Better Together - No You Can't Join The Eu - Eu Yes You Can Join

[Big_Mougie]

Nah, never been near one. I think it would look a bit strange if I turned up at one to harass users asking them questions about how they landed up needing a charity handout. However you would think that the Trussell Trust - who quoted the 83% figure in a Guardian news article - should be a good enough source since they run a hell of a lot of them.

Well I have only due to a friend who helps out at one. Gave her a lift one day and helped her in with a few things and ended up staying for an hour or so and helping out. Yes quite a lot of them are there due to sanctions on their benefits but there is a whole other range of reasons and tbh I don't think the latest flat screen TV or new ps4 or Xbox was one of them. Obviously I wasn't questioning these people but my friend who knows them a lot better filled me in on some of their stories and reasons.

Not only that my mum also works in a school in the north of Glasgow as a special needs auxiliary. She told me that at least 20% of the kids come to school without having any breakfast and they are now feeding them. All of this is believed to be down to the family's having little or no money.

Now I by no means agree with people who rip the system off but surely people and kids in this day and age shouldn't be living like this.

I take it you agree with the governments sanctions on benefits (or scroungers as some would call them)??

Cause if you ask me an MP who earns just under 70k (excluding expenses) claims £40 for their lunch is more of a scrounger than someone on benefits trying to feed their family.

No coincidence that the top 5% have seen their wealth increase dramatically since 2009 due to Westminsters political choices. UK government chose to let the banks run themselves (into the ground) then chose to bail them out using taxpayers money and in the process decided not to prosecute any senior bankers. They also chose to reduce taxation for the rich and big business.

Surely it would have been more worthwhile pursuing the above rather than people who are already struggling to make ends meet.

Fortunately I don't need to use food banks and have never claimed a single penny in benefits in my life (luckily I've been employed since the day I left school and have been in continuous employment since) I now have a reasonably well paid job but this decision isn't all about me. When I look around at friends and family's struggling due to decisions made miles away (mainly for the benefit of London and the S.E of England), I think to myself surely there is a better way if doing this.

One interesting point an English friend made (yes I have English friends as because I'm voting yes doesn't mean I'm a racist and hate English people) was that if they were given the same vote to get away from Westminster and it's London based policies they would bite your hand off for it. That I thought was pretty telling.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Big_Mougie

[Big_Mougie]

Serious question...

if Scotland was already an Independent country and we had a referendum to join the rest of the UK, how woulld you vote?

Yes or no only please, no diatribes!

Hard one cause it would depend on the decisions previously made by the Scottish government during the time you had been independent if you know what I mean. Better question would be what would we gain from joining the UK and what would we lose?

However if we were starting up as a brand new country and someone asked would you like you own government or would you like to be controlled by another country's (and based miles away) who will take your money and give you back some to play with then I think you know what most peoples answer would be.

Feck right off.

[Stuart Dickson]

Well I have only due to a friend who helps out at one. Gave her a lift one day and helped her in with a few things and ended up staying for an hour or so and helping out. Yes quite a lot of them are there due to sanctions on their benefits but there is a whole other range of reasons and tbh I don't think the latest flat screen TV or new ps4 or Xbox was one of them. Obviously I wasn't questioning these people but my friend who knows them a lot better filled me in on some of their stories and reasons.

Not only that my mum also works in a school in the north of Glasgow as a special needs auxiliary. She told me that at least 20% of the kids come to school without having any breakfast and they are now feeding them. All of this is believed to be down to the family's having little or no money.

Now I by no means agree with people who rip the system off but surely people and kids in this day and age shouldn't be living like this.

I take it you agree with the governments sanctions on benefits (or scroungers as some would call them)??

Cause if you ask me an MP who earns just under 70k (excluding expenses) claims £40 for their lunch is more of a scrounger than someone on benefits trying to feed their family.

No coincidence that the top 5% have seen their wealth increase dramatically since 2009 due to Westminsters political choices. UK government chose to let the banks run themselves (into the ground) then chose to bail them out using taxpayers money and in the process decided not to prosecute any senior bankers. They also chose to reduce taxation for the rich and big business.

Surely it would have been more worthwhile pursuing the above rather than people who are already struggling to make ends meet.

