Stuart Dickson Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 It's speculation Sid. We don't know what price the consortium are willing to accept or what they are being offered now, we've no idea what funding levels are being drawn down and we've no idea if there is a draw down arrangement in place where the selling consortium would get their payments in instalments. However I think this highlights pretty much what I was talking about earlier. The actual figures don't matter beyond a tasty bit of gossip and speculation. What I would imagine would be more important to your average St Mirren supporter is who the main creditor will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted May 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 It's speculation Sid. We don't know what price the consortium are willing to accept or what they are being offered now, we've no idea what funding levels are being drawn down and we've no idea if there is a draw down arrangement in place where the selling consortium would get their payments in instalments. However I think this highlights pretty much what I was talking about earlier. The actual figures don't matter beyond a tasty bit of gossip and speculation. What I would imagine would be more important to your average St Mirren supporter is who the main creditor will be. I think you are wrong there Stu. Fans will read information if it is supplied to them in a reasonable format. You can already see comments about not going to the meeting in June as they don't think it will be any different from the last meetings. We need a document that moves away from the marketing blah and deliver straight forward facts such as the finances, the numbers, required, risks, etc. Fans would bite 10000 Hours hand off for a document like that just now. I also think it would be a positive step for the numbers signing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 I think you are wrong there Stu. Fans will read information if it is supplied to them in a reasonable format. You can already see comments about not going to the meeting in June as they don't think it will be any different from the last meetings. We need a document that moves away from the marketing blah and deliver straight forward facts such as the finances, the numbers, required, risks, etc. Fans would bite 10000 Hours hand off for a document like that just now. I also think it would be a positive step for the numbers signing up. How many read the constitution Sid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibbles old paperboy Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Is the sale price not going to be whatever 10000Hours can offer based on the number of completed DD mandates and 87 club memberships and it will then be up to the consortium to decide if they accept it or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 The biggest risk and threat to this proposal should it move forward is that the co-operative movement will refuse to recognise 10000/CiC as a co-operative. Because they have not adhered to co-operative values & principles! Therfore they will be denied co-op status. What then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 The biggest risk and threat to this proposal should it move forward is that the co-operative movement will refuse to recognise 10000/CiC as a co-operative. Because they have not adhered to co-operative values & principles! Therfore they will be denied co-op status. What then? Then an external party will have blocked fan ownership in the same way as the SNP blocked the last attempt. I'm not overly sure that they will deny co-op status. The CIC model is certainly different; however I reckon that the co-op movement would only be interested in the CIC Board side of it. It is basically a co-op to buy and manage a shareholding. The fact it is to buy control in SMFC may be viewed as being irrelevant. I doubt it is accidental that there is zero reference to SMFC in the constitution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Then an external party will have blocked fan ownership in the same way as the SNP blocked the last attempt. I'm not overly sure that they will deny co-op status. The CIC model is certainly different; however I reckon that the co-op movement would only be interested in the CIC Board side of it. It is basically a co-op to buy and manage a shareholding. The fact it is to buy control in SMFC may be viewed as being irrelevant. I doubt it is accidental that there is zero reference to SMFC in the constitution. This. Somner has been grasping at this straw for ages but the co-op is 10000hours - not St Mirren FC. A look at the Co-operative Banks takeover of Lloyds Banking Group business in Scotland shows just how wrong Somner is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 The biggest risk and threat to this proposal should it move forward is that the co-operative movement will refuse to recognise 10000/CiC as a co-operative. Because they have not adhered to co-operative values & principles! Therfore they will be denied co-op status. What then? 10000Hours is a Community Interest Company, running using a co-operative model. It does not have nor need "co-op status". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 A co-op must operate by and be seen to operate by clear democratic process. 