St. Sid Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 You may say "it just does" but the factual reality is that it actually doesn't. The 10000Hours Community Interest Company carries all the debt, the football club carries none of it. You can argue against that until you are blue in the face. It won't change that fact. Div, that is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. There is £1.5Million of debt +. That is a bottom line fact. The fans are being asks to service all of that debt and the interest. That debt is incurred to pay money to other fans including one that will take control of the club. Take away the scaremongering and the rallying nonsense about community, transparency and all the other frilly bollox wrapped around this and essentially you have fans already supporting the club with significant levels of its income being asked to invest even more cash for what exactly - a vote. £1.5Million for a vote. Fans will own £1.5Million of debt, not the club. And even if the monthly targets are met it still doesn't meet the required number to service the debt. There's no community, no transparency, little if any fan influence on the running of the club.......there's just a rally to try and get enough fans to service a £1.5Million debt. The one thing that should be remembered by 10000 Hours is that the club will continue to be entirely dependent on a majority of supporters who are not CIC members. There are far more supporters that will continue to turn up and support the club week in week out without joining the CIC than there will be joining the CIC. That is another hard and fast fact. 10000 Hours have failed to convince a majority of the support never mind all of it. And this IS a personal opinion - they stopped trying some time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Div, that is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. There is £1.5Million of debt +. That is a bottom line fact. The fans are being asks to service all of that debt and the interest. That debt is incurred to pay money to other fans including one that will take control of the club. Take away the scaremongering and the rallying nonsense about community, transparency and all the other frilly bollox wrapped around this and essentially you have fans already supporting the club with significant levels of its income being asked to invest even more cash for what exactly - a vote. £1.5Million for a vote. Fans will own £1.5Million of debt, not the club. And even if the monthly targets are met it still doesn't meet the required number to service the debt. There's no community, no transparency, little if any fan influence on the running of the club.......there's just a rally to try and get enough fans to service a £1.5Million debt. The one thing that should be remembered by 10000 Hours is that the club will continue to be entirely dependent on a majority of supporters who are not CIC members. There are far more supporters that will continue to turn up and support the club week in week out without joining the CIC than there will be joining the CIC. That is another hard and fast fact. 10000 Hours have failed to convince a majority of the support never mind all of it. And this IS a personal opinion - they stopped trying some time ago. Just as a quick aside...For all the trumpeting of fan ownership the reality is that anyone, whomever, would still have needed to find £1.5 million to pay the price and to have that up front would have been nigh on impossible. Add to the fact that neither SMISA or any other would have done any of the setup work for free or even covered any of the fees covered by Richard etc over the past two years. It should be this, we should do that, why doesn't X come in with a bid...it's all there, it's all wrapped up within CIC and just waiting for people to pick it up. Some want to pick it up and have, others are taking the "ooh a magazine on the floor, i'll get to it eventually" approach, some are assuming the postman will bring good news of another offer and others for some reason have decided to just throw it in the bin as it's too much trouble to open.The opinion about the other two bids is currently up there with the Ken McGeoch assumptions with regards to acceptance and the disparate ration of analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Well just to repeat myself I'm agin it - I don't believe there'e enough new money for the CIC to not to be a drain on the club and I've not seen anything to convince me I'm wrong. Where's the money coming from Monthly subscriptions, at £10pm that's £1000 before the question of paying off GLS & his two mystery shareholders is addressed. What perks will the CICers vote themselves eg if it's a dicount of ST's as has been suggested both last year and this then it's costing the club. The 87 & 1877 clubs both offer access to club events & facilities yet because the specific ideas are deemed "new to the club" it would seem the CIC is to be the beneficiary. The Void, and a subsequent increase in hospitality revenue. As I've said before if it's such a surefire moneyspinner why aren't we doing it already and if it turns out not to be so then I presume the CIC's repayment plans are in tatters. As the CIC has evolved my worries have only increased, the demonization & expulsion of Ken McGeoch the return of the prodigal GLS. What is 10000hours anyway - a CIC or a Co-op or some sort of hybrid I'm not quite sure? Anyway the whole sorry saga is coming to an end, the CIC or some out-of-towners with no emotional