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Poor form!

The purpose of this topic is for 10000Hours to answer questions - so in my opinion it was poor form on your part to answer the question I raised. I should have worded it differently as it caused offence - I'm sorry.

Edited by Yflab

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Can you ignore Somner and answer the questions raised by Div this morning that I cannot see a response to. Apologies if this has been covered already, but there is a lot of chaff to wade through.

sorry did not see the question till you reposted it. give me a minute, Somner9 I will give you another minute to think of an example because the one you just gave is not correct, in your own time

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Guest somner9

The purpose of this topic is for 10000Hours to answer questions - so in my opinion it was poor form on your part to answer the question I raised.

My post was to 10000 hours who were kind enough to reply, I quoted your post as it also alluded to cic debt.

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Guest somner9

sorry did not see the question till you reposted it. give me a minute, Somner9 I will give you another minute to think of an example because the one you just gave is not correct, in your own time

Sorry which bit isn't correct? I've only re-produced statements you've previously made

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Have these questions been answered yet - specifically the last two?

Other revenues come for the CIC trading of the void (this facility also makes the club money too) and other social enterprise activity such as use of the normally unused Physio facilty within a Social Enterprise.

The aditional £600k is repayable between 3 and 5 yeasr depending on other circumstances

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Sorry which bit isn't correct? I've only re-produced statements you've previously made

At all times the CIC or the Club will be the trading entity, if I have said, inferred, suggested, hinted, winked or nudged otherwise then my apologies for miscommunication

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Guest somner9

At all times the CIC or the Club will be the trading entity, if I have said, inferred, suggested, hinted, winked or nudged otherwise then my apologies for miscommunication

So the Cic or the club will pay to fit out the void then? That is a big difference to what you previously said.

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Other revenues come for the CIC trading of the void (this facility also makes the club money too) and other social enterprise activity such as use of the normally unused Physio facilty within a Social Enterprise.

The aditional £600k is repayable between 3 and 5 yeasr depending on other circumstances

This is a very sizeable amount. I appreciate that you must have detailed business forecasts on how this will be achieved.

Could you provide a more detail on the estimated revenues from :

- Void

- Social Enterprise Initiatives

A breakdown of Year1 - Year 5 would be useful to understand how this is projected to grow over time as it will take a period to get things moving.

It would be great if you could supply a few more examples of the types of initiative and void uses would be great to demonstrate that this figure can be achieved.

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So the Cic or the club will pay to fit out the void then? That is a big difference to what you previously said.

Your statement before was who would "control of additional revenue generating opportunities" this will be the CIC or the Club.

The fitting out of the void could come from a bank say, would this mean the bank was in "control of additional revenue generating opportunities" i dont believe so.

That would be like saying that becuase the Club does not actually do the cooking and serving of the food in hospitality but subcontracts it out that it is no longer in "control of additional revenue generating opportunities"

the fact that CIC partners help fund the fit out is entirly different from who is in "control of additional revenue generating opportunities"

which will be the CiC and the Club working with democratically elected members together buidling Club revenues together and enabling the fans to own the club

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Guest somner9

Your statement before was who would "control of additional revenue generating opportunities" this will be the CIC or the Club.

The fitting out of the void could come from a bank say, would this mean the bank was in "control of additional revenue generating opportunities" i dont believe so.

That would be like saying that becuase the Club does not actually do the cooking and serving of the food in hospitality but subcontracts it out that it is no longer in "control of additional revenue generating opportunities"

the fact that CIC partners help fund the fit out is entirly different from who is in "control of additional revenue generating opportunities"

which will be the CiC and the Club working with democratically elected members together buidling Club revenues together and enabling the fans to own the club

So it's still Kibble then, on a peppercorn rent, with the opportunity to generate for themselves significant revenue stream. As agreed and controlled by Cic/Club?

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This is a very sizeable amount. I appreciate that you must have detailed business forecasts on how this will be achieved.

Could you provide a more detail on the estimated revenues from :

- Void

- Social Enterprise Initiatives

A breakdown of Year1 - Year 5 would be useful to understand how this is projected to grow over time as it will take a period to get things moving.

