The Day Fan Ownership Died!

[St. Sid]

For anyone swithering, if they don't get enough backing by the deadline then we will never know if it would have been a good thing or a bad thing and we will just be left with the speculation that we have now. I have submitted my DD mandate because I genuinely believe that they trying are to do something "good" for the club, despite some rough edges here and there.

I believe that I will get to vote on the CICs stance on ALL decisions that will go to an SMFC boardroom vote.

I believe that there will be at LEAST an AGM that will allow decisions to be made by me and all the other members i.e. not just one vote every 3 years and the board make the rest of the decisions without consulting me.

I believe that if I want, I can nominate myself to join the CIC board and if you all vote for me then I WILL be on the board so fan representation is entirely realistic.

If it turns out I am wrong about this or it doesn't pan out how I want then I will have invested a mere tenner a month and I will cancel my DD and continue my life.

Basically I think there is enough for me to give the CIC a chance and if it fails I will always be wondering if we have just passed up a wonderful opportunity for our club.

Fair enough...however....belief needs to be based on something and at the moment there is nothing concrete in terms of the d/m processes. You talk about just cancelling your direct debit - once the CIC has the 52% shareholding we will have to pay the tenner a month to facilitate the debt. We could be moving from an "if we fancy it" scenario to a genuine "or else" scenario. The CIC model is dependent entirely on rank and file supporters paying off the debt others are signing us up to in a power grab at SMFC. In all of this there is no real detail on the powers that the supporters will actually get in return.

Getting to pick the colour of the away strip is not fan power, that is just good customer service and a sensible strategy to sell more strips. Genuine fan power is having decision making powers on matters like the SPL vote and ticket pricing for disabled fans.

My previous view was that we were heading towards something that was about transparency, about community, about a fan-centric club. Deals appear to be being done that betray those values.

Initially there were three distinct groups. The structure was geared towards each group being represented at the club. It was supposed to have been replaced by OMOV. However, we are already seeing interim places on SMFC's BoD being allocated based on negotiations. We are seeing a stronger focus on commercials rather than community. We are seeing fans group excluded from the communications and the deals are being done behind closed doors and announced in press releases once decisions are made.

For me there needs to be a compelling reason to invest in the CIC. In the space of a month I have gone from being fairly comfortable about investing £3,000.00 for a 87 club membership...to being unsure about whether it is even wise to invest £10-a-month.

The majority of us want fan ownership, fan empowerment, fan representation, a community club, etc......I have a gut feel that this has now been compromised. I will be delighted if it is demonstrated that this is not the case. What I am not prepared to sign up to is something that will quickly be a massive disappointment to fans, see direct debits cancelled, leaving us with not enough CIC income to facilitate the debt.

There are still a number of unknowns in relation to the CIC - how it will actually function, the levels of monthly income required to maintian / repay the debt, what other activities the CIC can engage in using income generated from fans - the additional risk associated with that, amongst others.

The fans have rightly put 10000 Hourse in a position to progress; however the blind faith needs to be replaced by a full review of how the CIC will function and what risks are involved in it. Some might think that is being anti-CIC...I actually believe that is sensible pro-CIC behaviour.

10000 Hours have clearly been working aggressively on the commercial side of the CIC of late and also in negotiating the involvement of GLS and his own merry band of SRTBs. The assumption appears to have been that all St Mirren fans would fall into place with the announcement that GLS is involved.

I have been to all of the public meetings - one of my biggest concerns has been the absence of people who I would have expected to be there - home and away supporters that bleed black and white. For me 10000 Hours needs to reach out to all fans and really push this home with clear concise information about how this will work, and what the risks are. No marketing bollox, no hiding behind complexity, no staged objection handling.....just clear info. Better 3,000 fans at a fiver, than 600 fans at whatever they can afford over and above a tenner + special deals for bigger investors.

[Stuart Dickson]

For anyone swithering, if they don't get enough backing by the deadline then we will never know if it would have been a good thing or a bad thing and we will just be left with the speculation that we have now. I have submitted my DD mandate because I genuinely believe that they trying are to do something "good" for the club, despite some rough edges here and there.

I believe that I will get to vote on the CICs stance on ALL decisions that will go to an SMFC boardroom vote.

I believe that there will be at LEAST an AGM that will allow decisions to be made by me and all the other members i.e. not just one vote every 3 years and the board make the rest of the decisions without consulting me.

I believe that if I want, I can nominate myself to join the CIC board and if you all vote for me then I WILL be on the board so fan representation is entirely realistic.

