The Day Fan Ownership Died!

[div]

It's been our club for over 130 years, and come 10000 hours closing deadline guess what??? It'll still be our club come what may.

And if the selling consortium sell the club to a private bidder who then in turn pushes the club heavily into debt to repay their borrowing what then for "our" club ?

The football club is currently in rude health (save the meltdown that is happening in the SPL around about it which it cannot control). This is an unbelievable chance for the fans to safeguard that health and the assets that the outgoing board have delivered by taking ownership of the healthy club and ensuring it remains healthy.

The risks of passing it over to a third party consortium are very real and any attempt to downplay that threat is a nonsense. Once the cheque is signed and the shares are passed over any due diligence that SG and co have done will be utterly worthless.

Why do you think the selling consortium want to sell to the fans so badly ? Why have they rejected higher offers from other bidders over the past two years ?

[St. Sid]

Oh FFS. Sid talks about marketing bollocks from 10000hours and here's you showing that you've believed the marketing bollocks of previous club owners, that you've swallowed it, digested it and become it.

Currently the majority of the "fans" have absolutely no say in the decision making process. They have no membership of the football club. They don't have a vote on the AGM. And they own nothing of the club. If the club suddenly had a massive windfall they wouldn't get a share of it. If the 52% shareholding consortium decided they were going to asset strip the club, cancel SFA Membership and league registration there would be absolutely f**k all that the average St Mirren "fan" could do about it.

What the "fans" have been spoon fed by marketing bollocks is that by supporting the club - offering the club their custom - it is somehow their club. If that logic was sound Tesco's would be "my" supermarket, BP would be "my" petrol company, and Continental Airlines and Virgin are operating a fleet of "my" jets.

You do have a choice. You can continue to be a customer of St Mirren FC as has been the case for as long as you've supported the club, or you could look to something like what 10000hours is proposing which is an opportunity to become a full voting member of an organisation that will own a controlling stake in the club you support. It's a free choice, and you are perfectly entitled to make your choice, but don't be fooled by marketing shite. As a fan you are only a customer of the football club.

Stu, the fans are not being asked to take on a £1.5Million debt. For a £1.5Million investment I would expect fans to be getting a far better deal that they are getting. I would also expect them to be getting treated with a bit more respect than they are. We have had to demand a meeting to get more information. We are being told that we need to sign up within the next 9 days or the deal we haven't seen yet is off the table.

SMISA has asked us all to look into the detail of the offer. We have asked for it and 10000 Hours have refused to supply it. You can talk down to other fans all day long, but you can hide the bare facts of that with more made up shite from yourself.

If 10000 Hours refuse to respond to the request for information then we should be requesting an extention to the deadline until they have time to provide it. We are seeing an attempt to push this through. That is not fan empowerment - that is trying to rip the pish out of fans.

[St. Sid]

And if the selling consortium sell the club to a private bidder who then in turn pushes the club heavily into debt to repay their borrowing what then for "our" club ?

The football club is currently in rude health (save the meltdown that is happening in the SPL around about it which it cannot control). This is an unbelievable chance for the fans to safeguard that health and the assets that the outgoing board have delivered by taking ownership of the healthy club and ensuring it remains healthy.

The risks of passing it over to a third party consortium are very real and any attempt to downplay that threat is a nonsense. Once the cheque is signed and the shares are passed over any due diligence that SG and co have done will be utterly worthless.

Why do you think the selling consortium want to sell to the fans so badly ? Why have they rejected higher offers from other bidders over the past two years ?

That all blah, blah Div....where is the detail that we have asked for.

Here's the tagline for the big push from 10000 Hours: "The time has come for all the talking to stop and action to be taken."

The action to be taken is to sign up to pay off 10 years worth of debt. It is no surprise that 10000 Hours don't want fans talking about this and just want the financial commitment. 10000 Hours doesn't want meetings - we had to demand one...10000 Hours doesn't to provide information and they haven't. This is being pushed though - give us your money and shut your faces.....very good.

[Stuart Dickson]

Stu, the fans are not being asked to take on a £1.5Million debt. For a £1.5Million investment I would expect fans to be getting a far better deal that they are getting. I would also expect them to be getting treated with a bit more respect than they are. We have had to demand a meeting to get more information. We are being told that we need to sign up within the next 9 days or the deal we haven't seen yet is off the table.

SMISA has asked us all to look into the detail of the offer. We have asked for it and 10000 Hours have refused to supply it. You can talk down to other fans all day long, but you can hide the bare facts of that with more made up shite from yourself.

