Shipbuilding Job Losses.

[Stuart Dickson]

I'm not defending it at all.

I can explain it but I don't agree with it.

As you say, I think our opinions are pretty close on this.

It depresses me to think how good life could be if everyone worked together as equals without so many trying to shaft everyone else for themselves.

I can't imagine what kind of person pays his staff the bare minimum and yet is happy to take home £10 million a year for himself on the backs of their efforts.

I can't imagine what kind of person is so rich he can't spend it all but feels the need to outsource his manufacturing to a cheaper country simply because profits drop by a few percent - chucking all the guys who made that company what it is today straight onto the scrap heap.

I also can't imagine why we consider these people to be gods (Alan Sugar, Dyson etc) when they bleed workers dry, pocket the money from their efforts and then turf them out when a cheaper worker appears.

I'm very glad that I'm not that type of person.

Oh FFS. You only need to look at the old USSR or the old China to see how bad life is if everyone is treated as equals. That really would be a move towards the race to the bottom. Why would anyone risk their own money to innovate if there is no reward? Why would anyone waste 4-6 years of earning potential at university if the end result was that they were to emerge with the same wage as a road sweeper? - ok, ok I know that in the UK system many already do, taking their degrees into shelf filling at their local supermarket, or to a call centre.

The USSR realised the mistake in their philosophy and offered those who did the more important jobs better housing. Then - driven by fear and suspicion of why someone like a nuclear scientist would be happy to work without reward - they would bug those houses and get the KGB to spy on their staff. They even had perennial food shortages as farmers realised there was no reason to invest in new machinery since it wouldn't improve their earning potential.

Socialism sounds fine on paper but it ignores human nature and our desire to aspire. It's an idealistic theology that has failed in every country it's been tried and yet we still get daft dreamers - usually bottom feeders with no ability to reach their aspirations - who call for everyone to be equal. Stupid f**kers!

Edited November 21, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[salmonbuddie]

That's communism, not socialism.

[oaksoft]

That's communism, not socialism.

Thanks. I didn't really want to point that out to him.

[salmonbuddie]

He'll come back in a minute and tell us they're the same.

[oaksoft]

He'll come back in a minute and tell us they're the same.

The phrase he didn't like was "how good life could be if everyone worked together as equals".

He equates that with the worst excesses of Communism.

We can only guess how he squares that with his Better Together philosophy which he's dressing up as an obsessive anti-SNP frothing at the mouth rant.

[salmonbuddie]

"...anti SNP rant..." covers 95% of his posts, you need to be more specific!

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Oh FFS. You only need to look at the old USSR or the old China to see how bad life is if everyone is treated as equals. That really would be a move towards the race to the bottom. Why would anyone risk their own money to innovate if there is no reward? Why would anyone waste 4-6 years of earning potential at university if the end result was that they were to emerge with the same wage as a road sweeper? - ok, ok I know that in the UK system many already do, taking their degrees into shelf filling at their local supermarket, or to a call centre.

The USSR realised the mistake in their philosophy and offered those who did the more important jobs better housing. Then - driven by fear and suspicion of why someone like a nuclear scientist would be happy to work without reward - they would bug those houses and get the KGB to spy on their staff. They even had perennial food shortages as farmers realised there was no reason to invest in new machinery since it wouldn't improve their earning potential.

Socialism sounds fine on paper but it ignores human nature and our desire to aspire. It's an idealistic theology that has failed in every country it's been tried and yet we still get daft dreamers - usually bottom feeders with no ability to reach their aspirations - who call for everyone to be equal. Stupid f**kers!

Graduates earning the same as high school dropouts;

The state spying, on mass, on it's citizens everyday activities;

Perennial food shortages for a large % of the population;

An even higher % of the population unable to heat their homes in winter.

This is the UK in 2013, not the communist USSR.

[Stuart Dickson]

That's communism, not socialism.

No it isn't.

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was a Socialist state governed as a single party state by the Communist Party

If you want an explanation of how the two relate this is a good article written in plain English for the hard of thinking like Oaksoft and Salmonbuddie which explains that many experts believe that the USSR was far removed from Communism in its purist form.

[Stuart Dickson]

Graduates earning the same as high school dropouts;

The state spying, on mass, on it's citizens everyday activities;

Perennial food shortages for a large % of the population;

An even higher % of the population unable to heat their homes in winter.

This is the UK in 2013, not the communist USSR.

