Ask 10000Hours On B&w Army - Online All Day Today

[div]

Based on conversations last night and discussions that 10000Hours have had with members and businesses within the local community it is clear that much of the focus on the bid has been on this very forum here on B&W Army.

With that in mind the forum on the 10000Hours website has now been removed and both Richard and Gordon have asked for a single thread to be created here on B&W Army where they will respond online to any questions that are made.

They will both be online all day today so if you want to engage with your own questions and points on their bid then this is the thread to do it in.

The guys on the team will ONLY check this thread so if you want an answer directly from them, this is the place to do it.

Note of course that the 10000Hours FAQ is still online and remains an important resource for checking common questions and answers.

Fire away if your question hasn't already been asked or answered on the FAQ.

[10000hours]

Morning All.

Bring us your questions, lets sort out the Truth from the Fiction

Go for it

[dave.j]

Lads,

Can I ask that you draft up a set of rules for elections, similar to the draft constitution?

There seems to be some sticking points with regards to just who can run for election to the CIC board.

Can you confirm that as is the democratic right of the CIC membership. Upon submitting their CV and election manifesto, they will be able to run for election to the CIC Board.

How long do yourselves on the Steering Committee envisage having to remain on the board. would AGM2013 be a realistic target for you to hand the reigns over completely to the membership?

Will the elections operate simply on running for places on the CIC board. Or will memebers be able to run for specific roles for example Secretary, Club Board Rep, Treasurer?

[div]

Richard, I think it would be good to outline basic finance figures so that everyone understands the model.

Currently we have;

The bid is for £1.5m.

£0.5m is coming from a social investment fund called Big Issue Invest. Repayable at 8% interest over a total period of 8 years.

£261k is projected to come from 87 members of the 87 members club each paying a £3k lump sum

£225k is projected to come from 9 non-executive 1877 members each paying a £25k lump sum

£900k due to be paid on 4th July coming from the above. Leaving £600k still to pay.

How does the business model cover both the capital and interest repayable to BII and also raising the additional £600k due to be paid ?

The member subs of £7.5k per month would raise £90k per annum.

What else is in the business model as additional revenue streams ?

Over what period is the other £600k repayable ?

[dave.j]

With regard to once the Club Board reps are in place and representing the CIC...

Do Club Board members sign a confidentiality agreement?

Do you see this restricting what the Board Reps can report back to CIC Board... And in turn, what the CIC can report back to it's members?

How do you see the CIC Board combating disgruntled members who are unhappy that they don't have full visibilty of the running of the Club. Visibility you infered would be available, last night?

[10000hours]

Lads,

Can I ask that you draft up a set of rules for elections, similar to the draft constitution?

There seems to be some sticking points with regards to just who can run for election to the CIC board.

Can you confirm that as is the democratic right of the CIC membership. Upon submitting their CV and election manifesto, they will be able to run for election to the CIC Board.

How long do yourselves on the Steering Committee envisage having to remain on the board. would AGM2013 be a realistic target for you to hand the reigns over completely to the membership?

Will the elections operate simply on running for places on the CIC board. Or will memebers be able to run for specific roles for example Secretary, Club Board Rep, Treasurer?

Bit of a Chicken and Egg situation as we noted last night.

Here though is the process for the next few weeks re the CIC Interim board which will run to the fist CIC AGM in Nov/Dec THIS YEAR 2012

Any person (right now) who wishes to be considered for the interim board of the CIC for which 3 positions are avaliable should email there name to [email protected].

The club sale is due to go though (if we raise the money) on the 4th of July (Wednesday)

On the monday of that week the 2nd of July we will email all those who have expressed an interest in standing for election to submit a single page of information about themsleves as to why they want to be on the Board and the Skills they would bring if elected.

The CV's would be returned by the 6th and then 14 days notice given to the members of a meeting on the 18th, and all CV's made avaliable to the membership to digest and consider.

At the meeting on the 18th will be a simple first past the post.

By a simple show of hands of those in the meeting the 3 people with the most votes will then be Coopted onto the CIC.