Fortunately I don't need to use food banks and have never claimed a single penny in benefits in my life (luckily I've been employed since the day I left school and have been in continuous employment since) I now have a reasonably well paid job but this decision isn't all about me. When I look around at friends and family's struggling due to decisions made miles away (mainly for the benefit of London and the S.E of England), I think to myself surely there is a better way if doing this.

One interesting point an English friend made (yes I have English friends as because I'm voting yes doesn't mean I'm a racist and hate English people) was that if they were given the same vote to get away from Westminster and it's London based policies they would bite your hand off for it. That I thought was pretty telling.

The deflection argument now Moogie?

Is it really unreasonable to go after people who are breaking the law by claiming benefits they aren't entitled to? Is it really unreasonable to impose sanctions on benefit claimants who refuse to attempt to find work? Is it really wrong to sanction those who are too lazy to get out of their bed to sign on? Of course it's not. If I don't turn up for work I don't get paid so why should someone who doesn't work be allowed to miss their signing on appointment cause they can't get their head off the pillow?

It really isn't the case that the government is targeting welfare claimants only. They have been even more successful in recovering huge amounts of tax from tax avoidance schemes and we all know this because amongst other things there's been many high profile cases involving some of the biggest, most wealthy celebrities in the UK who are now paying off huge tax bills recovered by HMRC.

This is the right approach to take. Tackle wrongdoing wherever it is happening. The idea that we go soft on benefit claimants is frankly absurd.

[salmonbuddie]

It's all about sums, StuD, not your strong point - go for the easy small amounts (benefits swindlers) or tackle the huge amounts (big business, tax avoidance and corporate lawyers). I know where I'd like the effort to go. And which would be of more benefit to the taxpayer (and thereby to society in general). But that wouldn't get the populist vote and would hurt Tories (red & blue & yellow) and their pals in the pocket.

ETA - time to amalgamate, mods, StuD's work here is done.

Edited July 30, 2014 by salmonbuddie

[Big_Mougie]

Deflection from what??? Lost me there.

Did I not say that I don't agree with people who rip the system off. And quite rightly should be chased for the money. However when you see the effect these sanctions have first hand on the genuine people then I think they are putting far more effort into targeting the wrong people (the easy target).

For example around 7 years ago a mates dad who had work all his life firstly as a butcher (which he owned) and latterly within a homeless hostel within the city centre took seriously ill. Now at the time it was touch and go and once he got slightly better he was advised that he would never walk again and also his eyesight deteriorated significantly.

Now thankfully he was a fighter and he can now shuffle around with a pair of crutches however he has had his money cut as they are now classing him as mobile. Trust me if you saw him you would realise that he is anything but mobile. He must have to take 20 odd tablets a day to ease the pain and assist. Now he has said he would love to work again as he gets bored stupid sitting about the house all day however this is not practical due to his condition would you not agree??

Well they were wanting to try and get him back into work. They say he could do an office job working at a computer. Fair enough he's not on his feet you think. Well how would he get there, what about the fact that his eyesight is shot to pieces and would struggle staring at a computer screen all day not to mention what chance has he got of anyone employing him but hey if he's not making an effort to find work we'll just further cut his money.

Not right in my opinion. Yes target the lazy bastards who haven't worked a day in their life but a common sense approach needs to be used.

And as for the big companies who dodge tax, the bankers who are still getting massive bonuses, the MP's who are still claiming expenses (for things that joe public has to pay for out our own pay) IMO theres more money to be pulled back there than the extra £20 a month that wee mrs smith had been claiming.

Don't get me wrong I'm under illusion that some of these things may still happen under a Scottish government but at least it will be someone me, my friends, family and neighbours have voted in. As I don't know one person who voted for the current government yet that's what we're lumped with.

This is my last post on the matter cause all of this is pointless the only thing that counts is where we decide to put our vote come September 18th. Going round in circles on a st.mirren forum isn't going to change anything.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Big_Mougie

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Benefit fraud accounts for less than 1% of the benefit or welfare budget

[salmonbuddie]

Precisely the point I was making, ts. Makes a great headline for the Daily Mail tho....

