The Referendum Thread

[Stuart Dickson]

Whataboutery. Candidates versus members. Can you see the difference yet?

We're already EU citizens. Are they going to take that away from us? No? Didn't think so.

Of course I can see the f**king difference - I've acknowledged that from the first f**king post I made about Montenegro. However the fact remains that the EU showed how they treat this situation by making the country seeking Independence from their political union reapply for membership whilst the legal successor state maintained the status quo. You can deny it all you want, you can even try to claim it's not relevant, but the facts are all there in recent history. It makes little difference that you are EU citizens - the EU has shown that it will take EU Citizenship away from current full eurozone members if they don't comply with their wishes - what makes you think that Scotland would be any more embedded than Greece.

[Stuart Dickson]

There is an assumption that rUK will inherit the UK rights to everything in the event of the Treaty being rescinded. It strikes me there is a very good case to be made that when one becomes two, both are treated the same.

Again - that's simply not true. Serbia became the legal successor to Serbia and Montenegro - a fact recognised by NATO, the EU and by the UN. Montenegro were the state seeking independence and they were forced to re-apply for membership of all three bodies.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Of course I can see the f**king difference - I've acknowledged that from the first f**king post I made about Montenegro. However the fact remains that the EU showed how they treat this situation by making the country seeking Independence from their political union reapply for membership whilst the legal successor state maintained the status quo. You can deny it all you want, you can even try to claim it's not relevant, but the facts are all there in recent history. It makes little difference that you are EU citizens - the EU has shown that it will take EU Citizenship away from current full eurozone members if they don't comply with their wishes - what makes you think that Scotland would be any more embedded than Greece.

So you can see the difference, sorry f**king difference but you still claim that it is the same.

That's bizarre, actually it f**king bizarre, even by your standards.

[Stuart Dickson]

Yes ,l believe that Scotland should be a an independent , sovereign state . Like the Norwegian model and not a Vassal sate. .

We had to gain Devolution before we could get independence , properly on the table , so , independence in Europe could be a stepping stone to full independence. .

Well I reckon Scotland is better remaining in partnership with the rest of the UK but when I was growing up - and a bit of an idealist - I had a similar view of independence as you. I believed that if Scotland gained independence we'd be able to make our own decisions on everything from Income Tax to Interest Rates and from immigration to law making.

Unfortunately that's not the ticket that's being proposed though. The SNP's white paper yesterday claimed that if Scotland became independent from the rest of the UK we'd be able to lower Corporation Tax, reduce Income Tax, grant loads of free child nursery places, scrap the so called Bedroom Tax and give every Scot around £1,500 extra in their pocket every year. Sounds great, except this Independence means that instead of being ruled by Westminster where we are represented by just under 10% of the house, we are going to hand power to Brussels where we are represented by 6 MEP's out of 751 - less than 1%. Even more bizarrely Alex Salmond is proposing to hand over the real decision making power in Scotland to a coalition of the French, German, Italian and UK governments - and these daft natsi's are lapping it up. Oh and just to state the obvious - there's no hope in hell that the SNP could fund all of their pledges without borrowing big time - and we all know that the ECB and the European Commission simply won't tolerate that - especially in light of the way they view other countries with low corporation tax regimes who cannot balance their books.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

Oh and whilst I remember I just wanted to pick up Oaksoft on one of his claims today that the Scottish electoral system was more democratic and less flawed than the UK system. It's just that it strikes me as a very odd claim to make when the Scottish system has allowed a situation where two Independent MSP's are allowed to practice as MSP's, fully paid, with expenses, and are allowed a vote on all Scottish Parliamentary matters despite not having any constituents to represent. Isn't that a deficiency in the Scottish Parliamentary Electoral System? It certainly would never happen in the House of Commons

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The headline in the national press (El Pais) - Rajoy uses Scotland to launch a warning to catalonia.

The Spanish PM is saying nothing new here. In fact he's been saying the same thing regularly for a year or two to threaten catalonia as opposed to Scotland. Doesnt seem to be working...

Our BritNat media (you could never accuse them of being independent ) love to rehash the scare stories but haven't managed to give the same coverage to the EC Secretariat General acknowledging that it is legally possible to negotiate from within the EU before becoming independent.