It would be great if you could supply a few more examples of the types of initiative and void uses would be great to demonstrate that this figure can be achieved.

Lets say that it is £600K over 5 years so £120,000 per year and assume nothing else changaes....e.g we get no new members Standard or 87 or 1877 and the only thing we have to generate the revenue is the void, nothing else then what do the numbers look like and how reasonable are they given that worst case senario of nothing else changing.

Lets assume that the only time it is open is for home games then what would the profits need to be at a home game to cover the entire debt.

120,000 / 22 home games (couple of cup games thrown in there)

= £5454 per game

Do we think that in just a bar that could be opened at say 12noon for a 3pm KO and open till late that can hold 600 people can make £5k profit? the answer is actually no but it will make a massive contribution to that £5K and that is only for 22 days worth of trading in one year.

Look at it another way could that sort of space with everything else staying the same e.g very conservative be made to generate £2300 per week profit.

We think the answer is very much Yes and that is before you add in the additional trading opportunities and any increase in membership once we actually have done the deal.

remember the Funders who are putting £500K on the line have been through these discussions.

The forum is not really the place for spreadsheets but if we get accross the line next week to do the deal we will make all this, much finer detail avaliable to the members for the CIC board to review and implement

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So it's still Kibble then, on a peppercorn rent, with the opportunity to generate for themselves significant revenue stream. As agreed and controlled by Cic/Club?

Again No.

The agreement for the Void will be between the CIC and the Club. the CIC then funds what it needs to do from the sources it has open to it.

But even if it was the way you suggest that is the way that commercial enterprises like say SMFC already work. Take the catering services within the stadium, fitted out by the operator and operated by the operator for which a fee is then paid to the Club who owns the asset.

Whether you like it or not that is the way commercial deals that involved the fitting out of void spaces work, any peppercorn element only lasts as long as the depreciation and amrtosation of the increase in value of the assest and at the end of the day the auditors of both Club and CiC will need to approve the transaction and relationship,

there really is nothing to see here but by all means continue to believe that there is some sort of grand conspiracy.

Anyone else that buys the club using Debt Against the Club (which we are not) will need to find revenues to take our of the Club to fund the payment, two rejected proposals from the selling Consortium we believe included the new Owners Directors paying themselves wages (rather than being volunteers as the board is currently) or taking a %age of transfer fees as quasi-agents to fund the debt....we are a million miles away fro this

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Guest somner9

Again No.

The agreement for the Void will be between the CIC and the Club. the CIC then funds what it needs to do from the sources it has open to it.

But even if it was the way you suggest that is the way that commercial enterprises like say SMFC already work. Take the catering services within the stadium, fitted out by the operator and operated by the operator for which a fee is then paid to the Club who owns the asset.

Whether you like it or not that is the way commercial deals that involved the fitting out of void spaces work, any peppercorn element only lasts as long as the depreciation and amrtosation of the increase in value of the assest and at the end of the day the auditors of both Club and CiC will need to approve the transaction and relationship,

there really is nothing to see here but by all means continue to believe that there is some sort of grand conspiracy.

Anyone else that buys the club using Debt Against the Club (which we are not) will need to find revenues to take our of the Club to fund the payment, two rejected proposals from the selling Consortium we believe included the new Owners Directors paying themselves wages (rather than being volunteers as the board is currently) or taking a %age of transfer fees as quasi-agents to fund the debt....we are a million miles away fro this

Best leave the shroud waving bit about other owners alone. (only my advice if you want others to engage)

Yes if i was investing to fit out the void, I'd want a good return. why else would I do it? But the info you have provided at present suggests it could be several years before the entity paying to fit out the void start paying market rent, let alone a profit contribution.

The issue over profit contribution could be offset as you have previously said by the Club/Cic staging events in the void and keeping the proceeds, but there's little clarity about what that will look like? (does the cic/club get allocated %age of premium catering/hospitality time each week/month i.e weekends, weeks up to xmas?)

don't see a conspiracy, but I do want to know how SMFC will actually benefit from this deal?