If 10000 Hours refuse to respond to the request for information then we should be requesting an extention to the deadline until they have time to provide it. We are seeing an attempt to push this through. That is not fan empowerment - that is trying to rip the pish out of fans.

Where is the made up shite from me Sid? Somner has come away with some shit about how St Mirren was always "our" club and always will be regardless of ownership. That's trite nonsense. The fact is that currently your average St Mirren supporter is simply a consumer. They can bark at the football all the want, threaten boycotts, and post angry messages on the net but at the end of the day they've got no influence in the running of the club - as you example about disabled prices shows.

Under the 10000hours model we know that for a £10 per month stake they will become a voting member of 10000hours, who will in turn own a controlling stake in St Mirren FC. We also know that if there is an issue - like disabled pricing - where a proportion of the membership feel strongly enough about it all that is required is for a small percentage of members to petition the 10000hours board and you've got an EGM where the question can be raised and voted on.

You are right that there is detail missing, but what is abundantly clear is that your typical fan will go from being a consumer of the club to having a vote in the running of the club - even if it is only to elect their board member every 3 years.

[TsuMirren]

They don't want fans talking about it, yet their site has a forum. The majority of missing info is around the funding, with it now looking like a social funder, GLS, the consortium and possibly REA providing finance or deferred payments from the membership fees.

My overall view is that fans paying for the club and running the club as is whilst maintaining 8th place is a damned sight better than handing the club over and allowing someone else to throw cash in with no long term guarantees. Just look around at Livingston, Dundee or even Kilmarnock at clubs who run up debt with little return. I realise that historica

ly fans have always preferred someone else did the work/funding, but we have a chance to change that and also show exactly how much we care.

[St. Sid]

Where is the made up shite from me Sid?

Stu, what we have is exchanges of opinion in a forum about how the CIC & SMFC may or may not function. What is not being provided is clear information from 10000 Hours. We have fans trying to convince fans based on their own wishful thinking of what they hope will be delivered. There is no written commitment whatsoever from 10000 Hours as yet.

There are some pretty major information gaps that you would expect to have been dealt with at this stage in the game. Basically 9 days to either go for this or drop it - if the deadline is to be believed...this time around. The entire process now is about trying to push the fans into it rather than allow them to make an informed, considered choice.

[div]

The action to be taken is to sign up to pay off 10 years worth of debt. It is no surprise that 10000 Hours don't want fans talking about this and just want the financial commitment. 10000 Hours doesn't want meetings - we had to demand one...10000 Hours doesn't to provide information and they haven't. This is being pushed though - give us your money and shut your faces.....very good.

This will be the sixth public meeting they have held in the last 12 months.

A project that has been 2.5 years in the making is hardly one I'd describe as being "pushed through".

The deadline on the bid was not introduced by 10000Hours, it was introduced by the people selling the shares.

We cannot mandate to them that we wait until every single supporter is happy. At the end of the day you are either in this or you aren't, you either trust the people involved or you don't. It's pretty much going to be as simple as that.

[Stuart Dickson]

Stu, what we have is exchanges of opinion in a forum about how the CIC & SMFC may or may not function. What is not being provided is clear information from 10000 Hours. We have fans trying to convince fans based on their own wishful thinking of what they hope will be delivered. There is no written commitment whatsoever from 10000 Hours as yet.

There are some pretty major information gaps that you would expect to have been dealt with at this stage in the game. Basically 9 days to either go for this or drop it - if the deadline is to be believed...this time around. The entire process now is about trying to push the fans into it rather than allow them to make an informed, considered choice.

Sid again, my post was entirely factual. It wasn't wishful thinking. Fans are currently consumers of the club with no legal right of influence. 10000hours is giving fans the opportunity to be more than that - even if it is just the ability to call an EGM and to elect their representatives on the CIC board every 3 years (points which the draft constitution states quite clearly).

I don't have a problem at all with your desire for more information. I've stated I support that and would back you on that but you are simply not going to get a situation on a football forum where only those who are anti CiC are allowed to post and demand silence from those who have an alternative opinion until REA responds. If that's what you want then follow the FAQ process on the 10000hours website.

[St. Sid]

The agreement in principle is for a sale totalling £1.5m.

£500k of that is coming from a single social funder.

The other £1m will be

This will be the sixth public meeting they have held in the last 12 months.

A project that has been 2.5 years in the making is hardly one I'd describe as being "pushed through".

The deadline on the bid was not introduced by 10000Hours, it was introduced by the people selling the shares.