So nothing new from the spanish PM, certainly not enough to justify the amount of coverage given to it. Still, it keeps deflects from sturgeon destroying "bruiser" carmichael in last nights debate. Cynical?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

FFS dicko - stop making up non facts and scaremongering.

[Stuart Dickson]

FFS dicko - stop making up non facts and scaremongering.

It's not scaremongering at all. That's just the typical natsi sneer when they can't handle the points being put at them. The white paper makes a series of far fetched assumptions, top of those being that NATO and the EU will accept Scotland as full members on Alex Salmonds terms. That being that NATO take Trident and stick it, and that Europe accept them in as members despite Salmond maintaining that Scotland won't be adopting the Euro as our currency.

As I said two days ago I find the idea of a wee speccy wizard flying around on a broomstick chasing a golden snitch more believable than much of the pish Nicola Sturgeon turned out at public expense.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[Guest TPAFKATS]

FFS dicko - stop making up non facts and scaremongering.

It's not scaremongering at all. That's just the typical natsi sneer when they can't handle the points being put at them. The white paper makes a series of far fetched assumptions, top of those being that NATO and the EU will accept Scotland as full members on Alex Salmonds terms. That being that NATO take Trident and stick it, and that Europe accept them in as members despite Salmond maintaining that Scotland won't be adopting the Euro as our currency.

As I said two days ago I find the idea of a wee speccy wizard flying around on a broomstick chasing a golden snitch more believable than much of the pish Nicola Sturgeon turned out at public expense.

...and you're doing it again. At least try and be factual

[Stuart Dickson]

...and you're doing it again. At least try and be factual

I have been, completely, about Serbia and Montenegro - and you've called it scaremongering. It's extremely sad that this is the only tactic the natsis have when challenged.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I have been, completely, about Serbia and Montenegro - and you've called it scaremongering. It's extremely sad that this is the only tactic the natsis have when challenged.

No you haven't. You have stated that those countries are in the same situation with EU as Scotland and UK. Then you admitted that it was different then in the same post said it was the same. Mibees your getting a wee bit dizzy?

In your previous post you've also stated that the white paper states that membership of NATO and EU will be on Salmonds terms. This is not correct.

Either you realise this and are scaremongering or you're an idiot.

A few weeks ago on this thread I posted that we should have a debate based on facts. Seriously, lets try that

Edited November 28, 2013 by TPAFKATS

[saintnextlifetime]

There is an assumption that rUK will inherit the UK rights to everything in the event of the Treaty being rescinded. It strikes me there is a very good case to be made that when one becomes two, both are treated the same.

Sorry Buddie , but I don't understand what rUK is and l can't seem to get it defined elsewhere. .

[Lex]

Rest of the UK.

[saintnextlifetime]

Thanks. .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25035427

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Well that's the Question Time debate from Falkirk over and done with. Carmichael managing to make a bigger twat of himself than I thought possible, however the main fact to emerge must surely be that Eddi Reader is as mad as a bag of cats.

Dimbleby tumbelweed moment at the end when failing miserably to crack a funny about execution of william wallace. Mibees he;'s related to Richard Maddely or Katie Hopkins...

Edited November 29, 2013 by TPAFKATS

[saintnextlifetime]

Well that's the Question Time debate from Falkirk over and done with. Carmichael managing to make a bigger twat of himself than I thought possible, however the main fact to emerge must surely be that Eddi Reader is as mad as a bag of cats.

Dimbleby tumbelweed moment at the end when failing miserably to crack a funny about execution of william wallace. Mibees he;'s related to Richard Maddely or Katie Hopkins...

. .or Roni Ancona. .

[Stuart Dickson]

Well that's the Question Time debate from Falkirk over and done with. Carmichael managing to make a bigger twat of himself than I thought possible, however the main fact to emerge must surely be that Eddi Reader is as mad as a bag of cats.

Dimbleby tumbelweed moment at the end when failing miserably to crack a funny about execution of william wallace. Mibees he;'s related to Richard Maddely or Katie Hopkins...  

The thing that stood out once again to me was how embarrassingly light Scotland is on capable politicians and yet there was Sturgeon again blurting on about her fairytale book which would just as well be titled Wee Daft Nikkis La La Land.