10000 hours have taken all the big decisions away from their potential members, but want said members to make their annual contribution having had no democratic say in how the co-op was formed. Is the 10000 cic/co-op not the proposed buyer of 52% shareholding in SMFC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 10000Hours is a Community Interest Company, running using a co-operative model. It does not have nor need "co-op status". So basically ReA et all have misled an awful lot of people? " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 So basically ReA et all have misled an awful lot of people? " Like I said, it is a Community Interest Company using a Co-Operative ownership model. The underlying legal entity is, and always has been a Community Interest Company. That hasn't changed from day one. You will need to attack 10000Hours from a different angle on this one, but I am sure you will manage to spin it somehow ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Like I said, it is a Community Interest Company using a Co-Operative ownership model. The underlying legal entity is, and always has been a Community Interest Company. That hasn't changed from day one. div again I don't think you need to defend this, but ffs they've plastered "St Mirren Fans' Co-operative" across everything they've produced. either it's a co-op or it isn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 div again I don't think you need to defend this, but ffs they've plastered "St Mirren Fans' Co-operative" across everything they've produced. either it's a co-op or it isn't? It is a community interest company using a co-operative ownership model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) So basically ReA et all have misled an awful lot of people? " It is a community interest company using a co-operative ownership model. That's not what it says on the tin! And the only similarity to a co-op model is the much diluted version of one member, one vote, which also isn't as clear as that Edited June 1, 2012 by somner9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottd Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 We should have a new thread called '10000 Hours - Does anyone give a shit anymore?' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 So basically ReA et all have misled an awful lot of people? " This is a far better point from you somner9 as it exemplifies yet more confusion around what the CIC / SMFC proposal actually is. The OMOV only reflects on 10000 Hours, not on empowerment in decision making at SMFC. You need to move away from trying to find the silver bullet that will kill the kick. Especially if you start trying to utilise external third parties as has been done in the past with the SNP. This is a massive decision that has been placed in the hands of the fans. The biggest issue is the lact of information available to fans, and the lack of opportunity for fans to negotiate their position. What we have now is a corporate to consumer offer. If you want it buy it, it you don;t want it don't buy it. My issue is that no cnut really knows what they are buying into and they dontt have the opportunity to negotiate a better deal for the fans. We can't review what the CIC itself is as we have no information. We can't gauge how SMFC will operate because we have no information. Up until the last few hours we weren't even informaed that their was going to be a new BoD created within SMFC. We are being asked to make a decision based on a leap of faith that the setup will be in our interests. That is an unacceptable position to be in. We now have fans being asked to commit to a new CIC organisation and structure at SMFC when no detail have been made available. It is shit communication and a shit process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 This is a far better point from you somner9 as it exemplifies yet more confusion around what the CIC / SMFC proposal actually is. The OMOV only reflects on 10000 Hours, not on empowerment in decision making at SMFC. You need to move away from trying to find the silver bullet that will kill the kick. Especially if you start trying to utilise external third parties as has been done in the past with the SNP. This is a massive decision that has been placed in the hands of the fans. The biggest issue is the lact of information available to fans, and the lack of opportunity for fans to negotiate their position. What we have now is a corporate to consumer offer. If you want it buy it, it you don;t want it don't buy it. My issue is that no cnut really knows what they are buying into and they dontt have the opportunity to negotiate a better deal for the fans. We can't review what the CIC itself is as we have no information. We can't gauge how SMFC will operate because we have no information. Up until the last few hours we weren't even informaed that their was going to be a new BoD created within SMFC. We are being asked to make a decision based on a leap of faith that the setup will be in our interests. That is an unacceptable position to be in. We now have fans being asked to commit to a new CIC organisation and structure at SMFC when no detail have been made available. It is shit communication and a shit process. Eh? another BoD???? I don't know you ask for details on how one will work, you hear nothing for over a year and then three come along at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Eh? another BoD???? I don't know you ask for details on how one will work, you hear nothing for over a year and then three come along at once. CIC BoD....that we get to vote on, although I think REA might be on that BoD by default - although that might just be an interim place - hazy on that one with all the changes. SMFC BoD....at the moment we are