We cannot mandate to them that we wait until every single supporter is happy. At the end of the day you are either in this or you aren't, you either trust the people involved or you don't. It's pretty much going to be as simple as that.

The other £1Million will be what? You appear to have lost focus the div....did you get making stuff up writers block.

Div, the public meetings all took place back when the CIC offering was unrecognisable to what it is today. At the last public meeting there was no mention of GLS's 1877 club. There were questions asked at that meeting that we never got an answer to.

So the future of the club is now the leap of faith that I said it was. We are not going to get the information requested? Should we not trust the advice of SMISA?

Are 10000 Hours, GLS, the consortium and the social funders all entering into this deal based on a gentleman's agreement? Are they f"k! The only ones being asked to gamble are the ones paying the £1.5Million over 10 years. All the other parties will have carried out their risk assessments as well as negotiating their positions. I can just picture that meeting with the social funder....£500K, nae bother, you've got a face we can trust....

[St. Sid]

Sid again, my post was entirely factual. It wasn't wishful thinking. Fans are currently consumers of the club with no legal right of influence. 10000hours is giving fans the opportunity to be more than that - even if it is just the ability to call an EGM and to elect their representatives on the CIC board every 3 years (points which the draft constitution states quite clearly).

I don't have a problem at all with your desire for more information. I've stated I support that and would back you on that but you are simply not going to get a situation on a football forum where only those who are anti CiC are allowed to post and demand silence from those who have an alternative opinion until REA responds. If that's what you want then follow the FAQ process on the 10000hours website.

Exactly...Stu....the information...the facts needs to be coming from 10000 Hours, not from fans offering opinions based on gut feel, or who they do and don't trust.

The fact appears to be that we are being asked to commit the majority share ownership of the club to £1.5Million of debt. The facts about fan empowerment that you refer to are in a draft constitution. It will still be in draft from when the £1.5Million debt is committed to....and according to provisional timescales their will be no constitution / legal entity in place for 6 months.

The only legal document relating to the fans involvement in the CIC is the direct debit mandate for money to be taken out of our accounts. The fans have absolutely shag all legal rights at this point in time and won't have any until the CIC becomes a constituted legal entity. There is no formal offer to fans. There is no guarantee of anything to fans. You sign up as a standard member and there is nothing - zilch - not a greggs sausage roll of a morsel of information on what this actually gives you.

Every fan - not member should be getting a document specifying exactly what they will get in return for committing to £1.5Million of debt. At the moment, the only gaurantee is the direct debit mandate. That is what people should sign up against - not a warm fuzzy feeling about securing the future of the club, or fairy tales about fan empowerment - when no such commitment has been made.

[Stuart Dickson]

Exactly...Stu....the information...the facts needs to be coming from 10000 Hours, not from fans offering opinions based on gut feel, or who they do and don't trust.

The fact appears to be that we are being asked to commit the majority share ownership of the club to £1.5Million of debt. The facts about fan empowerment that you refer to are in a draft constitution. It will still be in draft from when the £1.5Million debt is committed to....and according to provisional timescales their will be no constitution / legal entity in place for 6 months.

The only legal document relating to the fans involvement in the CIC is the direct debit mandate for money to be taken out of our accounts. The fans have absolutely shag all legal rights at this point in time and won't have any until the CIC becomes a constituted legal entity. There is no formal offer to fans. There is no guarantee of anything to fans. You sign up as a standard member and there is nothing - zilch - not a greggs sausage roll of a morsel of information on what this actually gives you.

Every fan - not member should be getting a document specifying exactly what they will get in return for committing to £1.5Million of debt. At the moment, the only gaurantee is the direct debit mandate. That is what people should sign up against - not a warm fuzzy feeling about securing the future of the club, or fairy tales about fan empowerment - when no such commitment has been made.

So why post repeatedly on a fans forum instead of asking the question directly to 10000hours either on their forum or in their FAQ section? By posting on B&W Army you must know that your posts are going to be commented upon, and challenged by other forum users.

I have to say though Sid I'm not going on gut feel. I've got a huge gut but at the moment all that feels is empty and I've got a rather tasty looking hot chicken salad waiting for me as soon as I've finished this post. When it comes to 10000hours I am going on the understanding I picked up from the SEN Conference I attended last year, the pertinent examples of how other SEN's have worked, and on my study of other examples in the football sector like Spartans, Falkirk Steins, Stenhousemuir and Clyde. I am also going on the few exchanges of Information I've had with REA over the last year which have included a few e-mails and two telephone conversations, one lengthy and one reasonably short.