Really? Food shortages? I think you need to get out of your bed a bit earlier in the morning Tony - the supermarket shelves looked pretty full the last time I was round there. Indeed on last nights This Week programme they had John Snow talking about how cycling is seen as a solution to the obesity epidemic. Still maybe you are right. I've always thought of Paisley as a Third World kind of place - perhaps round there there's loads of emaciated people wandering round the streets, covered in flies waiting on Bob Geldof to come and rescue them. Or maybe you're talking about your vision of Independent Scotland again.....who knows?

[salmonbuddie]

 

No it isn't. 

 

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was a Socialist state governed as a single party state by the Communist Party 

 

If you want an explanation of how the two relate this is a good article written in plain English for the hard of thinking like Oaksoft and Salmonbuddie which explains that many experts believe that the USSR was far removed from Communism in its purist form. 

Forgive us for using the definition of communism that everyone in the world (except you) understands by the word. For the hard of thinking, socialism, as currently understood in this country (by me , anyway) stands for four basic things. Everyone gets free education, everyone gets free healthcare, everyone gets access to housing and no-one has to use food banks.

You have heard of the growing number of food banks, StuD, haven't you? That's what oaksoft was referring to in his post. Believe it or not, some people are unable to adequately feed themselves while others, obscenely, are gorging themselves.

[Stuart Dickson]

Forgive us for using the definition of communism that everyone in the world (except you) understands by the word. For the hard of thinking, socialism, as currently understood in this country (by me , anyway) stands for four basic things. Everyone gets free education, everyone gets free healthcare, everyone gets access to housing and no-one has to use food banks.

You have heard of the growing number of food banks, StuD, haven't you? That's what oaksoft was referring to in his post. Believe it or not, some people are unable to adequately feed themselves while others, obscenely, are gorging themselves.

So not a food shortage then - more a shortage in ability to manage home finances. Poor victims of a state funded education system. By the way you know there is no such thing a free education and a free healthcare system. Everyone of us pays a great deal of money for these failing services

Edited November 22, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[salmonbuddie]

So not a food shortage then - more a shortage in ability to manage home finances. Poor victims of a state funded education system. By the way you know there is no such thing a free education and a free healthcare system. Everyone of us pays a great deal of money for these failing services

No, a shortage in the amount of money required to put an adequate food supply on the table. Many, many people face harsh choices between heating their home and eating properly. But you've already demonstrated your complete lack of empathy for anyone worse off than yourself, I'm not going to waste any more time on that.

Some of us pay more than others for the services so that they are free to all at the point of supply. Like it or not (we know you don't, be need for the voucher pish again), that's a starter for ten for socialism.

Edited November 22, 2013 by salmonbuddie

[oaksoft]

So not a food shortage then - more a shortage in ability to manage home finances.

This is just pure arrogance and the initial impression is that you've never experienced the dole or low paid work.

That implies ignorance of the situation of over a million UK families who can't feed their kids.

BUT you are so ludicrously over the top here that I actually suspect you are either one of them or have been one of them and you are using the time honoured technique of blasting those you are most closely associated with in order to distance yourself from them.

This is the reason why the most anti-smoking people are ex-smokers, the most anti-gay people turn out to be gay themselves etc.

Here's a wee challenge for you.

Let me give you an imaginary salary of £13k.

Show me how you'd budget for one month for a family of four on this salary.

Let's see how the great financial wizard can show survival on that salary (which BTW is roughly a full time wage on the National Minimum Wage which you say is way too high).

There are a million families out there apparently unable to do basic maths in your eyes.

This is your chance to lead and to teach.

Edited November 22, 2013 by oaksoft

[Stuart Dickson]

This is just pure arrogance and the initial impression is that you've never experienced the dole or low paid work.

That implies ignorance of the situation of over a million UK families who can't feed their kids.

BUT you are so ludicrously over the top here that I actually suspect you are either one of them or have been one of them and you are using the time honoured technique of blasting those you are most closely associated with in order to distance yourself from them.

This is the reason why the most anti-smoking people are ex-smokers, the most anti-gay people turn out to be gay themselves etc.

Here's a wee challenge for you.

Let me give you an imaginary salary of £13k.

Show me how you'd budget for one month for a family of four on this salary.

Let's see how the great financial wizard can show survival on that salary (which BTW is roughly a full time wage on the National Minimum Wage which you say is way too high).

There are a million families out there apparently unable to do basic maths in your eyes.

This is your chance to lead and to teach.