One of the main responsibilties of this group will be to flesh out the proposal for what the full board and the process and any alterations to the Mem and Art that would be taken to the CIC AGM in the NOV/DEC.

Now the complex bit (if you are interested) is that these 3 need to be Coopted onto the CIC board before the first DD is drawn on the 31st July so that they have to stand down at the AGM and submit themsleves to the rules they decide to get the full membership to vote to approve.

It may sound complicated but be ABSOLUTLEY GUARANTEED that no matter what you hear or read the CIC is 100% a One Member One Vote organisation with the Fan in full demmocratic control.

[10000hours]

With regard to once the Club Board reps are in place and representing the CIC...

Do Club Board members sign a confidentiality agreement?

Do you see this restricting what the Board Reps can report back to CIC Board... And in turn, what the CIC can report back to it's members?

How do you see the CIC Board combating disgruntled members who are unhappy that they don't have full visibilty of the running of the Club. Visibility you infered would be available, last night?

Being a Director of any company, Club or CIC beings very specific legal responsibilties regarding confidentiallity etc, personally I see no particular reason why the General Legal responsibilties that come with being a director need to be added to by further agreement.

[dave.j]

Thats all very well, and i appreciate your answer. But it doesn't actually answer the questions i asked.

Thanks

Dave

[10000hours]

Thats all very well, and i appreciate your answer. But it doesn't actually answer the questions i asked.

Thanks

Dave

What none of it?

or which bit do you wnat more detail on?

[dave.j]

What none of it?

or which bit do you wnat more detail on?

Specifically:

Do you see this restricting what the Board Reps can report back to CIC Board... And in turn, what the CIC can report back to it's members?

How do you see the CIC Board combating disgruntled members who are unhappy that they don't have full visibilty of the running of the Club. Visibility you infered would be available, last night?

I'll let you know why i'm asking. When i served on the Jags Trust Board, our fans Rep attended Club Board meetings on a monthly basis. Due to confidentiality he could barely discuss with us on the Trust Board what had been discussed.

Now bearing in mind this was an important time for us, a selection of Thistle Directors had came up with a plan to sell some of the ground to themselves, and our Rep wasn't allowed to report back to the Trust, what had been discussed. He was only allowed to share "approved" parts of the Club meetings.

This reulted in him questioning why he had ran in the first place, now bear in mind, this guy won the election by a land slide, he was the best man to represent the fans, and he took the club out into the community like we had never been before... But, he resigned from his post on the Club Board as he was so bound by red tape, that he couldn't consult with members to ask them, how they wanted represented on certain aspects within the board room...

[Bud the Baker]

GORDON ROBERT LAIDLAW SCOTT, 15,224 ORDINARY GBP 0.50

9 x 1877 Non Executive board members each making £25,000 lump sum payment.

1) Given that GLS has pledged 20 shares to each of the 87 club (1740 shares) members how can he sell 9 blocks of shares to to the 1877 club?

By my reckoning 1877 * 7 = 13139 add in the 1740 mentioned previously and that takes you to 14879 shares - where are the other 2 lots coming from?

2) How many people have pledged to the 87 & 1877 groups?

[10000hours]

Specifically:

Do you see this restricting what the Board Reps can report back to CIC Board... And in turn, what the CIC can report back to it's members?

Both boards would be subject to Dir legal responsibilities re confidentiality i see there being no issue

How do you see the CIC Board combating disgruntled members who are unhappy that they don't have full visibilty of the running of the Club. Visibility you infered would be available, last night?

Frankly everyone will just need to be adult about it if there is something that the board cannot reveal to the members for legal reasons. The basic diff between this and your situtaion is it is not just a "fans rep on the board" which as you rightly point out does not and did not work in your case. The Fans own the club. There are not vested interests on the Club or CIC board who because they view themsleves as being the Shareholders end up treating the Fans rep with Contempt and Secrecy.

No matter what happens the Fans should not settle for a "fans rep on the board" it should be full democratic One Member One vote control

I am for as much openess and transparancy as there can concievable be. If it does not matter if the information is out there then get the info out engage with the fans and the members.

