St. Sid Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 ktf, my post is for the attention of 10000hrs. I would ask you not to jump in. Please respect my request. I am one of the undecided with a respectable amount of money available to invest in Saint Mirren. Thank you. To 10000hrs, I look forward to your reply to the questions I posted this afternoon. Jump in...are you trying to have a virtual square go with Richie Rich ya plum. Whilst I have been a big advocate of protecting the Q&A thread from debate you are not really keeping to your end of the bargain by posting points of debate rather than questions. If you want to post opinion on the responses then do so in the debating threads were your points can be treated with the disdain they deserve. I think you have asked a fair enough question about who specifically will be running the bar and asking that again is fair enough. Regarding the business plan you have had your answer. If you want to lambast 10000 hrs because you don't like the answer then do so in the debating threads. If you are serious about investing in the CIC take up the offer of the one to one meeting. It is simple enough - Questions in this thread. Opinions on the response are for elsewhere in the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 Jump in...are you trying to have a virtual square go with Richie Rich ya plum. Whilst I have been a big advocate of protecting the Q&A thread from debate you are not really keeping to your end of the bargain by posting points of debate rather than questions. If you want to post opinion on the responses then do so in the debating threads were your points can be treated with the disdain they deserve. I think you have asked a fair enough question about who specifically will be running the bar and asking that again is fair enough. Regarding the business plan you have had your answer. If you want to lambast 10000 hrs because you don't like the answer then do so in the debating threads. If you are serious about investing in the CIC take up the offer of the one to one meeting. It is simple enough - Questions in this thread. Opinions on the response are for elsewhere in the board. Fuxake. I've been away less than a month and Sid's suddenly a Mod!!!! :ph34r: How....? What the...?!?! Who the...?!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 Fuxake. I've been away less than a month and Sid's suddenly a Mod!!!! :ph34r: How....? What the...?!?! Who the...?!!!! I thought the place seemed oddly pedant free recenly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Fuxake. I've been away less than a month and Sid's suddenly a Mod!!!! :ph34r: How....? What the...?!?! Who the...?!!!! Always a rocker Bluto. More of a billigerent and sometimes fair referee for this particular thread - and cerrtainly no official capacity, although if the rumours are true I am on the take from the CIC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) I thought the place seemed oddly pedant free recenly. More of a billigerent and sometimes fair referee for this particular thread - and cerrtainly no official capacity, although if the rumours are true I am on the take from the CIC. Just to humour ktf... belligerent, recenTly Edited June 8, 2011 by bluto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaside Nipper Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Just to humour ktf... belligerent, recenTly ffsake, c'mon, get it right ! Hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintfan Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 For 10000hrs to reply to. You have confirmed that you are able to provide a business plan however decided not to provide one for public scrutiny for reasons only fully known to CIC and/or RA....this is a concern. If you have complete confidence in your proposal then why not give everyone, not just the funding organisations, the freedom to study the business plan before investing in the CIC? To the question of who will run the new bar. I have asked this question twice and have asked you 'who' they are and are they connected to RA in any way. Twice you have replied yet refused to provide a straight YES or NO. I will break the question down for you one more time as I am sure there will be a few fans interested in your answer. You have confirmed that you know who will be running the new bar....I am asking you if it is anyone connected to RA, a family member or friends etc? The answer is a simple YES or NO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 For 10000hrs to reply to. You have confirmed that you are able to provide a business plan however decided not to provide one for public scrutiny for reasons only fully known to CIC and/or RA....this is a concern. If you have complete confidence in your proposal then why not give everyone, not just the funding organisations, the freedom to study the business plan before investing in the CIC? To the question of who will run the new bar. I have asked this question twice and have asked you 'who' they are and are they connected to RA in any way. Twice you have replied yet refused to provide a straight YES or NO. I will break the question down for you one more time as I am sure there will be a few fans interested in your answer. You have confirmed that you know who will be running the new bar....I am asking you if it is anyone connected to RA, a family member or friends etc? The answer is a simple YES or NO. Still a wee bit too cheeky saintfan. The business plan has commercially sensitive information in it. Repeatedly asking to see it is not going to help you. Accepting the offer to meet in person will help you. Repeating the same question makes you look like Michelle Evans. I think this part of the process is coming close to the point where its success will be announced. Maybe you should hold off until the announcement comes before investing if it is that big an issue for you. To clarify the point about the running of the bar. Perhaps if you could outline what it is specifically about this that would cause you concern. 