If it turns out I am wrong about this or it doesn't pan out how I want then I will have invested a mere tenner a month and I will cancel my DD and continue my life.

Basically I think there is enough for me to give the CIC a chance and if it fails I will always be wondering if we have just passed up a wonderful opportunity for our club.

Yeah this is pretty much my take on it.

I e-mailed Richard Atkinson earlier in the week to ask about the situation for community groups. He replied to me with 24 hours and said nothing had changed. What was a good idea then is still a good idea now. Now I'm prepared to take him on his word especially since, as you've said, we can cancel if it doesn't transpire the way we imagine it would.

[reborn saint]

Fair enough...however....belief needs to be based on something and at the moment there is nothing concrete in terms of the d/m processes. You talk about just cancelling your direct debit - once the CIC has the 52% shareholding we will have to pay the tenner a month to facilitate the debt. We could be moving from an "if we fancy it" scenario to a genuine "or else" scenario. The CIC model is dependent entirely on rank and file supporters paying off the debt others are signing us up to in a power grab at SMFC. In all of this there is no real detail on the powers that the supporters will actually get in return.

Getting to pick the colour of the away strip is not fan power, that is just good customer service and a sensible strategy to sell more strips. Genuine fan power is having decision making powers on matters like the SPL vote and ticket pricing for disabled fans.

My previous view was that we were heading towards something that was about transparency, about community, about a fan-centric club. Deals appear to be being done that betray those values.

Initially there were three distinct groups. The structure was geared towards each group being represented at the club. It was supposed to have been replaced by OMOV. However, we are already seeing interim places on SMFC's BoD being allocated based on negotiations. We are seeing a stronger focus on commercials rather than community. We are seeing fans group excluded from the communications and the deals are being done behind closed doors and announced in press releases once decisions are made.

For me there needs to be a compelling reason to invest in the CIC. In the space of a month I have gone from being fairly comfortable about investing £3,000.00 for a 87 club membership...to being unsure about whether it is even wise to invest £10-a-month.

The majority of us want fan ownership, fan empowerment, fan representation, a community club, etc......I have a gut feel that this has now been compromised. I will be delighted if it is demonstrated that this is not the case. What I am not prepared to sign up to is something that will quickly be a massive disappointment to fans, see direct debits cancelled, leaving us with not enough CIC income to facilitate the debt.

There are still a number of unknowns in relation to the CIC - how it will actually function, the levels of monthly income required to maintian / repay the debt, what other activities the CIC can engage in using income generated from fans - the additional risk associated with that, amongst others.

The fans have rightly put 10000 Hourse in a position to progress; however the blind faith needs to be replaced by a full review of how the CIC will function and what risks are involved in it. Some might think that is being anti-CIC...I actually believe that is sensible pro-CIC behaviour.

10000 Hours have clearly been working aggressively on the commercial side of the CIC of late and also in negotiating the involvement of GLS and his own merry band of SRTBs. The assumption appears to have been that all St Mirren fans would fall into place with the announcement that GLS is involved.

I have been to all of the public meetings - one of my biggest concerns has been the absence of people who I would have expected to be there - home and away supporters that bleed black and white. For me 10000 Hours needs to reach out to all fans and really push this home with clear concise information about how this will work, and what the risks are. No marketing bollox, no hiding behind complexity, no staged objection handling.....just clear info. Better 3,000 fans at a fiver, than 600 fans at whatever they can afford over and above a tenner + special deals for bigger investors.

phewe!......Was that a book draft??:....glad you agree ....REA has to go now and let someone.....who knows who? (you Sid?....Div??) to try for a fan buyout.....SG £2 million fantasy will have to go. The club is worth £0 for anyone who wants to make it successful. Me ,you, KMcG or Craig Whyte could make more than £2M out the club ......before it died. ....My faith is with the BOD and long may they continue.

[Stuart Dickson]

Fair enough...however....belief needs to be based on something and at the moment there is nothing concrete in terms of the d/m processes. You talk about just cancelling your direct debit - once the CIC has the 52% shareholding we will have to pay the tenner a month to facilitate the debt. We could be moving from an "if we fancy it" scenario to a genuine "or else" scenario. The CIC model is dependent entirely on rank and file supporters paying off the debt others are signing us up to in a power grab at SMFC. In all of this there is no real detail on the powers that the supporters will actually get in return.

Getting to pick the colour of the away strip is not fan power, that is just good customer service and a sensible strategy to sell more strips. Genuine fan power is having decision making powers on matters like the SPL vote and ticket pricing for disabled fans.