I have to say Sid I was always more sceptical of what 10000hours were attempting to do than you ever were, because of some of the views I gathered at the SEN Conference. There was some negativity about the bid for the shareholding cause it was being done "back to front" - the hard way if you like - but there was never any question that being a CIC would be the ideal set up for a senior football club. .

Edited June 5, 2012 by Stuart Dickson

[TsuMirren]

So, how do you guarantee things in tne FAQ then? Are you insinuating that the three elected members to tne CIC board won't push it through? Are you saying the FAQ is lies?

What fans get, alongside the debt, is chance to influence the running of the club through various avenues and ensure fans have control. We'll have an interim board and the chance to mould this as we see fit. Not everyone will get their way, but there will be a consensus. To anyone who thinks we're funding others to run the club I'd just say that they should concentrate more on everyone allowing them to be involved.

[St. Sid]

So why post repeatedly on a fans forum instead of asking the question directly to 10000hours either on their forum or in their FAQ section? By posting on B&W Army you must know that your posts are going to be commented upon, and challenged by other forum users.

I have to say though Sid I'm not going on gut feel. I've got a huge gut but at the moment all that feels is empty and I've got a rather tasty looking hot chicken salad waiting for me as soon as I've finished this post. When it comes to 10000hours I am going on the understanding I picked up from the SEN Conference I attended last year, the pertinent examples of how other SEN's have worked, and on my study of other examples in the football sector like Spartans, Falkirk Steins, Stenhousemuir and Clyde. I am also going on the few exchanges of Information I've had with REA over the last year which have included a few e-mails and two telephone conversations, one lengthy and one reasonably short.

I have to say Sid I was always more sceptical of what 10000hours were attempting to do than you ever were, because of some of the views I gathered at the SEN Conference. There was some negativity about the bid for the shareholding cause it was being done "back to front" - the hard way if you like - but there was never any question that being a CIC would be the ideal set up for a senior football club. .

Good for you Stu....the only problem with that is it doesn't actually equate to a single fact about the CIC. Its just yet more blah, blah from a fellow "fan".

[St. Sid]

So, how do you guarantee things in tne FAQ then? Are you insinuating that the three elected members to tne CIC board won't push it through? Are you saying the FAQ is lies?

What fans get, alongside the debt, is chance to influence the running of the club through various avenues and ensure fans have control. We'll have an interim board and the chance to mould this as we see fit. Not everyone will get their way, but there will be a consensus. To anyone who thinks we're funding others to run the club I'd just say that they should concentrate more on everyone allowing them to be involved.

No they don't. What the fans will be legally entitled to under the only contract they have with 10000 Hours is to have £10-a-month or whatever amount they have been mugged out of. There is no insinuation here - it is a fact. The rest is based on exactly the same sort of gentleman's agreement that saw GLS and KMG locked out of the consortium and their shares rendered worthless.

[Stuart Dickson]

Good for you Stu....the only problem with that is it doesn't actually equate to a single fact about the CIC. Its just yet more blah, blah from a fellow "fan".

You don't want me to give you facts though - you only want to hear that from 10000hours. Oh and I'm not a fan I am however a potential member.

[St. Sid]

You don't want me to give you facts though - you only want to hear that from 10000hours. Oh and I'm not a fan I am however a potential member.

I knew you'd get it eventually.

A nice wee doc providing detail that will put to bed the concerns a few us will have after the revelations from SMISA. Better we are all in this together rather than having the fans split. 750 members pointing and laughing at seething fellow fans is not what I would want to see fan ownership become. I would rather everyone was as comfortable as they could be with this venture. Something intended to be about the community shouldn't start its life giving the middle finger to another part of the community that doesn't happen to be a member. Every effort should be made to ensure all fans understand and are comfortable with this. That is not what I am seeing from 10000 Hours at this point....the values have all been shot to f"k.

[TsuMirren]

No they don't. What the fans will be legally entitled to under the only contract they have with 10000 Hours is to have £10-a-month or whatever amount they have been mugged out of. There is no insinuation here - it is a fact. The rest is based on exactly the same sort of gentleman's agreement that saw GLS and KMG locked out of the consortium and their shares rendered worthless.

Bloody hell! Do you want every clause of the final constitution as an Act? The FAQ's content should drive building the constitution and supporting procedures, fans should take that on board and realise it's a lot better than "own the club, pick the team". SMISA seemed to concentrate on the admin possibility, possibly through assumptions based around their member figures. One token seat on the board and this model are two totally different things. If this goes through we could get non-Saint members worldwide, SMISA didn't have that appeal.

