The Day Fan Ownership Died!

[St. Sid]

I know this will be met with a few 'Why don't you go and see Richard and talk to him about this' calls, and yes 10000 hours are big on cosy fireside chats.

Good to see you back on factual form somner9....thought you'd flipped after the meltdown on the general discussion boards.

An excellent post; however I want to highlight on of my main issues and that has been the communication process. Your line above pretty much nails it for me.

The communication has very much been one-sided. 10000 Hours have had lots of input from fans. What we want from fan ownership, concerns about how the CIC will work, etc.....there's pages and pages of it on here.....there's been loads of one-to-one meetings....all information going one way. In terms of information going out to ALL fans we have seen marketing documents that are actually sparse on detail on the CIC and how it will work. Instead we are dependent on a network of chinese whispers from people who are perhaps a wee bit compromised by their enthusiasm to get to the finish line.

I keep seeing posts from people like BigFras that they were unsure about it, but they had a chat and now they are convinced. What I am not seeing is any one of the "convinced" fans prepared to post details of how the CIC will actually work. They can't because they simply don't know.

People like GLS who really should know are nowhere to be seen. Have 10000 Hours seriously set a deadline without even having a basic overview document in place for fans to review. What was the big push to be based on. A cheeky wee smile from GLS and we'd all go weak at the knees and shout hurrah for GLS and the CIC...here, take more money out of ban accounts. Are 10000 Hours gambling on being able to wing it at the public meeting? DO they think that because they hold all the information and we have none that they can use that to steamroller the meeting in June?

I want to see fans getting detailed information in Black & White now. Why hasn't that been prepared and ready to go with less than 20 days to go for signing up is pish poor. You make some very good points above....no doubt there'll be a secret squirrel group busy working on some blah, blah to manage that objection away at the meeting. My feeling after every meeting to discuss the CIC is that I have been sold to and the doubts very quickly start to creep in again shortly afterwards.

We need to be able to sit down and review exactly what we are getting ourselves into. The information just isn't there for us to make a genuine assessment of the CIC proposal because at the moment it appears to be a set of objection handling marketing hoo-hah rather than anything tangible that we can discuss.

[Guest somner9]

Some excellent points Doug! I do hope you will be at next weeks meeting to debate these points and challenge 10000Hours.

Sadly as a Smisa member you probably already know they don't want to debate them, they want to scare/cajol enough people to sign DD forms so they can crash ahead with something that will switly fall foul as being officially recognised as a co-op. I tell you the co-op movement hold dearly what differentiates them from PLC's and the decisions, order and manner in which 10000 hours have behaved is that of a PLC.

you can't spend years romancing your friends and business aquaintances, then expect the people funding it to roll up a week before and drag your sorry ass out of the fire.

[davidg]

Somner, since SMISA already have 1877 shares is it not the case that they get all the 1877 club privileges?

Has this question been asked? Just interested to know if they will get this as stated on 10000 hours site.

Cheers.

Edited May 30, 2012 by davidg

[St. Sid]

Sadly as a Smisa member you probably already know they don't want to debate them, they want to scare/cajol enough people to sign DD forms so they can crash ahead with something that will switly fall foul as being officially recognised as a co-op. I tell you the co-op movement hold dearly what differentiates them from PLC's and the decisions, order and manner in which 10000 hours have behaved is that of a PLC.

you can't spend years romancing your friends and business aquaintances, then expect the people funding it to roll up a week before and drag your sorry ass out of the fire.

That has been one of the biggest mistakes. This is supposed to be a community undertaking and yet the people best positioned to offer that guidance to the CIC have been sidelined in favour of the commercially minded. The values that were pitched early on to get peoples buy in appear to have been ditched in favour of commercial considerations. That is reflected in where the money is now coming from. The commercial investors hold all the aces, the community is scrambling for scraps of information beyond soundbites.

The headline values were all community...the behaviour has been all corporate. The fans are effectively getting like for like. Debt is still involved in this takeover only we are paying it out of our own pockets. The people getting all the real benefits such as places on the BoDs are getting their money back.....we do it for the love of the club and fear for the future of the club. And yet we're the ones that haven't got a clue what is going on.

There needs to be a massive upturn in respect for the fans role in this.

[St. Sid]

Somner, since SMISA already have 1877 shares is it not the case that they get all the 1877 club privileges?

Can we no just get a document telling us what the CIC actually is davidg? The point by point blah, blah really isn't doing any good in terms of reassuring people about the CIC.