My previous view was that we were heading towards something that was about transparency, about community, about a fan-centric club. Deals appear to be being done that betray those values.

Initially there were three distinct groups. The structure was geared towards each group being represented at the club. It was supposed to have been replaced by OMOV. However, we are already seeing interim places on SMFC's BoD being allocated based on negotiations. We are seeing a stronger focus on commercials rather than community. We are seeing fans group excluded from the communications and the deals are being done behind closed doors and announced in press releases once decisions are made.

For me there needs to be a compelling reason to invest in the CIC. In the space of a month I have gone from being fairly comfortable about investing £3,000.00 for a 87 club membership...to being unsure about whether it is even wise to invest £10-a-month.

The majority of us want fan ownership, fan empowerment, fan representation, a community club, etc......I have a gut feel that this has now been compromised. I will be delighted if it is demonstrated that this is not the case. What I am not prepared to sign up to is something that will quickly be a massive disappointment to fans, see direct debits cancelled, leaving us with not enough CIC income to facilitate the debt.

There are still a number of unknowns in relation to the CIC - how it will actually function, the levels of monthly income required to maintian / repay the debt, what other activities the CIC can engage in using income generated from fans - the additional risk associated with that, amongst others.

The fans have rightly put 10000 Hourse in a position to progress; however the blind faith needs to be replaced by a full review of how the CIC will function and what risks are involved in it. Some might think that is being anti-CIC...I actually believe that is sensible pro-CIC behaviour.

10000 Hours have clearly been working aggressively on the commercial side of the CIC of late and also in negotiating the involvement of GLS and his own merry band of SRTBs. The assumption appears to have been that all St Mirren fans would fall into place with the announcement that GLS is involved.

I have been to all of the public meetings - one of my biggest concerns has been the absence of people who I would have expected to be there - home and away supporters that bleed black and white. For me 10000 Hours needs to reach out to all fans and really push this home with clear concise information about how this will work, and what the risks are. No marketing bollox, no hiding behind complexity, no staged objection handling.....just clear info. Better 3,000 fans at a fiver, than 600 fans at whatever they can afford over and above a tenner + special deals for bigger investors.

Sid, like you I'd like to see more information of what is initially being put in place, but the bottom line is that as with any membership organisation fans will have their opportunity to amend constitutions at every AGM. Because of that I'm prepared to show a bit of faith and just ride with it. If it means I waste a couple of hundred pounds over the next few years - so be it. The wife wasted more than that at Homebase yesterday!

One problem I do see though it this term SRTB. I don't like it as I think the CIC would be setting the bar far too low. Surely 10000hours should be looking to recruit those with a bit more refinement than a Greggs pastry addiction.

[ktf]

Fair enough...however....belief needs to be based on something and at the moment there is nothing concrete in terms of the d/m processes. You talk about just cancelling your direct debit - once the CIC has the 52% shareholding we will have to pay the tenner a month to facilitate the debt. We could be moving from an "if we fancy it" scenario to a genuine "or else" scenario. The CIC model is dependent entirely on rank and file supporters paying off the debt others are signing us up to in a power grab at SMFC. In all of this there is no real detail on the powers that the supporters will actually get in return.

Getting to pick the colour of the away strip is not fan power, that is just good customer service and a sensible strategy to sell more strips. Genuine fan power is having decision making powers on matters like the SPL vote and ticket pricing for disabled fans.

My previous view was that we were heading towards something that was about transparency, about community, about a fan-centric club. Deals appear to be being done that betray those values.

Initially there were three distinct groups. The structure was geared towards each group being represented at the club. It was supposed to have been replaced by OMOV. However, we are already seeing interim places on SMFC's BoD being allocated based on negotiations. We are seeing a stronger focus on commercials rather than community. We are seeing fans group excluded from the communications and the deals are being done behind closed doors and announced in press releases once decisions are made.

For me there needs to be a compelling reason to invest in the CIC. In the space of a month I have gone from being fairly comfortable about investing £3,000.00 for a 87 club membership...to being unsure about whether it is even wise to invest £10-a-month.

The majority of us want fan ownership, fan empowerment, fan representation, a community club, etc......I have a gut feel that this has now been compromised. I will be delighted if it is demonstrated that this is not the case. What I am not prepared to sign up to is something that will quickly be a massive disappointment to fans, see direct debits cancelled, leaving us with not enough CIC income to facilitate the debt.

There are still a number of unknowns in relation to the CIC - how it will actually function, the levels of monthly income required to maintian / repay the debt, what other activities the CIC can engage in using income generated from fans - the additional risk associated with that, amongst others.