[Stuart Dickson]

I knew you'd get it eventually.

A nice wee doc providing detail that will put to bed the concerns a few us will have after the revelations from SMISA. Better we are all in this together rather than having the fans split. 750 members pointing and laughing at seething fellow fans is not what I would want to see fan ownership become. I would rather everyone was as comfortable as they could be with this venture. Something intended to be about the community shouldn't start its life giving the middle finger to another part of the community that doesn't happen to be a member. Every effort should be made to ensure all fans understand and are comfortable with this. That is not what I am seeing from 10000 Hours at this point....the values have all been shot to f"k.

Sid - we've done this bit already and I talked about the Well Society where grown ups appear to exist. At Motherwell some fans can afford to join and others can't. From what I can see locally there's no anger, no pointing and laughing, no jealousy and no waving around of middle fingers. Instead all I hear is a great deal of positivity from Motherwell fans about Fan Ownership and a fair bit of pride in the fact that LeeAnn Dempster claims they are the best Community Club in Scotland - credentials I would say that are somewhat in question but I digress.

And I can assure you most of their membership has not had even the same level of information that 10000hours has provided.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Stuart Dickson

[TsuMirren]

The FAQ is a nice wee doc, it touches on involvement, the forms of membership and the possibility of the CIC going in to admin. So, what is missing from that?

[davidg]

Sid, just sign the f**king form.

Edited June 5, 2012 by davidg

[St. Sid]

Bloody hell! Do you want every clause of the final constitution as an Act? The FAQ's content should drive building the constitution and supporting procedures, fans should take that on board and realise it's a lot better than "own the club, pick the team". SMISA seemed to concentrate on the admin possibility, possibly through assumptions based around their member figures. One token seat on the board and this model are two totally different things. If this goes through we could get non-Saint members worldwide, SMISA didn't have that appeal.

Very childish response TsuMirren. The point I am making is that fans are being left with no gaurantees of anything whatsoever, whilst all the other groups involved will have legally binding agreements in place prior to the transaction taking place. The odd thing about that is that the other groups are all gaining from their involvement in the venture. The fans group are paying for the gains being made by the other groups, but have zero agreements in place - not even non-legally binding agreements in place. It is a very valid point and making childish repsonses to it does 10000 Hours case no good whatsoever.

I couldn't give a toss what Ebbsfleet do. I care about the risk to St Mirren Football Club.

SMISA have seen enough of a risk to pull their support. I think it is fair for fans to express some concern about that and seek answers. Your "seems" statement is an insult to SMISA and concerned fans.

Let's get to the bottom of what the CIC is and how it works....let's see that bottomed out in a binding document. Let's kill off any niggling doubts and move fan ownership forward on a positive footing.

[St. Sid]

The FAQ is a nice wee doc, it touches on involvement, the forms of membership and the possibility of the CIC going in to admin. So, what is missing from that?

It's shit.

[St. Sid]

Sid, just sign the f**king form.

I'll sing hee-haw until further information is provided, and any fan that cares about the club, its community, its fans - all of the fans (even SPS) - should take the same view.

[TsuMirren]

SMISA didn't say much, seems is therefore appropriate.

Are you saying we should each sign a document giving legal entitlement to voting on club operations?

"It's shit" is just yet another Sid response with no substance, granted it's about 300 words shorter than usual.

What should be in the document? Have you ever seen a fans model constitution or worked within the processes of one? Your constant rants anytime I mention Ebbsfleet are pathetic, they still have over 1,000 members and we should be looking at what went well there.

[St. Sid]

SMISA didn't say much, seems is therefore appropriate.

Are you saying we should each sign a document giving legal entitlement to voting on club operations?

"It's shit" is just yet another Sid response with no substance, granted it's about 300 words shorter than usual.

What should be in the document? Have you ever seen a fans model constitution or worked within the processes of one? Your constant rants anytime I mention Ebbsfleet are pathetic, they still have over 1,000 members and we should be looking at what went well there.

TsuMirren, you weren't at the public meeting. SMiSA spoke for the best part of 2 hours. They said quite a lot and asked quite a lot of REA, who was there pretty much fielding the questions alone. Many of the questions were unanswered including some fairly critical ones in terms of risk.

I am not saying we should do anything Tsu....I am highlighting what we don't have at the moment. The only thing fans do have is a direct debit form to pay 10000 Hours money. The rest is blurb and blah, blah.

The FAQs are shit - I have highlighted how they don;t reflect what is in the draft constitution, which renders it shit too.