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Best leave the shroud waving bit about other owners alone. (only my advice if you want others to engage)

Yes if i was investing to fit out the void, I'd want a good return. why else would I do it? But the info you have provided at present suggests it could be several years before the entity paying to fit out the void start paying market rent, let alone a profit contribution.

The issue over profit contribution could be offset as you have previously said by the Club/Cic staging events in the void and keeping the proceeds, but there's little clarity about what that will look like? (does the cic/club get allocated %age of premium catering/hospitality time each week/month i.e weekends, weeks up to xmas?)

don't see a conspiracy, but I do want to know how SMFC will actually benefit from this deal?

I have said dozen of time the following in relation to void and any other revenue for that matter.

If the Club generates the reveue holding an event in the void it keeps it

If the CiC generates the reveneu it keeps it

If they generate it together they equitably split it

Most Landlord/tennant fit out deal take approx two years to wash out to the point that the organisation is then paying a full Commercial rent, i would expect this to take approx the same length of time..

ready to sign up yet?

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Guest somner9

I have said dozen of time the following in relation to void and any other revenue for that matter.

If the Club generates the reveue holding an event in the void it keeps it

If the CiC generates the reveneu it keeps it

If they generate it together they equitably split it

Most Landlord/tennant fit out deal take approx two years to wash out to the point that the organisation is then paying a full Commercial rent, i would expect this to take approx the same length of time..

ready to sign up yet?

yep read that before, but my experience has been unless you have tied down a fair split of the premium opprtunities (weekends, xmas, corporate business) then one or other party loses out or at least appears to lose out.

A fair agreement on those premium opportunities and a ramping up of finding new business could well see all parties very happy to get to a two year wash out point. And I sincerely hope that is the case.

if your proposal goes through then despite what you may believe i want it to work for the benefit of the club, the fans, the community, the cic and its partners.

But I have to say for a biblical man you don't half get your knickers in a twist shock1.gif good luck!

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Well hopefully you can all see, those who take the time to read the real answers to the questions asked rather than assumptions, suppostion or just plain Screenwritter Fiction about the proposal will continue to engage over the weekend, the answers might be a bit slower in coming until Monday but we will continue to answer as best we can.

The CIC is 100% about Community Ownership and Fan Governance

It is 100% One Member One Vote

It is 100% about enabling any fan to engage and end up on the board of the Club they love

It is 100% about sustainabilty, transparency and keeping the Club safe for ever

BUT

It is also 100% dependant on whether you the fans (including me) want it to happen.

So if it is to be 100% about the fans then it is also 100% in our hands to make it happen in the next week, so you and me must encourage all those who are still sitting on the fence believing that the Consortium will last for ever if the CIC does not complete the deal that the "Status Quo" is not a future and the Club will be in new ownership by the 4th of August.

You know who the doubters are you need to get hold of them and convince them like the 10000hours team convinced you

My Preference for the last 3 years worth of work has been that the new owner should be the widest possible fan base.

It really is now about "Whatever you Want"

That ones for Big Fras.

Have a great weekend

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Been a good thread today, some great questions and some detailed answers that have hopefully helped.

My next question is;

Will there be enough money in the CIC to buy Richard a spell checker ? thumbup2.gif

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Been a good thread today, some great questions and some detailed answers that have hopefully helped.

My next question is;

Will there be enough money in the CIC to buy Richard a spell checker ? thumbup2.gif

He just needs to see sense and be convinced that Apple Mac is the way to go...!

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Richard, I think it would be good to outline basic finance figures so that everyone understands the model.

Currently we have;

The bid is for £1.5m.

£0.5m is coming from a social investment fund called Big Issue Invest. Repayable at 8% interest over a total period of 8 years.

£261k is projected to come from 87 members of the 87 members club each paying a £3k lump sum

£225k is projected to come from 9 non-executive 1877 members each paying a £25k lump sum

£900k due to be paid on 4th July coming from the above. Leaving £600k still to pay.

