Better Together - No You Can't Join The Eu - Eu Yes You Can Join

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Show me evidence of Scotland being considered a "Nation" by the EU. The term "nation" is meaningless anyway in the EU context as you rightly point out. What matters is that Scotland is not a member state and never has been. Just as Catalonia never has been a member state, or Bavaria.

Whilst you're at it have you still not been able to find the quotes where Better Together claim that Scotland wouldn't get into the EU? Will you accept your error?

My post didn't say that the EU considered Scotland a nation. That was quite clear.

However, should Scotland vote democratically and peacefully in a referendum arranged by the member state (uk), the EU WILL recognise Scotland as a nation, country, state. That is obvious.

We scots are citizens of EU and aren't leaving anytime soon, but it's all going round in circles now isn't it. Just like that other thread.

[glenburn ed]

In short I don't like the way Westminster ( is ) - ( going ) to run the country. Lets be honest its another Tory party that will be voted in 2015.If you are comfortable with 29% poverty in Scotland alone. The illegal wars and nuclear base in your neighbour hood fine vote NO.Me I'm going to trust us to govern ourselves looking after our own interests for local people.Of course religion has nothing to do with anything the same with colour. But make no mistake the labour leader comes from a private education and privileged back ground.

You seem to be Mystic Meg now,I don't think it will be a Tory government, but that is one of the scare stories the NATS bring up. I don't want anybody to be in poverty and not just Scottish people, Who is this US that you trust to govern us, You don't want nuclear weapons here,but your happy to be part of a nuclear alliance NATO. And you are running scared that you called Milliband a Jew, but now you are saying religion has nothing to do with anything well why mention it, remember YOU brought it up.

[civilsaint]

We scots are citizens of EU and aren't leaving anytime soon, but it's all going round in circles now isn't it. Just like that other thread.

If we vote to leave an EU member state we are voting to leave the EU. Only then can an application for membership be considered, an application from the outside.

As for going round in circles, if you and our Bute buddy simply accepted your allegations were incorrect, this thread would be over. Instead you are happy to stand by the false allegations.

[northendsaint]

You seem to be Mystic Meg now,I don't think it will be a Tory government, but that is one of the scare stories the NATS bring up. I don't want anybody to be in poverty and not just Scottish people, Who is this US that you trust to govern us, You don't want nuclear weapons here,but your happy to be part of a nuclear alliance NATO. And you are running scared that you called Milliband a Jew, but now you are saying religion has nothing to do with anything well why mention it, remember YOU brought it up.

What i do know is that Ed Milliband cant be a St Mirren fan if song folklore is anything to go by.Seriously though the tories will win the next election as the old labour ,new labour Scottish labour are obviously not better together and the trade unions are as weak as water.Hardly the recipe for a change in government.

[glenburn ed]

What i do know is that Ed Milliband cant be a St Mirren fan if song folklore is anything to go by.Seriously though the tories will win the next election as the old labour ,new labour Scottish labour are obviously not better together and the trade unions are as weak as water.Hardly the recipe for a change in government.

No they won't

[glenburn ed]

No they won't

[civilsaint]

So by what you wrote, we can't apply whilst still being EU citizens.

We will be EU citizens as long as we are part of an EU member state. Scotland cannot apply from within (otherwise to point out the bleeding obvious there would be no need to apply).

If we vote YES, Scotland will become independent in March 2016. Hugely overwhelming expert opinion tells us that Scotland will not be a member of the EU by this time. Therefore, Scotland's application will be complete from outside the EU.

[Stuart Dickson]

28 member states. Scotland is a nation, part of one of the member states, the uk.

Similar to Catalonia or to Basque in Spain?

[Stuart Dickson]

In short I don't like the way Westminster ( is ) - ( going ) to run the country. Lets be honest its another Tory party that will be voted in 2015.

If you are comfortable with 29% poverty in Scotland alone. The illegal wars and nuclear base in your neighbour hood fine vote NO.

Me I'm going to trust us to govern ourselves looking after our own interests for local people.

Of course religion has nothing to do with anything the same with colour. But make no mistake the labour leader comes from a private education and privileged back ground.