I'll let you know why i'm asking. When i served on the Jags Trust Board, our fans Rep attended Club Board meetings on a monthly basis. Due to confidentiality he could barely discuss with us on the Trust Board what had been discussed.

Now bearing in mind this was an important time for us, a selection of Thistle Directors had came up with a plan to sell some of the ground to themselves, and our Rep wasn't allowed to report back to the Trust, what had been discussed. He was only allowed to share "approved" parts of the Club meetings.

This reulted in him questioning why he had ran in the first place, now bear in mind, this guy won the election by a land slide, he was the best man to represent the fans, and he took the club out into the community like we had never been before... But, he resigned from his post on the Club Board as he was so bound by red tape, that he couldn't consult with members to ask them, how they wanted represented on certain aspects within the board room...

That any better?

[dave.j]

a lot better. Thanks.

[10000hours]

1) Given that GLS has pledged 20 shares to each of the 87 club (1740 shares) members how can he sell 9 blocks of shares to to the 1877 club?

By my reckoning 1877 * 7 = 13139 add in the 1740 mentioned previously and that takes you to 14879 shares - where are the other 2 lots coming from?

2) How many people have pledged to the 87 & 1877 groups?

Basically there are other shareholders who would also put there shares in the CIC pot, and it is not GLS that has pledged the shares to the 87Club it is the CIC which has had GLS shares onboard

This then actually creates a market for the Shares which does not exist at the moment

In all the categries Standard, 87 and 1877 we are about half way.

But it is true to say that both the 87 and the 1877 are all watching to see if the grassroots fan numbers are there before parting with the cash

[10000hours]

a lot better. Thanks.

Your welcome.

And thanks for your closing word last night really great to see how other Clubs Fans see what we are trying to do here as an opportunity they would like replicated at their club.

[Bud the Baker]

Basically there are other shareholders who would also put there shares in the CIC pot, and it is not GLS that has pledged the shares to the 87Club it is the CIC which has had GLS shares onboard

This then actually creates a market for the Shares which does not exist at the moment

In all the categries Standard, 87 and 1877 we are about half way.

But it is true to say that both the 87 and the 1877 are all watching to see if the grassroots fan numbers are there before parting with the cash

That's not what GLS said on the other thread two weeks ago.

According to the brochure the 87 club are now to receive 20 St Mirren FC shares - this would appear to be a new development.

Where are these shares coming from?

They are coming from the shares I am committing to the CIC. In other words not part of the 52% the CIC is purchasing.

So who else has pledged shares to the new Non-Exec Board members and will they become creditors of the CIC too?

[Bud the Baker]

Quote from today's Herald Article

"We've moved on under Danny [Lennon, manager] on the field, but off the field the club hasn't moved on commercially. We've stagnated. That criticism sits with the board"

We have a General Manager & a Commercial Manager who are paid to make sure we don't stagnate off the pitch. Is the real reason we are stagnating off the pitch because we are/were waiting for the CIC to be able to exploit these opportunities?

[band for life]

Richard, at one of the meetings you stated that you personally had enough money to do this deal on your own, and the asking price then was £2M. If you believe that its such a great investment (I do and would snap it up IF I had the cash) why don’t you invest your own money and organise a members fund whereby you could sell shares to smaller investors/supporters on the £10 a month principle?

In other words, whats in it for you? You are not a supporter and as I’m led to believe, not even a football fan. Sorry to sound cynical, but with whats happening up the road I think these questions not only have to be asked, but answered.

[10000hours]

That's not what GLS said on the other thread two weeks ago.

Semantics really, just trying to make the point that we are not dependent on just Gordons shares. Other shareholders have come forward and indicated that if we we to move there shares onto other owners at the same price then they would be happy to get involved

So who else has pledged shares to the new Non-Exec Board members and will they become creditors of the CIC too?

what needs to be understodd about Gordon and anyone elses position is what this Creditor status means, it is not a standard creditor. There debt does not become active until such times as all the Loan debt and outstanding phased payments for the purchase of the club are paid. It is only at that point that if they wish (it is not automatic) that those who have put shares in would start to get the debt paid down so nothing for at least 8years. As Gordon indicated last night he would hope that at that point he could just write it off.