The fans have rightly put 10000 Hourse in a position to progress; however the blind faith needs to be replaced by a full review of how the CIC will function and what risks are involved in it. Some might think that is being anti-CIC...I actually believe that is sensible pro-CIC behaviour.

10000 Hours have clearly been working aggressively on the commercial side of the CIC of late and also in negotiating the involvement of GLS and his own merry band of SRTBs. The assumption appears to have been that all St Mirren fans would fall into place with the announcement that GLS is involved.

I have been to all of the public meetings - one of my biggest concerns has been the absence of people who I would have expected to be there - home and away supporters that bleed black and white. For me 10000 Hours needs to reach out to all fans and really push this home with clear concise information about how this will work, and what the risks are. No marketing bollox, no hiding behind complexity, no staged objection handling.....just clear info. Better 3,000 fans at a fiver, than 600 fans at whatever they can afford over and above a tenner + special deals for bigger investors.

As always, long-winded but some good points. It's no secret that I was a big fan of mk1 CiC, as I had hoped to be involved at a community level with one, or maybe even two, community groups that I am involved with. For me mk2 was a step away from the community centred nature of 10000Hrs and there were questions as to the role that community members could play at that stage - however I let it go, assuming that once we were up and running it would all iron itself out and things would become clear. Now, with mk3, it seems we have taken a farther step from the genuine community buyout that we had all hoped for...

There are a few things to blame:

1. The EssEnnPee Cooncilors in Cotton St

2. Poor Communicatiok from 10000Hrs

3. Poor fan involvement from those who did know and were up for it - this is a fan/community buyout and should have been fan led. With REA being so silent, fans with various skills could/should have stepped up.

Please not, Somner9, Animal, Yul etc are not listed here cos they have have a negligible impact on the success or otherwise of 10000Hrs, except to add site traffic to B&W Army, giving Div more money and allowing him to invest in a 87 Club membership...!

The question is, where do we go from here? I tend to agree with BoW Saint - the correct thing to do us to sign up, be a part and shape the thing from the inside. The 77 & 87 Club members won't have more say than the "rank and file" members, who will outnumber them maybe 100x. So, with a good elected board, the shape would be able to be defined by the "genuine" fans. It may take a year or so, but it can happen and , I think, will happen. Somner is into plumbs if he thinks 10000Hrs is dead. It has more life now than it ever did and it will own the 52%! The simple question is, are you going to choose to be involved to make it what it should be, or are you going to cry from the sidelines, while others are part of shaping the future of St Mirren and making history?

Edited May 27, 2012 by ktf

[reborn saint]

Sid, like you I'd like to see more information of what is initially being put in place, but the bottom line is that as with any membership organisation fans will have their opportunity to amend constitutions at every AGM. Because of that I'm prepared to show a bit of faith and just ride with it. If it means I waste a couple of hundred pounds over the next few years - so be it. The wife wasted more than that at Homebase yesterday!

One problem I do see though it this term SRTB. I don't like it as I think the CIC would be setting the bar far too low. Surely 10000hours should be looking to recruit those with a bit more refinement than a Greggs pastry addiction.

Can we get rid of REA now and start a forum for fan ownership. He has to go NOW! as 3 yrs is too long. He is a waste of space and time so we need to move forward with a new plan with new people. Move him out and surely someone can engage the support in a way he could never do. BWA should be the start if SG understands his shares are worth next to nothing.

I

[ktf]

Can we get rid of REA now and start a forum for fan ownership. He has to go NOW! as 3 yrs is too long. He is a waste of space and time so we need to move forward with a new plan with new people. Move him out and surely someone can engage the support in a way he could never do. BWA should be the start if SG understands his shares are worth next to nothing.

I

FFS

Edited May 27, 2012 by ktf

[reborn saint]

FFS

You are a fool if you think this is gonna happen......It's a dead duck and I will only reply to you when it's over. Until then take care my friend.

[Stuart Dickson]

Can we get rid of REA now and start a forum for fan ownership. He has to go NOW! as 3 yrs is too long. He is a waste of space and time so we need to move forward with a new plan with new people. Move him out and surely someone can engage the support in a way he could never do. BWA should be the start if SG understands his shares are worth next to nothing.