Oaksoft I've lived off a shopping budget of just £7 per week back in my days as an apprentice after I bought my first home. Stupidly I refused to give up watching St Mirren back then and still went to matches home and away whilst wrestling with bills and a need to furnish my house but I survived anyway usually on a loaf of bread, a bag of pasta, butter, twelve eggs, a block of cheese and any tomatoes, basil, thyme and watercress that I could grow myself off plants that my Dad gave me. Beans on toast, toast and cheese, omelettes, french toast etc were pretty much my staples but I managed. That situation was down to poor financial management on my part and I learned a great deal about myself back then and it's been one of the main drivers towards getting me to where I am today, debt free and with a good income able to enjoy fantastic holidays - this year even spending a few nights in what Travel + Leisure Magazine says is the fourth best hotel in the world.

Now in your example I don't believe you are painting the full picture. After all you fail to mention that the family quoted will have child benefit coming in for both children. To that would be added an Child Tax Credit boosting their income further still. Most likely the family will be living rent free in a council owned property with no council tax to pay, and they'll be enjoying a range of further benefits like free dental care, free school dinners etc, etc. If they are managing their money correctly they will have plenty more than £7 per person per week to keep themselves going. Christ Nigel Slater this week showed how you can make a pretty excellent lasagne from scratch for £1 per portion. Sure it meant having to make 27 individual portions at one time but freezer technology these days is excellent. That would be a full week worth of dinners for your family for £27.00 leaving them £223 per week of their budget to buy breakfast cerial etc

[oaksoft]

Now in your example I don't believe you are painting the full picture. After all you fail to mention that the family quoted will have child benefit coming in for both children. To that would be added an Child Tax Credit boosting their income further still. Most likely the family will be living rent free in a council owned property with no council tax to pay, and they'll be enjoying a range of further benefits like free dental care, free school dinners etc, etc. If they are managing their money correctly they will have plenty more than £7 per person per week to keep themselves going. Christ Nigel Slater this week showed how you can make a pretty excellent lasagne from scratch for £1 per portion. Sure it meant having to make 27 individual portions at one time but freezer technology these days is excellent. That would be a full week worth of dinners for your family for £27.00 leaving them £223 per week of their budget to buy breakfast cerial etc

I deliberately left those benefits out because I wanted to additionally show you that without them people weren't capable of surviving.

Anyway, you are saying people shouldn't have free dental care, free school meals, council tax reductions or tax credits so you can't suddenly rely on those.

Now unless you are saying that a council house is essential for someone in this situation to survive show me your monthly budget including private housing rent.

Let's see your figures with and without those benefits and without a council house.

A wee hint. Your £27 a week doesn't include washing up liquid, toilet roll, or any of the other range of non-food essentials. You may need to up your estimates.

Edited November 22, 2013 by oaksoft

[Stuart Dickson]

I deliberately left those benefits out because I wanted to additionally show you that without them people weren't capable of surviving.

Anyway, you are saying people shouldn't have free dental care, free school meals, council tax reductions or tax credits so you can't suddenly rely on those.

Now unless you are saying that a council house is essential for someone in this situation to survive show me your monthly budget including private housing rent.

Let's see your figures with and without those benefits and without a council house.

Theres too many variables Oaksoft - how much is their mortgage or private rent? And why is only one parent working? What's the second one doing all day? Are they incapable of work?

[oaksoft]

Theres too many variables Oaksoft - how much is their mortgage or private rent? And why is only one parent working? What's the second one doing all day? Are they incapable of work?

Too many variables my arse. Where did I say only one was working?

I've given you their joint income. Let's see your budget.

You can assume either renting or mortgage but the renting has to be private because there's no council housing for anyone on this salary.

I'm a fair man - just rough figures will do.

Let's say £600 a month rent for a 2 bed flat.

Assume they don't have a mortgage (many on that salary won't).

Edited November 22, 2013 by oaksoft

[Stuart Dickson]

Too many variables my arse. Where did I say only one was working?

I've given you their joint income. Let's see your budget.

You can assume either renting or mortgage but the renting has to be private because there's no council housing for anyone on this salary.

I'm a fair man - just rough figures will do.

Let's say £600 a month rent for a 2 bed flat.

Assume they don't have a mortgage (many on that salary won't).

Have you done away with the national minimum wage then? Not that I'd argue with that but by my reckoning if both parents are in full time work that;s an income of £22,968.40 in the family. Then - since we are working on my ideology where there is no welfare, no state funded NHS and no state education we're now talking about a family income of around £50,000 per annum of which - assuming both kids attend a private school like Hamilton College - £13,272 would be needed to pay for the kids education. This leaves £3060.66 per month for household bills.