You're one of the most recently convinced fans. Surely you must have a handle on the latest up to date version of the CIC. Can you not just rattle out some key points for us?

[Guest somner9]

That has been one of the biggest mistakes. This is supposed to be a community undertaking and yet the people best positioned to offer that guidance to the CIC have been sidelined in favour of the commercially minded. The values that were pitched early on to get peoples buy in appear to have been ditched in favour of commercial considerations. That is reflected in where the money is now coming from. The commercial investors hold all the aces, the community is scrambling for scraps of information beyond soundbites.

The headline values were all community...the behaviour has been all corporate. The fans are effectively getting like for like. Debt is still involved in this takeover only we are paying it out of our own pockets. The people getting all the real benefits such as places on the BoDs are getting their money back.....we do it for the love of the club and fear for the future of the club. And yet we're the ones that haven't got a clue what is going on.

There needs to be a massive upturn in respect for the fans role in this.

quite simply Sid if anyone connected with 10000 hours is serious (I don't believe they ever were) about forming a REAL co-operative then they need to start again, and have a members board chosen by the members to vet all the decisions taken thus far, especially the ones that will deprive the club of revenue generation. Can you see that being agreed at the next love-in?

[St. Sid]

quite simply Sid if anyone connected with 10000 hours is serious (I don't believe they ever were) about forming a REAL co-operative then they need to start again, and have a members board chosen by the members to vet all the decisions taken thus far, especially the ones that will deprive the club of revenue generation. Can you see that being agreed at the next love-in?

I certainly believe that we need to see some radical changes to what we have in play currently - for all we actually know about it. SMiSA at the last public meeting was a real head in hands moment for me. Said it early on that SMiSA's involvement at the early stages was a great source of comfort. I think 10000 Hours got lucky as not many people were at the meeting.

It's been pretty much a process of benefit of the doubt, after benefit of the doubt to see where it can take us. The issue I have is that we still have no idea what it actually is. A tradiotional sale can get away with that. A takeover we are funding cannot.

Its the equivalent of someone cold calling you at home and telling you they've got a car for sale....all your mates are buying one.....give me £20,000.00 and you can have one too.......err...what kind of car is it....aye, don't worry about that....how old is it....ach, you can see that when you pick it up.....is it in good condition....er, you can get it checked out after you buy it......hm...send me the service record to review......er...we'll forward that onto you 6 months after you buy it as it's too complicated for non-mechanics. It's not too much to ask to see a car before you buy it.

[BoWSaint]

I certainly believe that we need to see some radical changes to what we have in play currently - for all we actually know about it. SMiSA at the last public meeting was a real head in hands moment for me. Said it early on that SMiSA's involvement at the early stages was a great source of comfort. I think 10000 Hours got lucky as not many people were at the meeting.

It's been pretty much a process of benefit of the doubt, after benefit of the doubt to see where it can take us. The issue I have is that we still have no idea what it actually is. A tradiotional sale can get away with that. A takeover we are funding cannot.

Its the equivalent of someone cold calling you at home and telling you they've got a car for sale....all your mates are buying one.....give me £20,000.00 and you can have one too.......err...what kind of car is it....aye, don't worry about that....how old is it....ach, you can see that when you pick it up.....is it in good condition....er, you can get it checked out after you buy it......hm...send me the service record to review......er...we'll forward that onto you 6 months after you buy it as it's too complicated for non-mechanics. It's not too much to ask to see a car before you buy it.

But if the car is supposedly worth £20k (or will secure your future travel needs forever) and you are asked for a tenner a month and you are not committed to keep up payments and the car isn't from a Nigerian lawyer who wants to rest a few £mil in your account...............

[St. Sid]

But if the car is supposedly worth £20k (or will secure your future travel needs forever) and you are asked for a tenner a month and you are not committed to keep up payments and the car isn't from a Nigerian lawyer who wants to rest a few £mil in your account...............

I'd still want to see it.

[davidg]

SMiSA have 3877 shares. First batch was 1877 followed by additional 2000 purchase.

The BoD refused to sell any more shares to SMiSA after the sale of the Love St ground.

From what I gather from postings on this forum Bryan McAusland and George Campbell did buy additional shares which I assume allowed the Consortium to create a controlling interest. However I'm not sure of the exact dates of this purchase.

The current top ten shareholders according to a post Div made in Dec 2011 are:

I'm not sure how many other shareholders have upwards of 1877 shares - Div may know.