Edited July 30, 2014 by salmonbuddie

[salmonbuddie]

And sod all to do with Scotland getting into/never leaving the EU.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Mr Dickson when through a period trying to rip the pish out of St Mirren. This is his agenda also on Independence. He is not talking from the heart he is talking like some pompous out of touch Tory on Question Time yet he is a pipe fitter from west Scotland. He is taking the piss guy's.

[Stuart Dickson]

It's all about sums, StuD, not your strong point - go for the easy small amounts (benefits swindlers) or tackle the huge amounts (big business, tax avoidance and corporate lawyers). I know where I'd like the effort to go. And which would be of more benefit to the taxpayer (and thereby to society in general). But that wouldn't get the populist vote and would hurt Tories (red & blue & yellow) and their pals in the pocket.

ETA - time to amalgamate, mods, StuD's work here is done.

As I've pointed out the UK Government - the Conservative and Lib Dem coalition - have launched a crackdown on tax avoidance which will recoup £9Bn in total. Everyone has seen the effects of this with cases like the Gary Barlow one that have come to light. Tackling wrongdoing wherever it's found and putting the squeeze on all cheats is exactly what a government should be doing.

[Stuart Dickson]

Deflection from what??? Lost me there.

Did I not say that I don't agree with people who rip the system off. And quite rightly should be chased for the money. However when you see the effect these sanctions have first hand on the genuine people then I think they are putting far more effort into targeting the wrong people (the easy target).

For example around 7 years ago a mates dad who had work all his life firstly as a butcher (which he owned) and latterly within a homeless hostel within the city centre took seriously ill. Now at the time it was touch and go and once he got slightly better he was advised that he would never walk again and also his eyesight deteriorated significantly.

Now thankfully he was a fighter and he can now shuffle around with a pair of crutches however he has had his money cut as they are now classing him as mobile. Trust me if you saw him you would realise that he is anything but mobile. He must have to take 20 odd tablets a day to ease the pain and assist. Now he has said he would love to work again as he gets bored stupid sitting about the house all day however this is not practical due to his condition would you not agree??

Well they were wanting to try and get him back into work. They say he could do an office job working at a computer. Fair enough he's not on his feet you think. Well how would he get there, what about the fact that his eyesight is shot to pieces and would struggle staring at a computer screen all day not to mention what chance has he got of anyone employing him but hey if he's not making an effort to find work we'll just further cut his money.

Not right in my opinion. Yes target the lazy bastards who haven't worked a day in their life but a common sense approach needs to be used.

And as for the big companies who dodge tax, the bankers who are still getting massive bonuses, the MP's who are still claiming expenses (for things that joe public has to pay for out our own pay) IMO theres more money to be pulled back there than the extra £20 a month that wee mrs smith had been claiming.

Don't get me wrong I'm under illusion that some of these things may still happen under a Scottish government but at least it will be someone me, my friends, family and neighbours have voted in. As I don't know one person who voted for the current government yet that's what we're lumped with.

This is my last post on the matter cause all of this is pointless the only thing that counts is where we decide to put our vote come September 18th. Going round in circles on a st.mirren forum isn't going to change anything.

Ok well first up - as I've pointed out the Coalition Government has been clamping down on tax avoidance schemes - as we've seen with a number of high profile cases including the one at Rangers. They are complex and you'll get mixed results but none the less the government and the HMRC are on the case with those firms and individuals just as much as they are on the case of benefit cheats. Bankers? Well yesterday the Bank of England put in place new rules that will mean that bankers bonuses can be clawed back up to seven years after they've been paid out - it's the right thing to do yet again because it takes out the short term gain for quick financial benefit mantra that appears to have pervaded banking across the world. And MP's? Well those doing wrong were caught. Some were thrown in jail, some had to pay back large sums of money. All proof that the UK system is working.

You say if Scotland becomes independent you'll get the government "we" voted for - but we have got the government the UK voted for. We all live in the UK and a democratic vote amongst our people returned more Conservative MP's than any other party. What you want to do is you want to draw a border a bit closer to home in the hope that those closer to home might return the government you want every election. What happens if they don't? Do you draw the border a bit closer to home? Where does it stop? And at what point do you accept the democratic will of the people around you - instead of trying to manipulate the vote so you can get what you want?