[10000hours]

Quote from today's Herald Article

We have a General Manager & a Commercial Manager who are paid to make sure we don't stagnate off the pitch. Is the real reason we are stagnating off the pitch because we are/were waiting for the CIC to be able to exploit these opportunities?

No.

[10000hours]

Richard, at one of the meetings you stated that you personally had enough money to do this deal on your own, and the asking price then was £2M. If you believe that its such a great investment (I do and would snap it up IF I had the cash) why don’t you invest your own money and organise a members fund whereby you could sell shares to smaller investors/supporters on the £10 a month principle?

In other words, whats in it for you? You are not a supporter and as I’m led to believe, not even a football fan. Sorry to sound cynical, but with whats happening up the road I think these questions not only have to be asked, but answered.

Lets deal with last point first. Do you honestly think I would have put nearly three years worth of work into this as a volunteer as well as sitting on the Board and doing the mountain of work involved there if I was not now a Fan of the Club or liked watching Football.

As for your first point anyone that uses the word "investment" and football wants watched. Investment infers that at some point you get more than what you out in out and the only way to get out more than you put into a Club is to take it out the Club and ergo the Playing Budget. It might be that you (as owner) pay yourself a handsome wage or take a %age of transfer fees to fund your "investment" either way it takes real cash out the real club.

Your suggestion has been looked at seriously, when we lost the first pot of fund of £750,000 we looked at the possiblity of putting private money in to fund the gap. The Lawyers came up with a number of issues in putting such a large %age into a CIC, mainly to do with what is called the "rights of the minorty" and the potential Conflict of Interest that would exist with me sitting on both sides of the equation as both Funder and borrower.

If you want an offline conversation for more detail than I could ever type PM me and we can have a chat and you can report it back online

[band for life]

That was a long answer but not to the question I asked!! Simply put - Whats in it for you? I realise it may be viewed as a cynical (maybe even rude) question, but as stated in my original post, we have seen other "wealthy" individuals "buy" into football clubs and the result has been, frankly, disastrous.

Football is indeed a finacial basket case at the best of times which makes the question even more relevant. Why would a successful businessman want to get involved in a football club? I would because I have been emotionally involved (and thats the worst reason actually) but why would you?

[slapsalmon]

Following on Twitter last night I noticed that the board position available to the 48% will come from the new 1877 tier. Do you think this is a fair representation of the shareholders who have held shares for a number of years?

What will happen if the 1877 club is not taken up in significant numbers?

[Bud the Baker]

what needs to be understodd about Gordon and anyone elses position is what this Creditor status means, it is not a standard creditor. There debt does not become active until such times as all the Loan debt and outstanding phased payments for the purchase of the club are paid. It is only at that point that if they wish (it is not automatic) that those who have put shares in would start to get the debt paid down so nothing for at least 8years. As Gordon indicated last night he would hope that at that point he could just write it off.

Those who have put shares in - a new development since GLS made his initial statement and even as late as last night the was no mention of these others.

Individual subs will repay the £500k borrowing. The 87 club @ £3k will generate £250k, Gordons shares make up the rest.

But there is no guarantee that he and those who have put shares in would just write it off and why go to the trouble of making yourself a creditor if you're just going to write it off at least 8 years later.

What is the maximum liability of the CIC to GLS etc after the initial debt has been paid off at least 8 years down the line?

[10000hours]

That was a long answer but not to the question I asked!! Simply put - Whats in it for you? I realise it may be viewed as a cynical (maybe even rude) question, but as stated in my original post, we have seen other "wealthy" individuals "buy" into football clubs and the result has been, frankly, disastrous.

Football is indeed a finacial basket case at the best of times which makes the question even more relevant. Why would a successful businessman want to get involved in a football club? I would because I have been emotionally involved (and thats the worst reason actually) but why would you?

Whats in it for me? Nothing other than the satisfaction of getting this down and the Fans Governning the Club. After the initial handover period I will have to stand for election just like everyone else if i want to be on the board of either CIC or Club.

That a more clear answer?