You do know how poverty is defined in the UK don't you? It's not about being too poor to buy dinner, or too poor to buy a school uniform. The definition is that it is the number of households below average earnings. In other words even if the average household income was rated at £1m per annum then any household earning less that that would be below the poverty line. And because it's an average figure, then by definition there will ALWAYS be a group below the poverty line.

29% of households in Scotland below the poverty line doesn't mean emaciated children wandering 20 miles a day to collect clean water, sleeping under the stars without a blanket to keep them warm. It means not being able to afford the full Sky TV package, enough dog food for four dogs, and having to save for a couple of weeks to buy the latest Samsung 42" Smart TV.

[Stuart Dickson]

http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/uk-poverty-line

[Stuart Dickson]

Exactly.

Its not just those below the average, its those that have a wage of less than 60% of the average that you claimed originally.

The point still remains the same - as a wealthy country when average earnings are relatively high - the word "poverty" is being over used here. We know that many of these families who are below the "poverty" line can still afford cars, foreign holidays, Sky TV, and games consoles. And that those who supposedly struggle financially generally do so because they've borrowed money to get these luxuries now, rather than waiting until they'd accumulated enough to pay outright.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The point still remains the same - as a wealthy country when average earnings are relatively high - the word "poverty" is being over used here. We know that many of these families who are below the "poverty" line can still afford cars, foreign holidays, Sky TV, and games consoles. And that those who supposedly struggle financially generally do so because they've borrowed money to get these luxuries now, rather than waiting until they'd accumulated enough to pay outright.

"We know this"

Despite any recognised parameters or scoring system...

This must be of great consolation to those who need to use foodbanks.

Edited July 27, 2014 by TPAFKATS

[Katie Bear]

You do know how poverty is defined in the UK don't you? ... The definition is that it is the number of households below average earnings.

http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/uk-poverty-line

This survey sets the poverty line in the UK at 60 per cent of the median UK household income. In other words, if a household’s income is less than 60 per cent of this average, HBAI considers them to be living in poverty.

Well played Sir ....did you know Hearts won the League Cup in 2013...here's a link

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21732267

[Stuart Dickson]

The UK has the 5th highest average earning figure in the world - according to the ILO. 60% of that average figure is hardly the kind of poverty that relates to the likes of Pakistan, many of the African states, or to India. Indeed if you use the average figures quoted the UK poverty line sits around the £1,200 per month mark and amongst our "poor" obesity is much more of a problem than emaciation.

It's hardly a surprise though that the Natsi's choose to focus on one small mistake in my post and again ignore the point being made. That's been a regular tactic of their whole campaign.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Average anything will be affected by the extreme figures. For example, the number of millionaire footballers and bankers in the uk will increase the average earnings figures even though there might only be a total of a couple of thousand.

Obesity - many poor people are obese not from eating too much but from eating cheap food that is high in fat and low in nutrients.

Fat bawbags on here shouldn't judge everyone's obesity by their own dietary habits.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Can't recall the exact number of rows of seats removed but I think it's between 8 & 14 to accommodate the running track.

Too many seats to lose I think, esp when capacity isn't huge anyway.

[Stuart Dickson]

What's the cost of living in these other places compared to the UK? I can't be bothered to check, I'll just wait for you to post a link to something that disproves your argument.

Your "one small mistake" was 40% ffs. Would you think it was a small mistake if you were suddenly only paid 60% of your salary? Yeah, we know, you'd still be on a million pounds a month ... blah, blah blah.

Anyway, what the f**k's all this got to do with whether or not iScotland would get into the EU ... get back on topic.

Let me just highlight again - The UK has the 5th highest average earning figure in the world

The cost of living in India is unquestionably lower than the cost of living in the UK, but you tell me how many people do we have in the UK who's living conditions look like this

http://www.walkthroughindia.com/lifestyle/major-slum-areas-in-top-indian-cities/

And before you say it I know the second image down looks like the good part of Paisley.....

Edited July 29, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Big_Mougie]

Would poverty not be better classed by the amount of people having to use foodbanks???? Which is on the increase week by week.

[Stuart Dickson]

Would poverty not be better classed by the amount of people having to use foodbanks???? Which is on the increase week by week.