attachment to the club - I can't say that I care much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Just as a quick aside...For all the trumpeting of fan ownership the reality is that anyone, whomever, would still have needed to find £1.5 million to pay the price and to have that up front would have been nigh on impossible. Add to the fact that neither SMISA or any other would have done any of the setup work for free or even covered any of the fees covered by Richard etc over the past two years. It should be this, we should do that, why doesn't X come in with a bid...it's all there, it's all wrapped up within CIC and just waiting for people to pick it up. Some want to pick it up and have, others are taking the "ooh a magazine on the floor, i'll get to it eventually" approach, some are assuming the postman will bring good news of another offer and others for some reason have decided to just throw it in the bin as it's too much trouble to open.The opinion about the other two bids is currently up there with the Ken McGeoch assumptions with regards to acceptance and the disparate ration of analysis. Incoherent madtalk from TsuMirren....no idea what you are on about now Bud. Take a deep breath and try and reconstrust that looneytoon paragraph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Anyway the whole sorry saga is coming to an end, the CIC or some out-of-towners with no emotional attachment to the club - I can't say that I care much. Pretty much where my head is too. The CIC / SMFC is now so detached from the support it doesn't really make much odds whether its 10000 Hours or some other non-St Mirren supporting owner wiring into the sausage rolls. If SMiSA were to get a fans rep on the BoD tomorrow I couldn;t really give a toss about that either. Its all about what they do when they get there and to date we have been told nothing whatsoever about their plans. Just a lot of shite about "whatever you want it to be".....I want zero debt, which is where we are now...let's see how they are going to deliver that within the next 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Pretty much where my head is too. The CIC / SMFC is now so detached from the support it doesn't really make much odds whether its 10000 Hours or some other non-St Mirren supporting owner wiring into the sausage rolls. If SMiSA were to get a fans rep on the BoD tomorrow I couldn;t really give a toss about that either. Its all about what they do when they get there and to date we have been told nothing whatsoever about their plans. Just a lot of shite about "whatever you want it to be".....I want zero debt, which is where we are now...let's see how they are going to deliver that within the next 10 years. If 10000 hours are successful we'll all be very interested in budgets, cashflow and revenue streams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smcc Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Actually you might want to re-direct your hate filled accusations to a Mr S Gilmour and his selling consortium! Because that is who intends to sell 52% of shares in SMFC to either 10000 hours or the other two bidders who they assure us are "Real Football People" Whether 10000 hours gets the funding it needs or not is actually nothing to do with me. It's to do with them! So perhaps you should direct some of your hate filled post towards them if you don't end up getting what you want? What I want is the continued existence of a succesfull, debt free football club. Not one that sits under a mountain of debt from day one! As yet no one has put a proposal out to offer that to the fans. I have no idea where you find hate-filled comments in my post, but your suggestion that I direct them towards the consortium of directors makes me wonder whether you have been listening to anything that has been said over the past 3 years. The members of the consortium decided that they had had enough and put the club up for sale. Thus far no bid has come up to their criteria(to which I am not privy) and the CIC is the only show in town about which anything is known and which allows the fans some prospect of influencing club policies. I grant you that it is not ideal but better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 I have no idea where you find hate-filled comments in my post, but your suggestion that I direct them towards the consortium of directors makes me wonder whether you have been listening to anything that has been said over the past 3 years. The members of the consortium decided that they had had enough and put the club up for sale. Thus far no bid has come up to their criteria(to which I am not privy) and the CIC is the only show in town about which anything is known and which allows the fans some prospect of influencing club policies. I grant you that it is not ideal but better the devil you know than the devil you don't. We bit of spin there too.....the "we're tired and have run out of ideas" line is getting a bit tired. I would say getting fans to sign up to pay off £1.5M of debt over the next ten years is not the act of a group of people devoid of ideas. I'd say that is fairly creative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smcc Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 We bit of spin there too.....the "we're tired and have run out of ideas" line is getting a bit tired. I would say getting fans to sign up to pay off £1.5M of debt over the next ten years is not the act of a group of people devoid of ideas. I'd say that is fairly creative. Not everyone's