10000 hrs could have Fred West pulling the pints for all I care so long as he's quick about it. What is it about the potential answer that would stop you investing in the CIC - as it reads like you are just a very naughty boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Still a wee bit too cheeky saintfan. The business plan has commercially sensitive information in it. Repeatedly asking to see it is not going to help you. Accepting the offer to meet in person will help you. Repeating the same question makes you look like Michelle Evans. I think this part of the process is coming close to the point where its success will be announced. Maybe you should hold off until the announcement comes before investing if it is that big an issue for you. To clarify the point about the running of the bar. Perhaps if you could outline what it is specifically about this that would cause you concern. 10000 hrs could have Fred West pulling the pints for all I care so long as he's quick about it. What is it about the potential answer that would stop you investing in the CIC - as it reads like you are just a very naughty boy. Sensational news on Wikileaks!.....Richards 3rd cousin twice removed is going to be running the Bar. Well i don't know about you but thats it for me.....I'm out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Still a wee bit too cheeky saintfan. The business plan has commercially sensitive information in it. Repeatedly asking to see it is not going to help you. Accepting the offer to meet in person will help you. Repeating the same question makes you look like Michelle Evans. I think this part of the process is coming close to the point where its success will be announced. Maybe you should hold off until the announcement comes before investing if it is that big an issue for you. To clarify the point about the running of the bar. Perhaps if you could outline what it is specifically about this that would cause you concern. 10000 hrs could have Fred West pulling the pints for all I care so long as he's quick about it. What is it about the potential answer that would stop you investing in the CIC - as it reads like you are just a very naughty boy. Sensational news on Wikileaks!.....Richards 3rd cousin twice removed is going to be running the Bar. Well i don't know about you but thats it for me.....I'm out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Sid, Saintfan does have a point. 700+ fans expected to be paying 120 quid a year to the cic, without them it doesn't happen. Why should the business plan not be available to them? Just like other funders they may want to know that it isn't going to fail after paying their hard earned cash into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeBud Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Sid, Saintfan does have a point. 700+ fans expected to be paying 120 quid a year to the cic, without them it doesn't happen. Why should the business plan not be available to them? Just like other funders they may want to know that it isn't going to fail after paying their hard earned cash into it. Not disagreeing DavidG however i think if the funding organisations agree the funding package then by and large the business plan must have stood up to scrutiny. However I would hope that the business plan will be available to those wanting to know the ins and outs before too long. What I couldn't give two hoots about is whether the guy "running" the bar is already known to Richard Atkinson or any other CiC or Board Member so long as he has the necessary experience and expertise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Sid, Saintfan does have a point. 700+ fans expected to be paying 120 quid a year to the cic, without them it doesn't happen. Why should the business plan not be available to them? Just like other funders they may want to know that it isn't going to fail after paying their hard earned cash into it. Would rather have the debate on a debating thread, mibbae someone can move the posts including saintfan's nonsense. But anyway: When we were asked to buy shares in the club were we all provided with a detailed business plan to review. Nope. When British Gas was privitised did the government or British Gas publish their business plan for the general public to review....nope, they just told you to "Tell Sid". Business plans are covered under NDA in almost all businesses. Where two businesses embark on a joint project the first thing they do is sign an NDA. Standard business practise. I am quietly confident that NDAs would have been involved in the distribution of the CIC business plan. To ask for it to go on general public display demonstrates a shocking lack of business awareness and smacks of the anti-CIC tactic of trying to turn absolutely nothing into a major scandal. Would any of the anti-CIC brigade care to post their own company's business plan online? Can't wait to see them all as we keep hearing about all this business acumen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Sid, Saintfan does have a point. 700+ fans expected to be paying 120 quid a year to the cic, without them it doesn't happen. Why should the business plan not be available to them? Just like other funders they may want to know that it isn't going to fail after paying their hard earned cash into it. Since this thread is no longer reserved for Q&A, there is a difference between letting people see the business plan and publishing it openly on an internet forum for the world to see. Saintsfan has been offered the chance to meet personally with those who created the plan and has declined. It appears he has no interest on the content but rather in upsetting the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Sid, Saintfan does have a point. 