For me Reader being the worst guest was a given. Whoever booked her should be fired. Then it was that lefty twat from the Greens. Sturgeon and Carmichael tied IMO. Curran was OK and yet again the most capable round the table was Annabel Goldie . She communicated well, gave clear answers backed with reason and although she's light on talent compared to Westminster politicians she wiped the floor with the rubbish round the table. Oh and the audience - thick as f**k!

[salmonbuddie]

 

Sorry Buddie , but I don't understand what rUK is and l can't seem to get it defined elsewhere. .

Sorry, mate, didn't realise that's what you were after. As Lex said, rest, or rump or remainder. It's in fairly common usage now and easier than typing the Kingdom of England every time!

[oaksoft]

Of course I can see the f**king difference - I've acknowledged that from the first f**king post I made about Montenegro. However the fact remains that the EU showed how they treat this situation by making the country seeking Independence from their political union reapply for membership whilst the legal successor state maintained the status quo. You can deny it all you want, you can even try to claim it's not relevant, but the facts are all there in recent history. It makes little difference that you are EU citizens - the EU has shown that it will take EU Citizenship away from current full eurozone members if they don't comply with their wishes - what makes you think that Scotland would be any more embedded than Greece.

Oh my God!!! Greece have been expelled from the EU????

Call the police!

Oh hang on. No they weren't.

[oaksoft]

Oh and whilst I remember I just wanted to pick up Oaksoft on one of his claims today that the Scottish electoral system was more democratic and less flawed than the UK system. It's just that it strikes me as a very odd claim to make when the Scottish system has allowed a situation where two Independent MSP's are allowed to practice as MSP's, fully paid, with expenses, and are allowed a vote on all Scottish Parliamentary matters despite not having any constituents to represent. Isn't that a deficiency in the Scottish Parliamentary Electoral System? It certainly would never happen in the House of Commons

It's based on a representative party share of the votes.

It's not ideal but it's a reasonable attempt to fix the problems Westminster sees.

So, yes you are right it wouldn't happen in Westminster which was exactly my point.

[salmonbuddie]

 

Of course I can see the f**king difference - I've acknowledged that from the first f**king post I made about Montenegro. However the fact remains that the EU showed how they treat this situation by making the country seeking Independence from their political union reapply for membership whilst the legal successor state maintained the status quo. You can deny it all you want, you can even try to claim it's not relevant, but the facts are all there in recent history. It makes little difference that you are EU citizens - the EU has shown that it will take EU Citizenship away from current full eurozone members if they don't comply with their wishes - what makes you think that Scotland would be any more embedded than Greece. 

So neither Serbia nor Montenegro are members. Greece was threatened because it refused to comply with economic measures relating to the Euro. We are already a member and not in the Euro. It follows that your comparisons are meaningless.

We're already EU citizens, are they going to take that away from us? No? Didn't think so.

[Stuart Dickson]

Oh my God!!! Greece have been expelled from the EU????

Call the police!

Oh hang on. No they weren't.

No - cause they backed down, accepted the strict terms imposed and scrapped their referendum. Independence in Europe in action....

Edited November 29, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

So neither Serbia nor Montenegro are members. Greece was threatened because it refused to comply with economic measures relating to the Euro. We are already a member and not in the Euro. It follows that your comparisons are meaningless.

We're already EU citizens, are they going to take that away from us? No? Didn't think so.

Scotland would be refusing to comply with strict ECB and EU Commission rules regarding entry criteria for membership of the EU. Sturgeon said last night that post Independence Scotland would start to negotiate with the EU regarding membership. I can't see Angela Merkel et al letting Salmond dictate the terms - can you?

Oh and yes - they could well take that away from you. Ofcourse they could. They were prepared to do it with Greece

[Stuart Dickson]

It's based on a representative party share of the votes.

It's not ideal but it's a reasonable attempt to fix the problems Westminster sees.

So, yes you are right it wouldn't happen in Westminster which was exactly my point.

Yes it was, however the two MSP's in question gained their posts courtesy of the SNP list votes. They subsequently resigned the whip so they are sitting, voting and earning money without any mandate from constituents or any of the electorate.

[saintnextlifetime]

So neither Serbia nor Montenegro are members. Greece was threatened because it refused to comply with economic measures relating to the Euro. We are already a member and not in the Euro. It follows that your comparisons are meaningless.

We're already EU citizens, are they going to take that away from us? No? Didn't think so.

If they did , l could live with that situation. .