans wanting more information get heard too. The only thing that is important is that both sides are heard without dafties like somner9 spoiling the debate with nonsense.

At the moment it is a lot of questions being asked and no response. 10000 Hours needs to regroup and raise its game. Just as I offered help to dafties like somner9 that was never accepted I will offer the same courtesy to 10000 Hours. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle and that is where you will find me. Happy to help, but if its a loyal patsy your looking for....look elsewhere.

truth sid? FFS thats a stoater! You backed the wrang dug, nae use throwing a pie supper hoping it'll get you a result

[glenburn ed]

What have you been offered div you seem to be trying to sell this scheme more than your pal Mr Atkinson