mind is as devious as yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 I have no idea where you find hate-filled comments in my post, but your suggestion that I direct them towards the consortium of directors makes me wonder whether you have been listening to anything that has been said over the past 3 years. The members of the consortium decided that they had had enough and put the club up for sale. Thus far no bid has come up to their criteria(to which I am not privy) and the CIC is the only show in town about which anything is known and which allows the fans some prospect of influencing club policies. I grant you that it is not ideal but better the devil you know than the devil you don't. In your OP you suggested that I'd be grinning whilst swinging a hammer if 10000 hours proposal doesn't go through. I'll be doing neither, but I will be holding them to account in how they run the club I and many others have supported through thick & thin. Just like I've always done. How will you react if 10000 hours are successful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 We bit of spin there too.....the "we're tired and have run out of ideas" line is getting a bit tired. I would say getting fans to sign up to pay off £1.5M of debt over the next ten years is not the act of a group of people devoid of ideas. I'd say that is fairly creative. Yep. It looks like legal pickpocketing to me except without the skill factor since they've decided to do it whilst holding a gun to everyones head as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Not everyone's mind is as devious as yours. And yet I'm not the one looking for a return on the investment I made in the club watching the mince that was served up by the consortium during the Coughlin era.....and there's other fans with much bigger claims than me to get something back out of St Mirren FC. None are asking for a penny - although a wee discount on some cup games or a bit of support for supporters buses now and then would have been appreciated. Instead the fans that have stuck by the club are being asked to take on £1.5Million of debt. Really don't see where my devious mind comes into play there. I'm hardly going to benefit from posting that view. I just want fans to have very real expectations about what it is they are singing up to. I won't promise them "ownership". I won't promise them that they can vote scumgers out of the SPL. I won't make up stories or spread runours about Angelo Massone. I won't try and conceal debt that won't be getting serviced by their subscriptions. I'm not the one being devious and using spin to try and whip up support for 10000 Hours. No prize is worth compromising your integrity....and I don't even have any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smcc Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 In your OP you suggested that I'd be grinning whilst swinging a hammer if 10000 hours proposal doesn't go through. I'll be doing neither, but I will be holding them to account in how they run the club I and many others have supported through thick & thin. Just like I've always done. How will you react if 10000 hours are successful? I have to say that it was you who brought up the "nail in the coffin" analogy(hence my swinging a hammer remark) and, judging by your previous posts on this subject, you will be happy if the CIC does not gain enough members to start. I will be happy if the CIC gets up and running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 I have to say that it was you who brought up the "nail in the coffin" analogy(hence my swinging a hammer remark) and, judging by your previous posts on this subject, you will be happy if the CIC does not gain enough members to start. I will be happy if the CIC gets up and running. This isn't a football match smcc. The CIC getting started is not a victory - it will be the start of a worrying period for fans. Anyone that celebrates the decision irrespective of which way it goes clearly doesn't understand the implications of it. The time for cracking open the champagne will be when the debt is paid off. There were no celebrations when the club announced it was planning to sell Love Street. We all shat ourselves and rightly so. The initial celebrations were when the planning permission was overturned (but we were still shitting ourselves so the party didn't last) and then ultimately when we were sitting in the new stadium watching SG kick a ball into the net to officially open it. You celebrate when the project is complete and successful. SIgning up to £1.5Million of debt is no cause for celebration - it is a time to dread what might be coming in the future - ditto if the decision goes the other way. These are dark days of uncertainty after the success of the ground move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 I have to say that it was you who brought up the "nail in the coffin" analogy(hence my swinging a hammer remark) and, judging by your previous posts on this subject, you will be happy if the CIC does not gain enough members to start. I will be happy if the CIC gets up and running. You see there you go guessing/judging!!! What i and i would suggest (much safer ground with a term like that) all saints fans want is the club to move forward from a postion of financial stability under the current BoD's stewardship, and with the improvement in playing style and results. Any group taking on SMFC has in my opinion to deliver both without exception from day one! We should not be as supporters see our club