700+ fans expected to be paying 120 quid a year to the cic, without them it doesn't happen. Why should the business plan not be available to them? Just like other funders they may want to know that it isn't going to fail after paying their hard earned cash into it. 700 fans are not "expected" to sign up. We only need 300. The fans who have already signed up have done so not out of stupidity but by sharing the vision of the future of our club under 10000hrs. As Div has explained you can still sign up for the deal after the company gains the controling interest of the club. As the criteria has already been met anyone with reservations can hold fire as the buisness plan will be available after the purchase. I don't know if it is just me but if i had any questions i needed answers to i would take Richard up on his one to one offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintfan Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 For 10000hrs to reply to. You have confirmed that you are able to provide a business plan however decided not to provide one for public scrutiny for reasons only fully known to CIC and/or RA....this is a concern. If you have complete confidence in your proposal then why not give everyone, not just the funding organisations, the freedom to study the business plan before investing in the CIC? An outline business plan would be sufficient. To the question of who will run the new bar. I have asked this question twice and have asked you 'who' they are and are they connected to RA in any way. Twice you have replied yet refused to provide a straight YES or NO. I will break the question down for you one more time as I am sure there will be a few fans interested in your answer. You have confirmed that you know who will be running the new bar....I am asking you if it is anyone connected to RA, a family member or friends etc? The answer is a simple YES or NO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 For 10000hrs to reply to. You have confirmed that you are able to provide a business plan however decided not to provide one for public scrutiny for reasons only fully known to CIC and/or RA....this is a concern. If you have complete confidence in your proposal then why not give everyone, not just the funding organisations, the freedom to study the business plan before investing in the CIC? An outline business plan would be sufficient. To the question of who will run the new bar. I have asked this question twice and have asked you 'who' they are and are they connected to RA in any way. Twice you have replied yet refused to provide a straight YES or NO. I will break the question down for you one more time as I am sure there will be a few fans interested in your answer. You have confirmed that you know who will be running the new bar....I am asking you if it is anyone connected to RA, a family member or friends etc? The answer is a simple YES or NO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 Indeed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) To the question of who will run the new bar. I have asked this question twice and have asked you 'who' they are and are they connected to RA in any way. Twice you have replied yet refused to provide a straight YES or NO. I will break the question down for you one more time as I am sure there will be a few fans interested in your answer. Again the only thing that we can confirm at this point is that the CIC will run the bar. We do have around the 10000hours team a number of ILPH's and indeed we now have another who has e-mailed [email protected] volunteering their services as an ILPH should we need it. We would expect that there will be a number of different people involved in the ILPH side so as to spread the load and cover for sick and holidays. As REA is involved in the CIC then "YES" the people involved in running the CIC bar on match days will be connected but so will hopefully 700+ others be connected as full CIC members. 10000hours CIC Edited June 10, 2011 by 10000hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 Again the only thing that we can confirm at this point is that the CIC will run the bar. We do have around the 10000hours team a number of ILPH's and indeed we now have another who has e-mailed [email protected] volunteering their services as an ILPH should we need it. We would expect that there will be a number of different people involved in the ILPH side so as to spread the load and cover for sick and holidays. As REA is involved in the CIC then yes the people involved in running the CIC bar on match days will be connected but so will hopefully 700+ others be connected as full CIC members. 10000hours CIC International League for the Protection of Horses ??? :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffalo Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 The bar debate is typical of the parochial thought process of some of our fans. Who cares who is running the bar, it is hardly going to be making millions. Also the individual commissioned to run it is unlikely to be on £50k a year. (the bar will struggle to make £20k profit a year.) Also whats wrong with a bit of nepotism, if that is what happens, After all the largest contract we have given to a player in the recent past just so happens to be related to a Director of the club. The business plan whilst not been formally published and issued to all the “so called business gurus” has very much been watered down to laymans terms and published to death on this webpage. If the CiC published projected turnover, P&L accounts