guaranteed just one place on the SMFC BoD. There is no information on how the rest of the BoD will be formed other than that the non-exec BoD will have at least one member too. SMFC Non-exec BoD....this will be made up of 1877 club members. They will also have representation on the SMFC BoD. It will be made up the 1877 members who going by some of the chinese whispers will not be currently involved in supporting SMFC. That could be wrong again though as it was blah, blah'd in relation to someone's concern about taking investment away from SMFC's current operations. There was no announcement about the non-exec BoD made to people being asked to pay the debt to set up this new structure. It was decided and then tucked away in an ambiguous line item in the offer to the 1877 Club. We should be getting significant information like this presented to us rather having to dig around to get it ourselves through a "Ask 10000 Hours questions bollox". The creation of a non-exec Board is a fairly significant development. So why not announce it. Transparency my arse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 The creation of the non-Exec board is quite clearly explained in the membership brochure that was published last week and in the non-executive membership page on the website; http://www.10000hours.org/nonexecutive There really doesn't seem any way that 10000Hours can win here. Even when the information is there, in black and white, it's still not enough ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 might need to re-visit your thread title Sid? there seems to be a lot of dispute surrounding the undisputed facts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 The creation of the non-Exec board is quite clearly explained in the membership brochure that was published last week and in the non-executive membership page on the website; http://www.10000hours.org/nonexecutive There really doesn't seem any way that 10000Hours can win here. Even when the information is there, in black and white, it's still not enough ! Clearly explained. There's nothing clear about it. Yet again we get a sales document rather than an explanation of how it will actually work. We will be left with a lot of verbal balh, blah from the meeting in June that will be absolutely worthless. Why can't we get a document that actually demonstrates how the CIC / SMFC will actually work rather than people trying to pick out information in amongst all the salesy shite? For a minimum £1.5Million investment by fans + interest an accessible signed document by the 10000 Hours proposers doesn't seem like an unreasonable request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 1. Ask for information. 2. Get given information. 3. Dismiss Information as "salesy shite" 4. Goto Step 1 and repeat as necessary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 might need to re-visit your thread title Sid? there seems to be a lot of dispute surrounding the undisputed facts I think we're still safe with the opneing post.... Fans pay at least a tenner-a-month.......what we get for that is subject to change on a second by second basis and we may or may not be told about it by whoever may or may not be involved in defining the moving goal posts. I remember someone - might have been billyg suggesting the scene of what would happen if 10000 Hours went on the Dragons Den. I suspect they'd still be slabbering shite to four long dead dragon skeletons who gave up the will to live trying to get to the bottom of what it is they are actually offering in return for the investment. At the moment fans will be paying £10-a-month for something that may not be agreed until after the loan based on our commitment is already spent. Only a mug would sign up at this stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 1. Ask for information. 2. Get given information. 3. Dismiss Information as "salesy shite" 4. Goto Step 1 and repeat as necessary That's not information div....its a couple of lines from a sales document. Give us full disclosure on what we are buying into and then we can base our questions on that. You can't ask questions on information that hasn't been provided. If there is no additional information then no one should be investing in this as it is all half baked nonsense. What 10000 Hours appear to be doing is holding back the information until the public meeting so that no one will have time to digest the information and respond accordingly. That is unprofessional bollox at this stage in the process. A process that still hasn't been provided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 The creation of the non-Exec board is quite clearly explained in the membership brochure that was published last week and in the non-executive membership page on the website; http://www.10000hours.org/nonexecutive There really doesn't seem any way that 10000Hours can win here. Even when the information is there, in black and white, it's still not enough ! It looks like you hadn't digested the information from the sales doc either - if it was actually there in the original version. div, on 22 May 2012 - 09:44, said: Don't think you have read or a least understood this John. The non exec tier grants a seat on a non exec board, not the football club board. In the latest version of the document: Along with the CIC they will have representation on the board of the football club and will help ensure the club is run in a fit and proper manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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