I

Aye you could get rid of REA if you want but then you'll have to start the whole process again from scratch. You'll need to form a new company. Create a new business plan. Recruit a team of lawyers. You'll need to resubmit all the funding applications and wait while they decide whether you are a fit and proper person to run a Community Interest Company. You'll then need to generate a constitution, organise branding, a website, sort out your own PR and you'll need to do all of this whilst not getting paid by the CIC despite the fact you're going to have to spend hours and hours and hours in meetings with funders, lawyers, politicians, corporate partners, community partners and supporter groups - probably meaning your own work attendance and earnings will suffer. Then you are going to have to visit all the forums to deal with Sid's rants, valid or not, and hope that your reputation can stand up to Somners character assassinations which will more often than not be completely baseless, factless, and when someone/anyone remotely attached to the bid calls him out on it he'll whine and squeal like a little baby and instead of telling you who it was so you can deal with it, he'll instead start posting Dad's Army clips.

Then no doubt once you've got the whole thing to the brink of just about being able to work you're going to have to put up with the head banging nonsense from faceless internet aliases who want to bring down the whole bid cause you didn't offer them a free sausage roll.

I look forward to seeing the start of your campaign Reborn - who knows I might even back it.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Stuart Dickson

[ktf]

You are a fool if you think this is gonna happen......It's a dead duck and I will only reply to you when it's over. Until then take care my friend.

Ok mate. You go for it - get your own fan buyout up and running. You make the links with the social funders and the community groups and the local businesses and the existing shareholders and the BoD an you get 1500 fans on board and get the constitution drawn up and all the admin in place and set up a company/charity/scio/CiC to facilitate it. You pay the outlay, do all the PR, get these fans to trust you and be willing to invest. Have all the answers to the likes of Sid and Somner. Get solicitors etc in board to make sure everything is above board and no-one is pumping you from behind. That's just off the top of my head.

And you better have it done in about 2-4 weeks cos if 10000Hrs fails, A N Other WILL own our club, we'll have no say and there will be nothing to invest in it or protect it. If what I've read is true...

[glenburn ed]

Ok mate. You go for it - get your own fan buyout up and running. You make the links with the social funders and the community groups and the local businesses and the existing shareholders and the BoD an you get 1500 fans on board and get the constitution drawn up and all the admin in place and set up a company/charity/scio/CiC to facilitate it. You pay the outlay, do all the PR, get these fans to trust you and be willing to invest. Have all the answers to the likes of Sid and Somner. Get solicitors etc in board to make sure everything is above board and no-one is pumping you from behind. That's just off the top of my head.

And you better have it done in about 2-4 weeks cos if 10000Hrs fails, A N Other WILL own our club, we'll have no say and there will be nothing to invest in it or protect it. If what I've read is true...

[Vambo57]

Some communication on this thread from REA and/or GLS to alay some understandable concerns over fan representation NEEDS to be posted or I see trouble ahead.

Is it too much to ask?

I am also very surprised the mass of Saints support outside the online community have not had better communications about joining fellow fans in the co-op. e.g. a wee leaflet in the ST renewal letter.

I have no doubt that if the co-op gets up and running, the comms will improve, but right now we need answers.

[glenburn ed]

Your money will only buy someone else your football team you will have No say whatever in the future of ST.mirren the big money man is much to clever for that. Don't buy the scare stories they are getting desperate now, the deadline was put on by the sellers because even they are fed up with the whole carry on

[reborn saint]

Some communication on this thread from REA and/or GLS to alay some understandable concerns over fan representation NEEDS to be posted or I see trouble ahead.

Is it too much to ask?

I am also very surprised the mass of Saints support outside the online community have not had better communications about joining fellow fans in the co-op. e.g. a wee leaflet in the ST renewal letter.

I have no doubt that if the co-op gets up and running, the comms will improve, but right now we need answers.

Yes it is ......Game over for Richard.....Never engaged the fans ...poor show ......please go......3yrs of failure and a meeting to come. ......Wonder who will attend??

[St. Sid]

The 77 & 87 Club members won't have more say than the "rank and file" members, who will outnumber them maybe 100x. So, with a good elected board, the shape would be able to be defined by the "genuine" fans.

The 1877 club members especially will have more influence than rank and file members. Straight off the bat we have seen one of them negotiate their way into an interim BoD position. What else will be negotiated with each £25K member as 10000 Hours get more and more desparate to reach their goal. Meanwhile the "rank and file" members get told by a few hand picked fans to keep the faith - it will all be okay after we have your money coming out of the bank when you will be committed to maintaining the payments of the CIC defaults on its payments and we are then right in the shitter.