Out of interest how does he have this information when he is not a shareholder himself?

Ok, thanks for that. What about the 1877 members benifits? Has anyone asked if SMISA will get them? Just curious.

[St. Sid]

Ok, thanks for that. What about the 1877 members benifits? Has anyone asked if SMISA will get them? Just curious.

It would be useful if you could clarify the point you are trying to make or expand on your curiousity. I don't see the attraction of an 1877 club membership for SMiSA:

<p>Pricing

• £25000
  

<p>

Life benefits

• Non executive director for as long as you hold 1877 St Mirren shares.
  
• A route to the club board. If a non executive St Mirren Football Club board position becomes available then any Non Executive board member interested in joining will be able to put themselves forward for consideration by all the club shareholders.
  
• Use your 1877 shares to vote at the club AGM and any other shareholder meetings.
  

Benefits that will last 5 years and then be available for a yearly fee

• Access to the directors guest lounge on match days for first year and then purpose built viewing box thereafter.
  
• Free alcoholic and soft drinks and snacks on a match day.
  
• Club suit and tie.
  
• Access to all 87club exclusive events and benefits for 1877 holder and a guest.
  
• Use of the club boardroom during normal office hours for business meetings
  

SMiSA will be able to vote at SMFC AGM's using their existing shares.

A route to the club board. If a non executive St Mirren Football Club board position becomes available then any Non Executive board member interested in joining will be able to put themselves forward for consideration by all the club shareholders.

The above is a very oddly constructed offer that I still haven't heard a decent explanation of. That sounds like all the non-executive board members are already in place? How can that be the case? The "route to the club board" is also oddly positioned in the offer point.

[davidg]

DavidG - I could be cheeky and repeat what you have said before "why don't you ask REA or GLS yourself?"

Sure - I'll ask the question by email to [email protected] and perhaps I might get a reply this time.

From a practical point of view how the hell would the 1877 SRTB Club benefits be shared among 50+ SMiSA members?

http://10000hours.or...ps/nonexecutive

Life benefits

• Non executive director for as long as you hold 1877 St Mirren shares.
  
• A route to the club board. If a non executive St Mirren Football Club board position becomes available then any Non Executive board member interested in joining will be able to put themselves forward for consideration by all the club shareholders.
  
• Use your 1877 shares to vote at the club AGM and any other shareholder meetings.
  

Benefits that will last 5 years and then be available for a yearly fee

• Access to the directors guest lounge on match days for first year and then purpose built viewing box thereafter.
  
• Free alcoholic and soft drinks and snacks on a match day.
  
• Club suit and tie.
  
• Access to all 87club exclusive events and benefits for 1877 holder and a guest.
  
• Use of the club boardroom during normal office hours for business meetings.
  

You wouldn't be cheeky at all, I could ask him but I think he has a few questions to answer as it its....

Just thought I would ask on here to see if anyone else had already asked the question.

Reason I was curious is that it would be good to have a SMISA member on the board.

A SMISA member could be nominated to be a "Non executive director" and a good chance of a SMISA member getting on the board of the football club.

It would be useful if you could clarify the point you are trying to make or expand on your curiousity. I don't see the attraction of an 1877 club membership for SMiSA:

<p>Pricing

• £25000
  

<p>

Life benefits

• Non executive director for as long as you hold 1877 St Mirren shares.
  
• A route to the club board. If a non executive St Mirren Football Club board position becomes available then any Non Executive board member interested in joining will be able to put themselves forward for consideration by all the club shareholders.
  
• Use your 1877 shares to vote at the club AGM and any other shareholder meetings.
  

Benefits that will last 5 years and then be available for a yearly fee

• Access to the directors guest lounge on match days for first year and then purpose built viewing box thereafter.
  
• Free alcoholic and soft drinks and snacks on a match day.
  
• Club suit and tie.
  
• Access to all 87club exclusive events and benefits for 1877 holder and a guest.
  
• Use of the club boardroom during normal office hours for business meetings
  

SMiSA will be able to vote at SMFC AGM's using their existing shares.

A route to the club board. If a non executive St Mirren Football Club board position becomes available then any Non Executive board member interested in joining will be able to put themselves forward for consideration by all the club shareholders.

The above is a very oddly constructed offer that I still haven't heard a decent explanation of. That sounds like all the non-executive board members are already in place? How can that be the case? The "route to the club board" is also oddly positioned in the offer point.

and all the benefits will be available to anybody, including existing shareholders, who hold 1877 shares

My reading is that the 1877 benifits would be given to SMISA at no cost as they already hold >1877 shares?