disadvantaged as a result of a takeover by any group. That includes taking on debt in any way, shape or form! We don't have debt at present (the current BoD assure us of this) and as many have pointed out we should be able to operate without it. I will be happy if we continue to progress debt free, with an improving product on and off the pitch. We have many solid community links at our club, and I wish to see these maintained and built upon, I don't want to see them sidelined to suit an incomimg group and it's partners agenda. If 10000 hours can deliver this I will be happy! If they can't then they will be taking us backward when there is no justifiable reason to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 You see there you go guessing/judging!!! What i and i would suggest (much safer ground with a term like that) all saints fans want is the club to move forward from a postion of financial stability under the current BoD's stewardship, and with the improvement in playing style and results. Any group taking on SMFC has in my opinion to deliver both without exception from day one! We should not be as supporters see our club disadvantaged as a result of a takeover by any group. That includes taking on debt in any way, shape or form! We don't have debt at present (the current BoD assure us of this) and as many have pointed out we should be able to operate without it. I will be happy if we continue to progress debt free, with an improving product on and off the pitch. We have many solid community links at our club, and I wish to see these maintained and built upon, I don't want to see them sidelined to suit an incomimg group and it's partners agenda. If 10000 hours can deliver this I will be happy! If they can't then they will be taking us backward when there is no justifiable reason to do so. Then you better hope that the current board change their minds and don't sell up. Because unless they are giving the club away for free, which they are not, then any change of ownership is going to cause a debt. Do you think the board are going to change their minds? Do you think they will simply gift the club to a safe pair of hands? Neither of those two scenarios is going to be happening so you may as well brace yourself for the club being in debt once it is sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Then you better hope that the current board change their minds and don't sell up. Because unless they are giving the club away for free, which they are not, then any change of ownership is going to cause a debt. There you again with the wild claims trying to stir up fear and interest when it has no basis of fact. There is no evidence of any debt involved in a change of ownership at the club other than the £1.5Million + that fans will be signing up for the 10000 Hours scheme. GLS bid did not have debt attached to it - not all takeovers involve debt. It is one way to take control of a club and guess what - 10000 Hours scheme invovles 100% debt. 10000 Hours high ground on debt disappeared with the £750,000.00 grant. Why not just use the term "likely" and then I won't have to rip the pish out of you every time you try and put spin un complete unknowns. And for the avoidance of doubt there is no bid from Angelo Massone nor has there ever been - that was a lot of shite and the people putting that rumour out were trying to con their fellow fans. Scumbaggery of the highest order. Why not stop all that shite and actually base your argument on facts - not made up nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 There you again with the wild claims trying to stir up fear and interest when it has no basis of fact. There is no evidence of any debt involved in a change of ownership at the club other than the £1.5Million + that fans will be signing up for the 10000 Hours scheme. GLS bid did not have debt attached to it - not all takeovers involve debt. It is one way to take control of a club and guess what - 10000 Hours scheme invovles 100% debt. 10000 Hours high ground on debt disappeared with the £750,000.00 grant. Why not just use the term "likely" and then I won't have to rip the pish out of you every time you try and put spin un complete unknowns. And for the avoidance of doubt there is no bid from Angelo Massone nor has there ever been - that was a lot of shite and the people putting that rumour out were trying to con their fellow fans. Scumbaggery of the highest order. Why not stop all that shite and actually base your argument on facts - not made up nonsense. Did you think i would leave you ripping the pi-ish when theres room on my horse called "Integrity" for two? Climb aboard Sid we'll soon be fry-ing the peeps that say nae debt is due when we grew up we both became sol-diers in the army wearing black & white And we want to make sure oor club doesn't end up just like craig whytes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 There you again with the wild claims trying to stir up fear and interest when it has no basis of fact. There is no evidence of any debt involved in a change of ownership at the club other than the £1.5Million + that fans will be signing up for the 10000 Hours scheme. GLS bid did not have debt attached to it - not all takeovers involve debt. It is one way to take control of a club and guess what - 10000 Hours scheme invovles 100% debt. 10000 Hours high ground on debt disappeared with the £750,000.00 grant. Why not just use the term "likely" and then I won't have to rip the pish out of you every time you try and put spin un complete