And finally if you are under no illusion that the food banks and poverty will still be an issue after Independence then why use that as a reason to change what has been a very successful partnership. As citizens of the UK our average earnings are the fifth highest in the world. "Poverty" in the UK is nothing like the kind of real poverty that we all associate with the word. Why risk all of that for a step off a cliff to a world where we cannot control our own currency, have no say in what happens with interest rates, or exchange rates, and where we don't know what our trading relationship with the rest of Europe will be or what veto's we can retain to stop Germany, Italy or France dictating to us how we run our country. The current UK government might not be of a hue that you like - but it wasn't that long ago we had successive Scottish Prime Ministers, and successive Scottish Chancellors of the Exchequer with many other Scots holding key positions within the UK government cabinet from the Foreign Office to Defence.

[Big_Mougie]

This is my last post on the matter cause all of this is pointless the only thing that counts is where we decide to put our vote come September 18th. Going round in circles on a st.mirren forum isn't going to change anything.

See above your wasting your time mate. Got better and more important things to do.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Big_Mougie

[Stuart Dickson]

See above your wasting your time mate. Got better and more important things to do.

Yeah well I've said many times before that we've all become entrenched and we know how we are voting and the debate long went past reason. That's a trend that's gone national in Scotland. In many ways it's good news because it means that Scotland is about to deliver a massive kicking to the Nationalists and to the Independence cause and we'll soon all be able to get back to the many benefits that come with being a fully functioning and participating part of the United Kingdom.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The weather has fairly cooled down in the last day or so.

[salmonbuddie]

Yeah well I've said many times before that we've all become entrenched and we know how we are voting and the debate long went past reason.

[salmonbuddie]

Scotland is about to deliver a massive kicking to the Nationalists and to the Independence cause and we'll soon all be able to get back to the many benefits that come with being a fully functioning and participating part of the United Kingdom.

This second part is proof positive of the first part quoted above.

[RickMcD]

See above your wasting your time mate. Got better and more important things to do.

You're a spoilsport. Quite a few of us are really enjoying watching as a not awfully bright non St.Mirren supporter from Wishaw rips the piss out of the Yes brigade and leaves them incandescent with rage. Don't think he's done it intentionally but they've taken the bait hook, line and sinker. He has scored quite well at times along with some awful shite just exactly the same as the Yes men have done.

[oaksoft]

You're a spoilsport. Quite a few of us are really enjoying watching as a not awfully bright non St.Mirren supporter from Wishaw rips the piss out of the Yes brigade and leaves them incandescent with rage. Don't think he's done it intentionally but they've taken the bait hook, line and sinker. He has scored quite well at times along with some awful shite just exactly the same as the Yes men have done.

Is there a No supporter out there capable of acting like anything other than a childish prick?

Have you considered talking to people on here as though they were adults?

[bluto]

Is there an oaksoft out there capable of acting like anything other than a childish prick?

Have you considered talking to people on here as though they were adults?

FIFY, Huffy.

[faraway saint]

Is there a No supporter out there capable of acting like anything other than a childish prick?

Have you considered talking to people on here as though they were adults?

Didn't you say, when I mentioned both sets of "supporters" had descended into point scoring, that wasn't the case?

[faraway saint]

FIFY, Huffy.

Huffy, a great word.

[RickMcD]

Didn't you say, when I mentioned both sets of "supporters" had descended into point scoring, that wasn't the case?

I ignore Oaky because he's a bore. See his stuff sometimes because he's like a bad smell. Can't get rid of it. I realise a post is in some ways for everyone but my post was directed to Big Mougie. I don't believe it was rude in any sense to Mougie and if he thinks I was treating him like a child i would apologise. Seeing Oaky is your chum maybe you could let him know I ignore him.

PS Remember he cancelled Christmas and blamed the weans? Wonder if Halloween and birthdays are in the shitter as well by now. They can cost a few bob too.

[bluto]

The weather has fairly cooled down in the last day or so.

Naw, it husnae!

[RickMcD]

Naw, it husnae!

Will you argue about anything? Or maybe even everything? It hus so!

[bluto]

Will you argue about anything? Or maybe even everything? It hus so!

Not here... at the heart of the UK.