[St. Sid]

Reason I was curious is that it would be good to have a SMISA member on the board.

A SMISA member could be nominated to be a "Non executive director" and a good chance of a SMISA member getting on the board of the football club.

My reading is that the 1877 benifits would be given to SMISA at no cost as they already hold >1877 shares?

Yet more confusion.....we were being told that because 1877 club members are non-executive directors they would not be on the Board, now we are ebing told they will be on the Board. The sales line in the 1877 club offer suggests that the non-exec board member places are already filled so unless SMiSA have already been allocated a place they won't be getting a board place through that route.

Looking at response on the 10000 Hours forum, which is as sparse on questions as ever, I would tend to agree that the SMiSA would be entitled to an 1877 club membership based on what they have already. However, as with everything CIC related - nobody really knows as its not actually documented and presented anywhere with any clarity - and that is just on one small point within a sales flyer.

[div]

DavidG - I could be cheeky and repeat what you have said before "why don't you ask REA or GLS yourself?"

Sure - I'll ask the question by email to [email protected] and perhaps I might get a reply this time.

If that is the email address you used then that is why you didn't get a response.

Send to [email protected]

[div]

Out of interest how does he have this information when he is not a shareholder himself?

I use a credit checking agency through the business, it gives me access to lots of information about any UK limited company.

[davidg]

Yet more confusion.....we were being told that because 1877 club members are non-executive directors they would not be on the Board, now we are ebing told they will be on the Board. The sales line in the 1877 club offer suggests that the non-exec board member places are already filled so unless SMiSA have already been allocated a place they won't be getting a board place through that route.

Looking at response on the 10000 Hours forum, which is as sparse on questions as ever, I would tend to agree that the SMiSA would be entitled to an 1877 club membership based on what they have already. However, as with everything CIC related - nobody really knows as its not actually documented and presented anywhere with any clarity - and that is just on one small point within a sales flyer.

Bastard, forgot I was dingying you

[Stuart Dickson]

The current named directors of the Douglas Street Limited group are:

Ms Laura Marie Montgomery

Mr Scott McLennan

Mr George Campbell

Mr Allan Walker Marshall

Mr Bryan Allan McAusland

Mr Stewart George Gilmour

Mr Richard Elliott Atkinson

http://companycheck....ompany/SC377210

I've not heard or seen Scott McLennan since the initial 10000Hours meetings. I believe he has a banking background and IIRC he was lined up by REA to be one of the "founding" members along with Tony Fitzpatrick and Jim Mullan, Chris Stewart and Richard Atkinson.

In the new organisation of 10000Hours will there still be this group of "Founders" and what will that entail?

Anyone know who Laura Marie Montgomery is? Perhaps she is related to Mrs Purves?

Is Laura Montgomery not the girl from Glasgow Ladies?

[Stuart Dickson]

Yet more confusion.....we were being told that because 1877 club members are non-executive directors they would not be on the Board, now we are ebing told they will be on the Board. The sales line in the 1877 club offer suggests that the non-exec board member places are already filled so unless SMiSA have already been allocated a place they won't be getting a board place through that route.

Looking at response on the 10000 Hours forum, which is as sparse on questions as ever, I would tend to agree that the SMiSA would be entitled to an 1877 club membership based on what they have already. However, as with everything CIC related - nobody really knows as its not actually documented and presented anywhere with any clarity - and that is just on one small point within a sales flyer.

Is the confusion not with you?

My reading of what is on offer is that as one of the larger shareholders of the 48% minority holding they would be able to stand for election to the St Mirren BoD. The shareholding in the club won't mean they get a 10000hours board place.

[Stuart Dickson]

Could well be: http://www.glasgowci...aMontgomery.htm

Question is why is she named as a Director of this company?

I'm sure that was answered really early on in this process. She was involved in the setting up of the CIC. There was a thread ages ago that listed the directors of Douglas Street just as has been done again today and the same question was asked back then too with a response from REA.

[Big Fras]

This is getting more and more mental/entertaining with every day !

Keep it up lads, and some very well-written arguments from both points of view being set-out. This is what an independent forum is really about, and it's a credit to Div and you lot.

BTW Sid - I still have reservations, but I never thought my £10/month was going to get me a place on the Greenhill Road Politburo. I just wanted to check out that this wasn't going to be a frying-pan/fire situation if the CiC went through (as we were being confidently told it would be). I'd rather be involved than not.