You would also need to look at why they were having to use food banks. Is it because they are being sanctioned for failing to meet the conditions of their benefit payments? Is it because they are servicing debt levels that they accrued buying the latest large screen Samsung Smart TV or the latest xBox One games console? Or is it because the minimum wage, and state benefit system means that people have too little money to live?

I'd wager that in most cases it would be one of the first two reasons and not the third. Certainly the Trussell Trust thinks 83% of those using foodbanks are doing so as a direct result of sanctions

Edited July 29, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Big_Mougie]

Capacity was reduced IIRC to 44,000 which given the increase in ticket prices the SFA will struggle to fill for all but the big games.

Even the big games these days are mid week.

Putting the capacity aside - the question that needs answering is whether a FIFA pitch can fit within the boundary of the athletics arena. That is where I think these athletic commentators have not thought the idea through.

The stadium has an all seated capacity of 52,063. The field of play has raised the previous pitch

by 1.9 metres and removed the front seven rows of seating, reducing the spectator capacity to 44,276 with 38,165 seats being allocated to spectators.

The track is being removed after the games and will be installed at Crownpoint Sports Centre in the East End of Glasgow.

Dont know if they could fit the pitch in the middle of the track.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Big_Mougie

[Big_Mougie]

You would also need to look at why they were having to use food banks. Is it because they are being sanctioned for failing to meet the conditions of their benefit payments? Is it because they are servicing debt levels that they accrued buying the latest large screen Samsung Smart TV or the latest xBox One games console? Or is it because the minimum wage, and state benefit system means that people have too little money to live?

I'd wager that in most cases it would be one of the first two reasons and not the third. Certainly the Trussell Trust thinks 83% of those using foodbanks are doing so as a direct result of sanctions

Stuart have you ever visited a food bank or spoke with anyone who volunteers at a foodbank??? Probably not by that response. I think you would be quite suprised by the people who use it and the reasons why the use it. But its all good sitting there judging people who use them rather than finding out for yourself.

[Stuart Dickson]

Stuart have you ever visited a food bank or spoke with anyone who volunteers at a foodbank??? Probably not by that response. I think you would be quite suprised by the people who use it and the reasons why the use it. But its all good sitting there judging people who use them rather than finding out for yourself.

Nah, never been near one. I think it would look a bit strange if I turned up at one to harass users asking them questions about how they landed up needing a charity handout. However you would think that the Trussell Trust - who quoted the 83% figure in a Guardian news article - should be a good enough source since they run a hell of a lot of them.

[Vambo57]

This is pish.

Look Vambo do you - since you quoted it - or the writer, know for certain that an Independent Scotland could afford to deliver all of those things? How would we fund a more generous welfare state? How would we fund paying pensioners more? Or putting more money into healthcare or education? How would we change taxation to stop the widening of wealth inequality? And how would that sit with Alex Salmonds promises to the likes of Amazon who currently receive large Scottish Government grants despite not paying Corporation Tax in the UK? If we lose interest in aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons, what plans does an Independent Scotland have to ensure all of those made redundant find new employment at similar rates of pay? And what happens to the ship building industry that has been utterly reliant on UK Government orders to keep our yards open?

Sleepwalking into this referendum dreaming that somehow a Scotland on it's own will resolve every single one of those issues whilst protecting our current living standards, without demanding proof from the Yes Campaign seems like an utter folly to me. Even more so since if we vote Yes it will be irreversible.

I am sure we will find out the answers to all your questions after the Scottish electorate have their say in the first ever Scottish General Election!

With such confusion and uncertainty surrounding this and other major issues, it's no wonder the Scottish people are voting no.

You are certainly a little confused mate! Premature miscalculation?

The best 'poll' I have seen - certainly for the size of the sample - is the number of Facebook 'Likes' for the opposing campaigns Facebook page:

Better Together 155,934

Yes Scotland 203,523

You know, the more you folk TELL us that the people of Scotland will vote No, the more desperate you sound.... and you may just turn some more undecided voters to vote YES... Keep up the good work!

[Vambo57]

Edited July 30, 2014 by Vambo57

[Vambo57]

Serious question...

if Scotland was already an Independent country and we had a referendum to join the rest of the UK, how woulld you vote?

Yes or no only please, no diatribes!