them it would be lost on the masses and we would have further debate on “yea but they failed to publish this item or that item”. If you can’t grasp the business plan from whats published then you must be on a blind mission to the moon using Apollo 13. This forum is to debate the merits of the CiC. I still have my reservations but to be fair they tend to be on a personal level rather than a business level. I am fed up with the debate not being constructive and being high-jacked with people who have an agenda. I have waited from signing up to the CiC to see how the debate went. I have yet to see a valid negative reason why I should not sign up. What I have got from that there are the usual detractors who are happy to spread stories dressed up as facts. By contributing to the CiC you will assist in benefiting the Community and in turn will hopefully assist in raising the public profile of our club. In turn the success of the CiC could financially benefit the club. I am also fed up of listening/reading fans who believe that their £10 month is going to the club. But then that’s down to how its been sold by 1000hrs. Remember the Club will survive without the CiC. The CiC will not survive without the Club and its fans so why would they have a Business Plan that could jeopardise their future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 International League for the Protection of Horses ??? :blink: well why not....He loves horses..why should they be left out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 well why not....He loves horses..why should they be left out? maybe thats it.....one of his family is a horse which will run the bar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 The bar debate is typical of the parochial thought process of some of our fans. Who cares who is running the bar, it is hardly going to be making millions. Also the individual commissioned to run it is unlikely to be on £50k a year. (the bar will struggle to make £20k profit a year.) Also whats wrong with a bit of nepotism, if that is what happens, After all the largest contract we have given to a player in the recent past just so happens to be related to a Director of the club. The business plan whilst not been formally published and issued to all the “so called business gurus” has very much been watered down to laymans terms and published to death on this webpage. If the CiC published projected turnover, P&L accounts them it would be lost on the masses and we would have further debate on “yea but they failed to publish this item or that item”. If you can’t grasp the business plan from whats published then you must be on a blind mission to the moon using Apollo 13. This forum is to debate the merits of the CiC. I still have my reservations but to be fair they tend to be on a personal level rather than a business level. I am fed up with the debate not being constructive and being high-jacked with people who have an agenda. I have waited from signing up to the CiC to see how the debate went. I have yet to see a valid negative reason why I should not sign up. What I have got from that there are the usual detractors who are happy to spread stories dressed up as facts. By contributing to the CiC you will assist in benefiting the Community and in turn will hopefully assist in raising the public profile of our club. In turn the success of the CiC could financially benefit the club. I am also fed up of listening/reading fans who believe that their £10 month is going to the club. But then that’s down to how its been sold by 1000hrs. Remember the Club will survive without the CiC. The CiC will not survive without the Club and its fans so why would they have a Business Plan that could jeopardise their future Pretty sensible post there Gruffalo.....no throwing mud or blind optomism. Can i take you up on one issue regarding bar profits? The cic will generate some income on match days which will go towards the debt. Although i think you are underestimating this figure that is not my point. Generating money from a new stadium with the facilities we will create is the real target which will benefit the player budget. It already happens with clubs having really good facilities that can accomodate a range of events. Falkirk generate £1M per annum. We can go higher due to being a cic and having a larger customer base in Renfrewshire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 Remember the Club will survive without the CiC. The CiC will not survive without the Club and its fans so why would they have a Business Plan that could jeopardise their future Great post Gruffalo, but I think you're wrong about this bit. I think there is every chance that 10000hours could and would survive without St Mirren FC and it's fans. It could just move on to another project. There are already many examples of CIC's and SEN's that have been operating successfully right across Scotland. Some are running swimming pools, or sports centres. Some are running bike clubs. And ofcourse we all know about Edinburgh Spartans, Stenhousmuir and Clyde and where they are at too. Indeed 10000hours and their like would be welcomed by all manner of community groups who are looking to become less reliant on grants and public sector handouts and to start generating their own income. If St Mirren miss out I think it's very much their loss. There is massive potential here but if the fans are struggling to see it as more than just a pub then I've got serious doubts the potential will ever be realised. Remember the candidates for election to the respective boards are going to be answerable to Individial Membership, many of whom simply won't / can't see the bigger picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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