The CIC is far from dead and REA is still the best person to lead it. The "rank and file" fans just need to be provided with the fine detail that will allow us to commit 100% to the CIC. The message from "in the know" fans seems to be that it will be able to happen whether the "rank and file" support want it to or not. If that's the case then why should "rank and file" fans commit their money to boost a retirement fund for BoD members? As much as I appreciate what the BoD have done for the club...they have plenty of cash of their own compared to most fans. That £10-a-month could be going into our own pension pots.

The community side has dropped, fan influence has been traded away, the debt implications have increased....where is the compelling argument for ran and file fans to sign up to this. We are now told that we should do it to keep the club out of someone elses hands...by placing into the hands of someone that doesn't value the club enough to pay for it with their own money.

If this is genuinely about inclusiveness, about the community..then where is the role for the existing St Mirren community....there are a number of supporters groups...this should be a no-brainer for SMiSA....surely the supporters groups that run buses to away games should be right at the core of this? If they aren't why not?

It is not about whether you are for the CIC or against it. It is about taking the time to understand what we are actually getting the club into and ensuring we are doing the right thing for the club. By all means keep an open mind; however we need to take a close look at what is being proposed. At the moment we are unable to do that as it is all smoke and mirrors.

[ktf]

The 1877 club members especially will have more influence than rank and file members. Straight off the bat we have seen one of them negotiate their way into an interim BoD position. What else will be negotiated with each £25K member as 10000 Hours get more and more desparate to reach their goal. Meanwhile the "rank and file" members get told by a few hand picked fans to keep the faith - it will all be okay after we have your money coming out of the bank when you will be committed to maintaining the payments of the CIC defaults on its payments and we are then right in the shitter.

The CIC is far from dead and REA is still the best person to lead it. The "rank and file" fans just need to be provided with the fine detail that will allow us to commit 100% to the CIC. The message from "in the know" fans seems to be that it will be able to happen whether the "rank and file" support want it to or not. If that's the case then why should "rank and file" fans commit their money to boost a retirement fund for BoD members? As much as I appreciate what the BoD have done for the club...they have plenty of cash of their own compared to most fans. That £10-a-month could be going into our own pension pots.

The community side has dropped, fan influence has been traded away, the debt implications have increased....where is the compelling argument for ran and file fans to sign up to this. We are now told that we should do it to keep the club out of someone elses hands...by placing into the hands of someone that doesn't value the club enough to pay for it with their own money.

If this is genuinely about inclusiveness, about the community..then where is the role for the existing St Mirren community....there are a number of supporters groups...this should be a no-brainer for SMiSA....surely the supporters groups that run buses to away games should be right at the core of this? If they aren't why not?

It is not about whether you are for the CIC or against it. It is about taking the time to understand what we are actually getting the club into and ensuring we are doing the right thing for the club. By all means keep an open mind; however we need to take a close look at what is being proposed. At the moment we are unable to do that as it is all smoke and mirrors.

The first paragraph is pure speculation, passed off as fact. Constitutionally there is no chance of this happening, and even if it does, it can be re-written whenever the majority want to by putting forward a motion at an AGM/EGM etc.

The rest of your post is all good and I agree. There is too little detail, too much happening behind closed doors, too little happening with regards the existing St Mirren "community" and the community groups that are required to make up a significant part of the debt repayment in the form of SRoI.

I wouldn't say it will happen if the R&F fans aren't involved - it simply can't - but it now requires significantly less of us due to the third tier that has been added (77 Club). The further away we get from the original model, the more complicated and less effective the thing becomes. I blame the EssEnnPee.

[St. Sid]

The first paragraph is pure speculation, passed off as fact. Constitutionally there is no chance of this happening, and even if it does, it can be re-written whenever the majority want to by putting forward a motion at an AGM/EGM etc.

Is it really speculation....have we not already seen the running of SMFC handed to an 1877 member with two other interim posts still to be named. Where do you think the people coming into those posts will be coming from? No one from SMiSA, no one from the buses....will it be more members of the 10000 Hours team or will it be £25K-a-year members?

Where 10000 Hours and the 1877 commercially minded group think they might lose control of the BoD of the CIC they can simply add their own Director under article 25.6. The BoD can also suspend a Director for up to 4 months based on a simple majority. If the power of the commercially-minded group comes under challenge this is again weighted to their advantage....surely an EGM should be called regarding a matter like this rather than waiting until the next AGM, or worse just suspending them for 4 months.

The only information we have in relation to SMFC is that there would have to be a minimum of one CIC BoD member on it.

That's before we even start looking at the SRTB opportunities in the constitution. Then you look at transparency, which appears to be held within the gift of the Chairperson, rather than being the openness spoken about in the blah, blah.