How does the business model cover both the capital and interest repayable to BII and also raising the additional £600k due to be paid ?

The member subs of £7.5k per month would raise £90k per annum.

What else is in the business model as additional revenue streams ?

Over what period is the other £600k repayable ?

I have looked at the 10000 hours site to see who has signed up for what. It looks like only about half the £10 a month subs have arrived. After 2 years and with a week to go it seems unlikly that the £90K figure will be reached.

I cannot now see the figure for 87 club members (how strange) but I thought is was 33. So it's unlikley that target will be reached in a week. The figure for the 1877 club members was a big fat zero the last time I saw it a few days ago. So not much chance of 9 people daft enough to sign up in the last week.

Mr A says "Other revenues come for the CIC trading of the void (this facility also makes the club money too) and other social enterprise activity such as use of the normally unused Physio facilty within a Social Enterprise.

The aditional £600k is repayable between 3 and 5 year depending on other circumstances"

I cannot see how any (legal) enterprise in the void can raise anything like the money need to bridge the vast gap in the financial model even IF (AND IT's A VERY BIG IF) the 3 member categories were fully subscribed. What are "other circumstances" ?

There is no way this scheme can possibly work. Anyone with a calculator can see that - unless I am missing something ?????????????

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If you own shares and are prepared to put them into the CIC just like Gordon and under the same terms then in time yes you can get paid for them at £13.31 This is the whole point it provides both a market in the shares and the abilty for the CIC to buy them also thus increasing the 52% ownership

To be fair to Richard he has had no contact with the other shareholders. I have spoken to two of the largest shareholders outside the consortium and both have expressed an interest in doing what I am doing if it helps make the deal more sustainable. There are no deals in place but it would have been irresponsible for us not to gauge an interest from these people before going down this route.

1) Is there really a market for the small shareholder? What is the likelihood of a small shareholder being able to join the process now and get money in return for their shares, albeit a few years hence?

2) GLS will be owed £202k when the Bii debt is paid off. How much will these other two mystery shareholders be owed if they commit their shares to the CIC?

*********************************

The three largest shareholders outside the consortium (&GLS) are

KENNETH DRUMMOND MCGEOCH,17,154 ORDINARY GBP 0.50

ALLAN MCAUSLAND, 10,000 ORDINARY GBP 0.50

W.W. WATERS, 6,933 ORDINARY GBP 0.50

I wonder which two it will be. whistling.gif

Just speculation but if Allan McAusland & W. Waters were to receive £13.31 for all of their shares that would come to approximately £225k!

Edited by Bud the Baker

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I have looked at the 10000 hours site to see who has signed up for what. It looks like only about half the £10 a month subs have arrived. After 2 years and with a week to go it seems unlikly that the £90K figure will be reached.

I cannot now see the figure for 87 club members (how strange) but I thought is was 33. So it's unlikley that target will be reached in a week. The figure for the 1877 club members was a big fat zero the last time I saw it a few days ago. So not much chance of 9 people daft enough to sign up in the last week.

Mr A says "Other revenues come for the CIC trading of the void (this facility also makes the club money too) and other social enterprise activity such as use of the normally unused Physio facilty within a Social Enterprise.

The aditional £600k is repayable between 3 and 5 year depending on other circumstances"

I cannot see how any (legal) enterprise in the void can raise anything like the money need to bridge the vast gap in the financial model even IF (AND IT's A VERY BIG IF) the 3 member categories were fully subscribed. What are "other circumstances" ?

There is no way this scheme can possibly work. Anyone with a calculator can see that - unless I am missing something ?????????????

Well I've just completed my DD mandate, so that is one more in the potsmile.png

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Well I've just completed my DD mandate, so that is one more in the potsmile.png

The problem for you my friend, is that the pot is so big, with so little in it, that your £10 will not make any difference to the financial model.

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Drew / animal...this threads for questions for 10000 Hours to answer. Why not use the multitude of other threads for your fanny talk? If its not a question - post it elsewhere...if you have an opinion, then form it into a question.

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