unknowns. And for the avoidance of doubt there is no bid from Angelo Massone nor has there ever been - that was a lot of shite and the people putting that rumour out were trying to con their fellow fans. Scumbaggery of the highest order. Why not stop all that shite and actually base your argument on facts - not made up nonsense. What is the liklihood of a new buyer coming in and being able to pay cash for the club? Seriously. There is virtually no prospect of a new buyer coming in and not putting the club into debt in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 What is the liklihood of a new buyer coming in and being able to pay cash for the club? Seriously. There is virtually no prospect of a new buyer coming in and not putting the club into debt in the process. Supposition again Reyand......all you need to do is use the term "likely"....it will be just as effective and actually assist with the credibility of your point. Here's an example: It is likely that a traditional takeover may require some debt; however highly unlikely that they would require 100% £1.5Million debt like 10000 Hours. Here continuith the lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 They just don't get it Reynard so no use trying. However if outsiders come in and buy the club Sumner9 & Sid are book marked because the club will have a lot of debt then of that you can be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Supposition again Reyand......all you need to do is use the term "likely"....it will be just as effective and actually assist with the credibility of your point. Here's an example: It is likely that a traditional takeover may require some debt; however highly unlikely that they would require 100% £1.5Million debt like 10000 Hours. Here continuith the lesson. In effect you think SG is telling lies about a take over. Wrote it before Sid your playing high stakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 In effect you think SG is telling lies about a take over. Wrote it before Sid your playing high stakes The opposite is true LS. I am actually stating that there may be debt involved in the other bids. That is factually correct. Some fans by contrast are making wild claims in an effort to try and sway fans. I want fans to make the decision based on facts, not spin. Fans are clever enough to work out that any other bids are likely to put the clubs assets up for debt. That is all that needs to be said about it. However, you also need to balance that by being clear that there is risk to the club under the 10000 Hours scheme. Let fans decide based on the facts - stop trying to ram it down their throats. Fans aren't stupid and don't need to be dictated to how they should think about this. Stick to the facts and I'll keep quiet. Keep posting shite and I will offer balance. Think of me as an old school Robin Day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Supposition again Reyand......all you need to do is use the term "likely"....it will be just as effective and actually assist with the credibility of your point. Here's an example: It is likely that a traditional takeover may require some debt; however highly unlikely that they would require 100% £1.5Million debt like 10000 Hours. Here continuith the lesson. You are allowed to use words like highly unlikely? Yet you castigate me for telling you that in a conventional buyout of the club that the likes of you and Somner seem to be supporting is highly likely to lead to the club being in debt? Aye very good! Unless there is a cash buyer out there jsut desperate to cough up for his new toy then there is zero chance of the club having no debt to contend with. Zero chance. I'll say it agin for the thicky thicky shit shits............. ZERO CHANCE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 You are allowed to use words like highly unlikely? Yet you castigate me for telling you that in a conventional buyout of the club that the likes of you and Somner seem to be supporting is highly likely to lead to the club being in debt? Aye very good! Unless there is a cash buyer out there jsut desperate to cough up for his new toy then there is zero chance of the club having no debt to contend with. Zero chance. I'll say it agin for the thicky thicky shit shits............. ZERO CHANCE. You're doing it again. Pure supposition! I am not supporting anything. And I won't display the arrognace to confirm or deny somner9's position - I shall leave the wild allegations and wild claims to you. I am just picking you up on your ongoing wild claims about there definitely being debt involved in any takeover of a club. I gave you an example of how you can use the terms "likely" and "unlikely" to maintain a level of gravitas without make wild exaggerated claims. I really don;t see anyone signing a direct debit based on rank amateurs trying to stir up hysteria. People will weigh up the facts - the real ones, not the hyberbole and make their own decision. I have already agreed that the pans have been put in a catch22, damned if you do - damned if you don't situation through the use of the deadline and the dodgy interview by a self-confessed 10000 Hoursaphile. Fans have a tough decision to make.....jump now for a guaranteed £1.5Million of debt or wait and see what the other bids are like - if they even exist at all. I'm not responsible for that position - the consortium are. The guys that fans will be paying the £1.5Million for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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