Assuming that the rest of your figures are right

£600 rent

£180ish council tax

£150ish energy

£200 for travel back and forward to work and school

£50 per month for insurances.

I reckon they've still got £434 per week left over to pay for things like clothes, food, etc, etc. That looks like plenty to me.

[oaksoft]

Have you done away with the national minimum wage then? Not that I'd argue with that but by my reckoning if both parents are in full time work that;s an income of £22,968.40 in the family. Then - since we are working on my ideology where there is no welfare, no state funded NHS and no state education we're now talking about a family income of around £50,000 per annum of which - assuming both kids attend a private school like Hamilton College - £13,272 would be needed to pay for the kids education. This leaves £3060.66 per month for household bills.

Assuming that the rest of your figures are right

£600 rent

£180ish council tax

£150ish energy

£200 for travel back and forward to work and school

£50 per month for insurances.

I reckon they've still got £434 per week left over to pay for things like clothes, food, etc, etc. That looks like plenty to me.

Never mind your fantasy £50k per year - let's deal with the reality.

There are plenty of families living on £13k per year where both parents are working part time - because it's all they can get.

Ignoring tax and national insurance contributions, £13k per year is £1083 per month.

Your total so far comes to £1180 per month so straight away they are £100 a month short before they've bought any food.

You also haven't included savings or pension contributions thereby condemning them to an entire life of poverty! You also haven't explained how they pay when things like washing machines break down. You assume they can take public transport to work which may not be possible. If it's not possible they'll need a car. You'd need to add an amount for tax, MOT's servicing and breakdown cover and also an amount for unplanned breakdowns.

Finally you'd haven't explained how they'd buy clothes for their kids as they were growing up. Where would the money for that come from?

In short, you really haven't thought through how bad life can be for many people. Either that or you genuinely don't care.

I reckon you'd need a minimum of around £21k from all income sources to have a reasonable life with a family of four.

At the moment there are over a million people living on substantially less than that.

Edited November 22, 2013 by oaksoft

[Dweezboy]

 

 

Have you done away with the national minimum wage then? Not that I'd argue with that but by my reckoning if both parents are in full time work that;s an income of £22,968.40 in the family. Then - since we are working on my ideology where there is no welfare, no state funded NHS and no state education we're now talking about a family income of around £50,000 per annum of which - assuming both kids attend a private school like Hamilton College - £13,272 would be needed to pay for the kids education. This leaves £3060.66 per month for household bills. 

 

Assuming that the rest of your figures are right 

£600 rent

£180ish council tax

£150ish energy

£200 for travel back and forward to work and school

£50 per month for insurances. 

 

I reckon they've still got £434 per week left over to pay for things like clothes, food, etc, etc. That looks like plenty to me. 

Seriously mate you need to get your hole. You spout some amount of pish and come across as a Walter Mitty type. I imagine your a fat, bald, unemployed keyboard warrior that gets a boner writing this pish and getting people to bite.

If you are genuine then your even sadder than the above persona that you portrait.

[Drew]

I imagine your a fat, bald, unemployed keyboard warrior

3 out of 4 ain't bad, J.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Forgive us for using the definition of communism that everyone in the world (except you) understands by the word. For the hard of thinking, socialism, as currently understood in this country (by me , anyway) stands for four basic things. Everyone gets free education, everyone gets free healthcare, everyone gets access to housing and no-one has to use food banks.

You have heard of the growing number of food banks, StuD, haven't you? That's what oaksoft was referring to in his post. Believe it or not, some people are unable to adequately feed themselves while others, obscenely, are gorging themselves.

Hey! that was me, but thanks anyway for saving me the trouble of responding to thicko dicko

[salmonbuddie]

Hey! that was me, but thanks anyway for saving me the trouble of responding to thicko dicko

Apologies, ts, there are so many of us who are wrong that it's very easy to lose track of who said what.....

[bluto]

Apologies, ts, there are so many of us who are wrong that it's very easy to lose track of who said what.....

The REAL problem is...

...that a series of you are keeping him content by responding to his mince.

THAT... is where you are all going wrong. You never learn.

How many threads is he currently running? Threads which have degenerated basically into the same subject? Him.

He loves the attention.

Edited November 22, 2013 by bluto

[salmonbuddie]

True. But sometimes you can't help yourself....