If it is to be a private buyer then I'm sure SG won't sell the club down the Cart to visiting poultry traders from India. I'm also sure that a private investor group would at least be interested in securing additional funding from supporter membership schemes, not to mention increasing the use and efficiency of the stadium within the local community.

[St. Sid]

I'd like to know who has already been allocated all of the places on the non-Exec Board.

I also think there are some big questions around the ethics and perhaps even the legality of the process of non-exec directors being created.

The Board should set out to shareholders why they believe an individual should be appointed to a non-executive director role and how they meet the requirements of the role.

I really don't see how a one page flyer offering inducements for people to invest £25K in shares really fits with the above. And that's before I get started on the bollox posted earlier that it doesn't matter as they are non executive directors. non-exec directors most certainly have a role in the running of a business, and will actually end up with more influence on the SMFC BoD than general CIC members will have.

[Stuart Dickson]

I'd like to know who has already been allocated all of the places on the non-Exec Board.

I also think there are some big questions around the ethics and perhaps even the legality of the process of non-exec directors being created.

I really don't see how a one page flyer offering inducements for people to invest £25K in shares really fits with the above. And that's before I get started on the bollox posted earlier that it doesn't matter as they are non executive directors. non-exec directors most certainly have a role in the running of a business, and will actually end up with more influence on the SMFC BoD than general CIC members will have.

Sid - it's probably cause I'm thick but surely the posts being talked about are the ones that relate to the 48% share ownership of the club - they should and will still be represented on the football board.

[St. Sid]

Is the confusion not with you?

My reading of what is on offer is that as one of the larger shareholders of the 48% minority holding they would be able to stand for election to the St Mirren BoD. The shareholding in the club won't mean they get a 10000hours board place.

Your reading, my reading.....the f'k'n information isn't really there is it Stu....that's the point being made.

The crucial part is "If a non executive St Mirren Football Club board position becomes available"......that could there just aren't any non-exec roles at the moment or it could mean they have already been filled. WE DON'T KNOW because no detailed information is being supplied about how SMFC is going to function moving forward.

[St. Sid]

Sid - it's probably cause I'm thick but surely the posts being talked about are the ones that relate to the 48% share ownership of the club - they should and will still be represented on the football board.

Again, that is being left open to fans assumptions rather than being stated categorically. I reckon it will be in relation to the 48% shareholders. The non-exec roles could be created without going to the general membership. The vote to approve the non-exec applicants would be to all shareholders; however the general members will effectively already have handed over their 52% vote to whoever they've elected. Perhaps the decision to have non-exec directors would be made by the interim BoD before we even get a chance to have a say in it.

Suddenly we have a non-exec board with a legal right to exert influence on the SMFC executive BoD.

The role of the non-exec board would be to:

Role of the Non-Executive Director

Strategy:

Non-executive directors should constructively challenge and contribute

to the development of strategy.

Performance:

Non-executive directors should scrutinise the performance of

management in meeting agreed goals and objectives and monitor the reporting

of performance.

Risk:

Non-executive directors should satisfy themselves that financial information

is accurate and that financial controls and systems of risk management are robust

and defensible.

People:

Non-executive directors are responsible for determining appropriate

levels of remuneration of executive directors and have a prime role in appointing,

and where necessary removing, senior management and in succession planning.

You can end up in a position were we have a non-exec board made up of OF fans that could block the fans directive on the SPL vote based on corporate governance.

This taking just one line in a flyer and looking at the possible implications of it. I don't think we have 650 members that have done their homework to ensure that they are getting what they believe they are getting. What we have is a leap of faith that we are gambling the future of the club on. We need to see the structure of the CIC / SMFC, the decision making processes, a proper risk assessment that includes financial risk as well as other risks, etc. At the moment it is a case of it will all be okay because we get a vote and can make it what we want it to be....bawz!!!

[St. Sid]

Really?

I was led to believe that the Glasgow City Ladies tie in was related to their request for training facilities or a new ground and somehow their path crossed REA's as part of his social enterprise contacts.

That then led to an approach to the BoD on their behalf which then led to the 10000CiC creation/proposal.

I'd like to see the response from REA.

I thought it was the other way around. The Glasgow City Ladies approached REA because they wanted his help in becoming the first ladies club in Scotland (mibbae the UK) to have their own stadium. Pretty sure he was involved with them before us.

Douglas Street is Lorna's only Directorship.