In my very humble opinion, at this point in time we are not signing up to an organisation that empowers fans or has the level of transparency previously proposed. The feedback on that is that we should just sign up anyway as this can all be agreed later. At what point are you lazy f'k'rs actually going to read the constitution and ensure that we are getting from the CIC what it says on the tin? Other than Robo it looks like no cnut other than maybe SMiSA are doing that. How many of the general members are going to read the constitution and argue our case? Or will they just assume that some fan is doing it on their behalf. I know I had assumed that SMiSA were closely involved in assisting with the constitution - this is now apparently not the case.

The constitution is the contract. I know that most people will never look at a contract. In this case it is absolutely crucial that we do.

Ask yourself the questions....do you want Directors to be able to pay themselves remunerations? That's before you even consider what can happen with expenses....all of that will come from our investment.....any of that sausage roll theivary will extend the length of the debt repayments and delay the realisation of our cash being used to improve on pitch budget.

The constitution is as Director favourable as it possibly could be at the moment. That is the way it has been drafted. If that is Clyde's constitution I wouldn't touch Clyde with a barge pole. Book some time out of you calendar.

Ideally for me I would like to see SMiSA call a public meeting to discuss the constitution. It won't be the hooplah! everybody sign up meeting that we have had from 10000 Hours. It would be a cold, hard look at the CIC chaired independently. SMiSA has a cross mix of pro-CIC / anti-CIC / anycnutknowhattheCICactaullyis members. Rather than get bogged down in opinion, I think it would be a very useful meeting for us to review the CIC constitution and make out own representations on amendments / additions that we would want made to shape the organisation that we want rather than it being fed to us by its writers and their cheerleaders.

[Stuart Dickson]

Sid, I've read the constitution and anyone hand picking me for a St Mirren project would be off their f**king rocker.

So far as I'm concerned the GLS offer makes little difference. Yes it means someone paying £25k has a direct route to the football board but that comes from the stock held in the 48% minority shareholding and there was never a one member one vote on the football board.

Like you I'd like to see more discussion around the technical aspect of this and I'd like a practical example of how the CIC works for community members but I dont think much has changed at all in the running of 10000hours

[ktf]

Sid, I've read the constitution and anyone hand picking me for a St Mirren project would be off their f**king rocker.

So far as I'm concerned the GLS offer makes little difference. Yes it means someone paying £25k has a direct route to the football board but that comes from the stock held in the 48% minority shareholding and there was never a one member one vote on the football board.

Like you I'd like to see more discussion around the technical aspect of this and I'd like a practical example of how the CIC works for community members but I dont think much has changed at all in the running of 10000hours

Can't disagree with any of this. StuDick - reasoned and rational...!

[TsuMirren]

I started reading the draft articles. I only got as far as...

22 Directors discretion to make further rules

23.1 Subject to the articles, the directors may make any rule which they think fit about how they take decisions, and about how such rules are to be recorded or communicated to directors.

...before having a chuckle to myself and closing the document again. I had already stumbled over the casting vote section and wondered if I should just have stopped there. Two key places where there should be reference to member input, but it's missed entirely and there's really no point of going on. The overall power shouldn't sit within the boardroom. There will be times where it undoubtedly has to due to it being a quick decision or something trivial, but there's plenty of scope for the members agreeing how procedures are put together or even being the casting vote on major issues.

I'm certainly not saying dot every "i" or vote on the colour of every pen used in the offices, but a wee pocket of Directors...however they're voted/brought on...controlling their own behaviour and making the final say 100% of the time is not fan ownership.

[St. Sid]

Like you I'd like to see more discussion around the technical aspect of this and I'd like a practical example of how the CIC works for community members but I dont think much has changed at all in the running of 10000hours

I think the goalposts have shifted considerably from CIC1 in terms of how it would function. Previously there were effectively three sets of shooty in goalposts.......one set for general members; one for community members; one for corporate members. There was a verbal agreement made that the general members could have the balance of power on the BoD.

Even going back to CIC1 the detail was still sparse. Very few fans got their head around how it would work. And the bottom line back then was that the 10000 Hours BoD had a veto on decisions made by the CIC Board - this was expressed as something along the lines of "on matters were the business case wasn't proven". We never saw a draft constitution for CIC1 so we never really knew how it would actually work.

[Bud the Baker]

Ah, no worries.

I think you've raised a valid point, though. It would certainly be interesting to have greater clarity as to the where the various revenue streams are directed.

I asked the same question (on the 10000 hours website) about the CIC selling club assets & history to fund it buyout and this was the reply -

http://www.10000hour...ict-of-interest

Disagree.

Non of the 87 Club events you list as events that the club uses to raise any money.

87club exclusive events

87club members and a guest can attend exclusive Q&A sessions with the club manager and first-team squad members.

Invitation to attend the official team pre-season photograph session,meet the new squad and bring your camera to grab some memories!

Invitation to new kit pre-launch events allowing 87club members to own the new strips before anyone else.

As far as the 1877 is concerned. You need to own 1877 shares in the Club not the CIC. It is a re-enfranchising the 48% shareholder so that they benefit from their previous investment in the rescuing of the club, which is something I have spoken about since day 1 of this proposal and presented at the various meeting. The 1877 mearly sets the context in which we will do it. So that those that own Shares and those that which to purchase more can do.

1877 club Benefits that will last 5 years and then be available for a yearly fee

Access to the directors guest lounge on match days for first year and then purpose built viewing box thereafter.

Free alcoholic and soft drinks and snacks on a match day.

Club suit and tie.

Use of the club boardroom during normal office hours for business meetings.

As ever anytihng that the CIC uses which costs the club money the CIC will pay for they are afterall two separate businesses

The red inserts into REA reply are mine and although REA admits that the CIC & the club are separate business' his POV seems to be that any new initiative the CIC comes up with belongs to the CIC and the CIC should get the money raised - it's clearer on the 87 club offers than the 1877 club.

I'll just repeat the point that I've made before that the CIC are using the clubs history & facilities to pay for their takeover.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Bud the Baker

[Stuart Dickson]

I think the goalposts have shifted considerably from CIC1 in terms of how it would function. Previously there were effectively three sets of shooty in goalposts.......one set for general members; one for community members; one for corporate members. There was a verbal agreement made that the general members could have the balance of power on the BoD.

Even going back to CIC1 the detail was still sparse. Very few fans got their head around how it would work. And the bottom line back then was that the 10000 Hours BoD had a veto on decisions made by the CIC Board - this was expressed as something along the lines of "on matters were the business case wasn't proven". We never saw a draft constitution for CIC1 so we never really knew how it would actually work.

Sid, 10000hours members still hold the balance of power. They still hold 52% of the clubs shares. The GLS agreement doesn't change any of that as the shares being put on offer for the £25,000 members are from the 48% minority shareholding. Where the goalposts have shifted a little is that there now appears to be a caveat that has been added that a 10000hours proposal would need to carry a 75% vote before the full 52% shareholding would be used as a block vote - which when you think about it is probably pretty fair.

Like with other member organisations there will be a mechanism in place that triggers a vote. Using the Motherwell AC Constitution as an example - just because it really is crystal clear - all it takes to call an EGM is a petition of 10 fully paid up, voting, members. So, for example, if the football club board decided to put up prices for a particular group and this was unpopular the petition could be raised, the EGM called and then to veto the increase 10000hours members would simply need a 75% majority to block the price rises. Even if the 75% wasn't achieved it could still be blocked if there is another minority shareholder that is also against those increases.

Clarity on the number of members required on the petition to call an EGM is required on the constitution document IMO but I don't think there is a considerable shift at all.

[Stuart Dickson]

I asked the same question (on the 10000 hours website) about the CIC selling club assets & history to fund it buyout and this was the reply -

The red inserts into REA reply are mine and although REA admits that the CIC & the club are separate business' his POV seems to be that any new initiative the CIC comes up with belongs to the CIC and the CIC should get the money raised - it's clearer on the 87 club offers than the 1877 club.

I'll just repeat the point that I've made before that the CIC are using the clubs history & facilities to pay for their takeover.

GLS has put up his shareholding to raise funds for the takeover. Those shares are being used to get those who pay £25,000 closer to the club. And REA quite clearly states that anything the CIC uses that costs the club money, will be paid for by the CIC. I don't see a problem in any of that.

[Guest somner9]

After the clarion call to man the barricades a sum total of 13 new peeps have sent in their direct debits.

Given that within the 643 direct debiters there will be a significant number that are not saints fans, but individuals from the various organisations desperate to get their hands on the assets and facilities at SMP for peppercorns. How many actual saints fans do you think there are in the staggering total of 643???

500?

400?

300?

Lower ?

Should add that all the £25k and £3k membership fees are not, repeat NOT going into SMFC. But they are getting a whole load of benefits that can only be in the gift of SMFC!

likewise the £10 per months

Edited May 28, 2012 by somner9